Lillabelle getting spayed

[Pets mum]

Just catching up with your thread, so its good to know that Lillabelle is home, and has started to eat for herself, and has hopped round a bit, both good signs. Sorry that they both came home in a wet state, that's not good. Sending lots of healing vibes for your brave girl, hope she's soon back to normal x

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I phoned the vets and put in a complaint about them being wet and the clinical manager will be ringing us back.

We have not checked her stitches yet. Tbh I am worried about getting bit again. How is the easiest way to do this? I don't really want us to pick her up as she hates it so much and goes frantic. I thought maybe lift up her front paws carefully but don't want to pull the stitches. Please could somebun advise me on this. Thanks

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Has she eaten anything yet and passed some poo ? If not it’s essential you speak with a Vet this afternoon as she will need prokinetics and syringe feeding.

3.3 ML/ day of the strength of Metacam you have is TOO MUCH

The maximum she could have is 2 ML

Are you sure you mean 3.2ML and not 0.32ML ?

No 3.2 ml/day. It was originally 1.6mls. I am wrong then. I am finding it so confusing now. I realise you have explained it but I am so tired and out of it from the meds and in pain today I am struggling to work it out. I will just take my advice from you as I know you will give me good advice.

We have only given her 1.6 mls today so far. So shall we just give her 0.4 mls tonight then? We have a 10mls bottle so we should give her 1 mls twice a day from tomorrow then? Just to check before we give her another dose this evening.

I realise 2 mls daily is enough. I was confused still this morning so I worked out that 2 mls daily would probably not be too much so we went for half of the 3.2 mls dose so 1.6 mls and then would check it all once I understood everything and was able to read it all and reply if needed.

 

[Omi]

I phoned the vets and put in a complaint about them being wet and the clinical manager will be ringing us back.

We have not checked her stitches yet. Tbh I am worried about getting bit again. How is the easiest way to do this? I don't really want us to pick her up as she hates it so much and goes frantic. I thought maybe lift up her front paws carefully but don't want to pull the stitches. Please could somebun advise me on this. Thanks

Do you know for sure that she has stitches? Tui had a type of surgical glue for her incision.

Some others might think of why lifting up her front paws isn't a good idea, but I do remember that when Tui went to the vets for her 5 day check, my vet used this method to have a look.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Do you know for sure that she has stitches? Tui had a type of surgical glue for her incision.

Some others might think of why lifting up her front paws isn't a good idea, but I do remember that when Tui went to the vets for her 5 day check, my vet used this method to have a look.

We dug out the heavy duty gauntlets and I picked her up by chest and bottom. She growled and tried to run but I felt much safer with the gauntlets. She does have stitches and they look very dry and clean so far so that is good anyway

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I realise now 1 ml/kg is the MAXIMUM dosage recommended. I thought it was the recommended amount generally. I have got confused but I will not give her any more meds this evening until hear from yourselves that it would be ok to do do.

I apologise not answering everybun and am just answering imporrant questions.

We just had some dried plantain delivered and they are both chomping it happily.

 

[InspectorMorse]

No 3.2 ml/day. It was originally 1.6mls. I am wrong then. I am finding it so confusing now. I realise you have explained it but I am so tired and out of it from the meds and in pain today I am struggling to work it out. I will just take my advice from you as I know you will give me good advice.

We have only given her 1.6 mls today so far. So shall we just give her 0.4 mls tonight then? We have a 10mls bottle so we should give her 1 mls twice a day from tomorrow then? Just to check before we give her another dose this evening.

We cannot legally tell you or anyone else what dose to give a prescription only medication. None of us are qualified Vets. All we can do,is give references to published data about dosing. An example being the link I posted to the article published on the RWAF website.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

We cannot legally tell you or anyone else what dose to give a prescription only medication. None of us are qualified Vets. All we can do,is give references to published data about dosing. An example being the link I posted to the article published on the RWAF website.

Yes I get that. I just found all the mls/kg and mgs/kg confusing last night. The vet agreed a 3.2mls daily based on me questioning it but really his initial prescription dose of 1.6mls wasn't much less than the accepted 2 mls dosage on here. But no of course you are not a qualified vet as you say.
But I feel you are all more rabbit savvy than some vets. I just want what is best for my buns at the end of the day. Thank you for your help in this. Sorry if I have stressed you all out that I would give her an overdose or something. I was aware that 2mls is acceptable as Chief got 1mls twice a day for his neutering.

