Lillabelle getting spayed

[twistedtiggerz69]

Sending so many vibes I hope it all goes well!

Also I agree, I wouldn't use the shirt unless I absolutely had to, I've never had to before. I've had 5 females spayed and never had any problems with them bothering the area, and tbh proper pain meds is the real key here to avoiding that imo.

Yes we are not going to although the vet said they will put it on her if she chews her stitches. We forgot hours so probably another £20 we will have to pay plus when I told the nurse that Lillabelle bit me when trying to catch her to do her claws she said they will do that aswell if she needs them doing. So another £20! But I checked them and they were still too near the quick for me to cut them safely imo

I can easily see this ending up near £200 ☹

Some great news though. Apparently we have a vet who is looked at as the bunny specialist in the practice. Apparently he just loves bunnies so I am hoping I won't need to go over pain meds yet again. AmI right in saying 1mg per pound of weight? Lillabelle is 5.1kg So is that 5.1ml per day? Or 7.6 mg/kg? Just to check I have this right before we go to vets!

Thank you Graciee x

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

We dropped them off fine with the vets. As I said already we have a reall good rabbit savvy vet apparently so hopefully all will be well and we can agree on the dosage of Metacam.

They are due their 6 monthly check. We pay monthly as VIP so they get injections included in that plus free 6 monthly checks. I have specifically asked them to check Chief's eyes to see if they are doing well with the drops. Also his ears as he gets ear wax and his ears are too long to clean easily but I asked if they would give us more Suralan to get rid of the wax as it worked last time. Also to check his breathing is ok now I am sieving out the herbs.
Lillabelle has had a clean bill of health so far so
I will let you all know how she is later when they are back home. Hopefully they are both fine and settle in the cage with no issues and they both eat after being at the vets pretty quickly

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Hi everybun

So we have picked them both up now and waiting for a taxi. Lillabelle was fine throughout although took a while eating so the nurse syringe fed her and then she did eat a little. Plus she is drinking and peeing/pooping fine.

Both had their 6 monthly checks. Lillabelle had no issues other than weight. Mischief's eyes were fine and they have given us an ear cleaner for the wax build up in his ears. His teeth have slight burrs so we will need to monitor him. He had his teeth done in October so only 7 months ago. Is that fairly usual? He also has a slight rasping when breathing so we need to monitor that aswell and if it gets worse we need to take him back.

So their weight...basically the nurse said
they are both still overweight. He didn't weigh Chief but he needs to lose more and the nurse couldn't give me an amount they each need to lose. So I'm thinking bring them back to the vets again for a weight check. How soon should I do this?

The nurse said that the vet found lots of fat in her tummy I feel so guilty and have overfed them bith too much!

And then we discussed analgesia.

 

[KCG]

Do you mean Lillabelle? Or that I am a black belt in karate and a little bunny got under my guard

Well the vet said they will put a suit on if she starts chewing the stitches but otherwise it is left to us to battle with her if she needs it

We went to see Abigail which is a horror about a little girl ballerina/ vampire. Just a blood fest really. Very disappointing!
❤

Hahaha omg looks like Lillabelle looks like her mother
And I didn't know what to say about the movie selection, I hope you like horror movies

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Yes I like a good horror 'good' being the operative word xx

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Right so the nurse said the Loxicom prescription is 10mls. This is to be given starting tomorrow once daily at 1.6mls. Her weight is currently 5kgs so I said that seems too low as clinical studies have proved that rabbits metabolise this in the liver quicker than dogs do (I checked that it was the dog one). I said the dose recommended is seemed to be 1 ml/kg or or 1.5 mg/kg.

The nurse then said that is awfully high for a rabbit and then I showed her the first article you sent me Jane (thank you) and she read it quickly then went off to speak to the vets. After a long interval the nurse came back and said that he understands why I would think that is too little but he is not prepared to give the dose I suggested but will be prepared to up that dose to 3.2mls daily. He said there are concerns it causes kidney damage.

The nurse then said we are recorded in this room so if you decide to give Lilabelle a larger dose that will be at your discretion so you know. I said yes we realise this is our decision and we realise this is being done even though not agreed by the vet.

I really feel I let her down as I did not know how to back up what I had said and answer about the kidney damage being possible. I need to know more about rabbits I feel

I then questioned the 3 days and the nurse said if your rabbit appears to be in pain then we will discuss whether she needs it at the time when you have your 3 day check up. But ours is 4 as falls on a wedkend. To that I said but how will I know she is in pain? Rabbits hide their pain as it is seen as a weakness in the wild. How will she tell me she is in pain? But she just said I'm sorry the vet will see you again in 4 days unless you have concerns about her not eating or problems with the stitches.

I have left there already planning to ring our local PDSA whether they would be prepared to give Lillabelle more Loxicom. I will ring them tomorrow

 

[Graciee]

Right so the nurse said the Loxicom prescription is 10mls. This is to be given starting tomorrow once daily at 1.6mls. Her weight is currently 5kgs so I said that seems too low as clinical studies have proved that rabbits metabolise this in the liver quicker than dogs do (I checked that it was the dog one). I said the dose recommended is seemed to be 1 ml/kg or or 1.5 mg/kg.

The nurse then said that is awfully high for a rabbit and then I showed her the first article you sent me Jane (thank you) and she read it quickly then went off to speak to the vets. After a long interval the nurse came back and said that he understands why I would think that is too little but he is not prepared to give the dose I suggested but will be prepared to up that dose to 3.2mls daily. He said there are concerns it causes kidney damage.