Do you think this means that the new vet we have is rabbit savvy after all then? But then there is the issue of them coming home wet. And Mischief all brown ☹

I think I will see how they deal with the complaint I put in. I was agreeable and calm with the reception who took down my complaint and thanked her for her help x

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Just a photo to show how they look relaxed together now ❤

 

[Pets mum]

Just a photo to show how they look relaxed together now ❤

Aw they both look very comfy together

 

[bunny momma]

They both look very comfortable in the photo. They do look huggable!
I am glad you will have enough pain med to last until her appointment.
Her drinking so much should help her to clear the GA meds from her system.
I am glad you worked out her pain meds. The 1.6 ml per day dose is 0.5mg/kg which is within the normally prescribed range per the link Jane shared. It is very confusing because, like you said, most vets do under prescribe pain meds for rabbits. It sounds like your vet listened to you before standing their ground on giving anything higher. I think that is a positive. I wonder if the vet knew how wet Mischief was when he left for home.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

They both look very comfortable in the photo. They do look huggable!
I am glad you will have enough pain med to last until her appointment.
Her drinking so much should help her to clear the GA meds from her system.
I am glad you worked out her pain meds. It is very confusing because, like you said, most vets do under prescribe pain meds for rabbits. It sounds like your vet listened to you before standing their ground on giving anything higher. I think that is a positive. I wonder if the vet knew how wet Mischief was when he left for home.

I know! So fluffy

Yes so obviously 2 mls per day is 5 days worth at that dose. But her next visit to the vets to get her checked over will be on Monday (as 3 days post op is a Sunday) so we have enough until then. Should I just keep the dose at 1mls twice a day total 2 mls daily? Or is it recommended by rabbit savvy people like yourselves to lower the dose after say 3 days? I don't want to give her more pain meds than she needs either.

I am glad she is drinking loads. It will be good to flush the meds out which is then of course good for the liver and the kidneys. Does anaesthetic make them thirsty after? I forgot to say they can use an extra saline bag if needed when we took her in. Would it have made a difference for a spay?

I would like the chance to talk to the vet and I could tell him I was under the impression that 5 mls/kg was the amount rabbits should have. But I realise that is the kind of top level to go to for extreme pain. And explain we have been giving her 2 mls daily ever since. And also give us the chance to find out how rabbit savvy he seemed to be. The vets there have been very good up til now.

Well the vet was in the building but whether he knew they were put in the carriers wet I do not know. But just to clarify, my buns don't wee/poop usually in their carriers. And the carriers were dry. It was the bunnies that were wet. Well Mischief was wet but Lillabelle was slightly wet.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

A quick update...

Lillabelle has eaten this evening 2 stalks of dill and 1 of parsley. A nibble on hay. A little dried plantain. And 2 loops. And some more dried plaintain.

In the day she has had a little fresh veggies at breakfast time and a few pellets. And a nibble on plantain.

She has been drinking. About 40 mls since this morning. And she seems good in herself. Much less in pain than last night. She has been trying to beg like a mear cat for a fruit loop when we go in there so we don't want her to pull her stitches. So we gave in twice! But now we just go hastily out the cage and she stops. She even did a quarter binky earlier!

Mischief has got a bit bull in a china shop getting a bit lively earlier. Charged up the cage twice. But when we open the cage to let him out he looks at Lillabelle, looks back at us, then charges over to Lillabelle. Is this common where rabbits like to stick that closely to their mate? And to show protection over their mate? We notice it a lot when we do things to one rabbit they get a little feisty with us and show they are concerned what we are doing to their mate. I did not know this happened with rabbits before now as I have never owned a pair before. The bond is really tight isn't it? ❤

 

[InspectorMorse]

What is Lillabelle’s poo output like? Output is just as important as input when monitoring gut motility

it sounds as though her recovery is progressing normally, as long as she is pooing and weeing OK.

Yes, some bonded Rabbits will be protective of each other. But sometimes this ‘protection’ is driven by them thinking the mate is getting food, so they want to make sure they are not missing out. The behaviour would need to be witnessed by us for us to say for certain what is going on with MC and L

I would try to cut out all treats ASAP and offer a pellet from their daily ration or a bit of veg/herbs from their daily ration instead. It will be so beneficial to the health of them both to get some weight off them. You might find that in doing so Mr C‘s breathing improves a lot. Also, being overweight increases the risks for any future GAs. From your other thread it sounds as though Mr C will need another dental at some stage. So a slow and steady weight loss starting from now would be a great help

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

What is Lillabelle’s poo output like? Output is just as important as input when monitoring gut motility

it sounds as though her recovery is progressing normally, as long as she is pooing and weeing OK.

Yes, some bonded Rabbits will be protective of each other. But sometimes this ‘protection’ is driven by them thinking the mate is getting food, so they want to make sure they are not missing out. The behaviour would need to be witnessed by us for us to say for certain what is going on with MC and L

I would try to cut out all treats ASAP and offer a pellet from their daily ration or a bit of veg/herbs from their daily ration instead. It will be so beneficial to the health of them both to get some weight off them. You might find that in doing so Mr C‘s breathing improves a lot. Also, being overweight increases the risks for any future GAs. From your other thread it sounds as though Mr C will need another dental at some stage. So a slow and steady weight loss starting from now would be a great help

Just firstly to check...is it normal for the tummy where the stitches go to be bright red? Otherwise her stitches look normal. She is now agile like usual and seems full of energy which I guess is good?

Mischief never normally growls like that or puts himself in front of her and he doesn't want to leave her. He hasn't left the cage since the first day even though we open the gate for him. He does usually bowlin for treats and yes he is still like that over food.

My OH is learning how to give meds to her but she is rather feisty so he gave her some in a slice of banana which she has eaten. And the last bit he managed to get in her with a bit of trial and error.

Her poos are slightly small and a bit wetter than normal but she is pooing regularly. Her poos are smaller than Mischief's and there were plenty of poops from both. She is weeing loads. It is drying slightly salmon pink. Is that probably from fresh veg she ate this morning. She managed half her usual amount but I guess this is a normal progression in to eating normally?

They normally just have hay in the day. Should we provide other foods to eat? It is very difficult as she won't eat much when we are in the cage but MC steals it when we go. He is loving this eating extra and I'm worried about him piling on more gs! ☹

Yes we will stop the treats. I think she is holding out for them sometimes and we gave her 2 loops a day so it may fill her up? We realise they need to lose weight now. We are going to cut their dry herbs meal at night to just a small handful each of dandelion leaves and plantain to share just so the transition is not too quick for them.

So yes no treats or dry herbs and veggies until they lose the weight x

 

[Omi]

Just firstly to check...is it normal for the tummy where the stitches go to be bright red? Otherwise her stitches look normal. She is now agile like usual and seems full of energy which I guess is good?

Mischief never normally growls like that or puts himself in front of her and he doesn't want to leave her. He hasn't left the cage since the first day even though we open the gate for him. He does usually bowlin for treats and yes he is still like that over food.

My OH is learning how to give meds to her but she is rather feisty so he gave her some in a slice of banana which she has eaten. And the last bit he managed to get in her with a bit of trial and error.

Her poos are slightly small and a bit wetter than normal but she is pooing regularly. Her poos are smaller than Mischief's and there were plenty of poops from both. She is weeing loads. It is drying slightly salmon pink. Is that probably from fresh veg she ate this morning. She managed half her usual amount but I guess this is a normal progression in to eating normally?

They normally just have hay in the day. Should we provide other foods to eat? It is very difficult as she won't eat much when we are in the cage but MC steals it when we go. He is loving this eating extra and I'm worried about him piling on more gs! ☹

Yes we will stop the treats. I think she is holding out for them sometimes and we gave her 2 loops a day so it may fill her up? We realise they need to lose weight now. We are going to cut their dry herbs meal at night to just a small handful each of dandelion leaves and plantain to share just so the transition is not too quick for them.

So yes no treats or dry herbs and veggies until they lose the weight x

How much weight do they each need to lose?

I would certainly cut out all of the treats from now. How many pellets do they each get per day? Rather than cut those out entirely, I would gradually reduce them until they each have the equivalent of an eggcupful per day. It may seem hard, but as Jane says, it would be so beneficial for their health. You will probably find that they will eat more hay too, when their tummies are less full with no treats and reduced pellets. More hay will also be better for their health.

I actually don't think you would need to or should cut out the dried herbs or veggies. I would feed each of those at the times when you would normally feed treats. They would also provide some good nutrition for them.

I'm sure you'll find that if you make the changes gradually, which is better for them anyway, they won't notice. I would also weigh each of them once a week, so that you can monitor how the diet changes are working.

 

[tonibun]

I am glad to hear L is recovering well and I think it is normal for the wound to look red at this stage. It will lessen as each day goes by. Keep an eye on it though. You can only do so much in order to get the weight off a Rabbit as obviously you still have to feed them. I know it isn't easy.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

How much weight do they each need to lose?

I would certainly cut out all of the treats from now. How many pellets do they each get per day? Rather than cut those out entirely, I would gradually reduce them until they each have the equivalent of an eggcupful per day. It may seem hard, but as Jane says, it would be so beneficial for their health. You will probably find that they will eat more hay too, when their tummies are less full with no treats and reduced pellets. More hay will also be better for their health.

I actually don't think you would need to or should cut out the dried herbs or veggies. I would feed each of those at the times when you would normally feed treats. They would also provide some good nutrition for them.

I'm sure you'll find that if you make the changes gradually, which is better for them anyway, they won't notice. I would also weigh each of them once a week, so that you can monitor how the diet changes are working.

Well the vet did not say as we only spoke to the nurse and she said he did not say. It is confusing as the vet at PDSA said they both did not need to lose weight.

However I did think Chief is still too big but I thought Lillabelle was ok as you can feel her ribs easily enough but the vet said she has a little fat in her when he opened her up to do the spay.

I think I will ask the vet on Monday about this. Lillabelle was 5kgs and Chief is 5.6kgs which means he has put on 200gs since last time at vets.

We have been feeding him a little pellets since then as he has noticed when Lillabelle gets hers now. He had stopped all his pellets to lose weight. Lillabelle has 22gs of pellets per day which is an eggcupful based on checking on google.. Do I reduce this now then? And stop giving Mischief pellets at all?

They currently have a cereal bowl up to the rim of fresh veggies in the morning and at 6pm every day. They were getting a measured amount of 4 pots of dried veggies, flowers and herbs which I get from Natures grub. A pot is equivalent as a large handful. So basically 4 large handfuls. Which we feed them at 11pm before bed. Other than that they get 2 types of hay. One is a meadow hay we get in half bales locally from a horse feed shop and the other is a soft hay with rose and plantain which they love.

They do eat hay and both eat hay through the day but I think they could eat more. I am thinking of reducing the dried food so that they are not so full and eat more hay. Should I reduce the dried food down by half and stick to dandelion leaves and plantain? Are the flowers and other food very fattening?

We only give them treats in the evening around 8pm to 10pm. They are at their worse then. They beg constantly and jump on the bed. They terrorize us then scrabbling at the bed and picking up our stuff. They are big rabbits when they turn into the mob! Or Mischief will next to me on the floor and scratch at the bed and chew the bedclothes and my clothes! Or just stare at me with this 'mummy I'm starving' look and look so cute.

They were having a fruit loop and a fibrestick each. We started giving them treats again after the PDSA vet said they were a good weight. I really need a rabbit savvy vet I can trust to feel them and say how much weight they need to lose. I will ask on Monday when they have their check. Hopefully they will be able to give us an idea.

I have already cut back their green veggies and they usually finish them or go back within the hour to finish them. I also cut down their dried herbs by a third. They had lost weight really well. Then I felt that Lillabelle was losing weight a little quickly. Inspector Morse advised me to give her a handful of pellets which we started to do. We got up to 22g slowly until I felt she wasn't losing weight anymore.

How will I know they are the correct weight plus also lose the fat around their organs? Is it a case of them slowly losing weight and getting trim as such? I realise I need to weigh them regularly so I need to find a way I can weigh Lils as we call her or L as Jane said. Easier than writing Lillabelle every time.

Thank you for your help. They have been losing weight and eating more hay since I reduced their veggies and dried herbs. I think if I reduce the dried herbs a little more plus stop their treats then they will lose it slowly. I will weigh them to see how they do x

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

How much weight do they each need to lose?

I would certainly cut out all of the treats from now. How many pellets do they each get per day? Rather than cut those out entirely, I would gradually reduce them until they each have the equivalent of an eggcupful per day. It may seem hard, but as Jane says, it would be so beneficial for their health. You will probably find that they will eat more hay too, when their tummies are less full with no treats and reduced pellets. More hay will also be better for their health.

I actually don't think you would need to or should cut out the dried herbs or veggies. I would feed each of those at the times when you would normally feed treats. They would also provide some good nutrition for them.

I'm sure you'll find that if you make the changes gradually, which is better for them anyway, they won't notice. I would also weigh each of them once a week, so that you can monitor how the diet changes are working.