The nurse then said we are recorded in this room so if you decide to give Lilabelle a larger dose that will be at your discretion so you know. I said yes we realise this is our decision and we realise this is being done even though not agreed by the vet.

I really feel I let her down as I did not know how to back up what I had said and answer about the kidney damage being possible. I need to know more about rabbits I feel

I then questioned the 3 days and the nurse said if your rabbit appears to be in pain then we will discuss whether she needs it at the time when you have your 3 day check up. But ours is 4 as falls on a wedkend. To that I said but how will I know she is in pain? Rabbits hide their pain as it is seen as a weakness in the wild. How will she tell me she is in pain? But she just said I'm sorry the vet will see you again in 4 days unless you have concerns about her not eating or problems with the stitches.

I have left there already planning to ring our local PDSA whether they would be prepared to give Lillabelle more Loxicom. I will ring them tomorrow

I'm not a vet ofc and I'm not suggesting you do anything.. But 1ml per kg is very high imo.

For a rabbit her weight I'd be looking at 2ml twice a day.. Based on what we used for our buns..

So I'm not sure what to suggest really, is that 3.2ml once a day? I really think buns need metacam twice a day tbh.

Is this vet not rabbit savvy?

For how to know she's in pain, if she is she'll probably stop eating and look uncomfortable and potentially mess with her stitches.

It's very tricky when the vets isn't rabbit savvy

Main thing is she should be okay til tomorrow morning so hopefully that gives you some time to consider stuff and see how she is etc

So weird saying you're being recorded too, she sounds so nervous

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Then we got home. The nurse said Mischief is a bit wet from knocking the water bowl and we just thought nothing of it. When we got Chief out he was soaked around his belly, bottom and legs. And it was all brown!

My OH had just put him down in the cage and he had left brown paw prints everywhere! I then said 'why is there brown all over the pad and towel?' and I asked Phil to pick Chief up to see him brown and wet everywhere. He was white when we took him to the vets so we know it wasn't us.

So we then spent ages trying to clean him up. I knew he would not cope with a wash down in the bathroom so I just wiped him over with baby wipes to try and clean him up. We also had no rabbit towels clean as had used some in the cage and last night used one on the bed while we checked them over so that was hanging up drying after being in the wash.

So we towelled him down as much as we could then I cuddled whilst he was wrapped in a towel to keep him warm as we dryed him off. My OH had to change the pad in the cage and some bedding. Luckily he had put him on the pad so was fairly easy to do.

But then we get to Lillabelle. My OH put her on the pad and she was quiet and looked like she wanted to just sleep. I felt her on her front paws and to the side of her tummy where I knew it would have no stitches and she was damp aswell. Not anywhere near as Chief as he has really long fur on his chest and stomach and it was all soaked.

But we discussed it and knew it would be too stressful for her to pick her up tonight and try and dry her. And we were too worried about pulling her stitches. She was lying on the pad so we thought it would dry her out pretty quickly. We have put the heater on to warm her up plus shut the window.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Lillabelle has been eating since. A strand of parsley. And Phil has given her water. She drank 40 mls in one go and she just keeps drinking loads at a time. She is really thirsty! Is that normal?

I forgot to say to give her extra saline if she needs it. And I forgot my pad of questions for the vet this morning as so tired!

They do seem fine atm but that is face value. Chief is kicking off atm every time we go near Lillabelle and trying to boss my OH out the way and pouncing and growling at him. And scrabbling at the floor and chewing the pad. I think he is stressed about Phil going in by Lils as Chief quietens down when he goes. However my OH is giving her water which she keeps drinking rapidly.

The room is warm now and she has food by her and water near aswell. But my OH is also making sure she keeps hydrated by giving her water via a water bottle until she can drink out the bottle herself. She has not moved. I don't know if she is in pain and whether they gave her enough pain relief until tomorrow. She is not moving but not sleeping. She does not looked very relaxed either. Is this normal?

My brain does not work well any more due to meds or whatever plus I was tired and I realised after a few things I should have noticed. The Loxicom box says she is 2.3 kgs aswell. Plus they did not give me a break down of what drugs she has had today either.

I feel very anxious about Lillabelle which is not helping my MH. I feel angry about the condition they were sent home in. And I don't know what to do about whether to check the stitches are dry but I know it would be too stressful to her right now.

I will be looking into other vets in the area again for a rabbit savvy vet. This has all tsken me ages to write as a type with one finger plus I am tired and drowsy. I will read other posts but may not be able to answer any more tonight.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I'm not a vet ofc and I'm not suggesting you do anything.. But 1ml per kg is very high imo.

For a rabbit her weight I'd be looking at 2ml twice a day.. Based on what we used for our buns..

So I'm not sure what to suggest really, is that 3.2ml once a day? I really think buns need metacam twice a day tbh.

Is this vet not rabbit savvy?

For how to know she's in pain, if she is she'll probably stop eating and look uncomfortable and potentially mess with her stitches.

It's very tricky when the vets isn't rabbit savvy

Main thing is she should be okay til tomorrow morning so hopefully that gives you some time to consider stuff and see how she is etc

So weird saying you're being recorded too, she sounds so nervous

Thank you for your reply Graciee. I am sorry to you and everybun else for writing so long but wanted to include everything. I know I write too too much

Yes that is 3.2ml once a day. I remember this vet provided Mischief 1 ml a day and we went to PDSA instead who prescribed him 2mls twice a day but he weighed around 6 kgs then. I remember it as it was such a jump.

I don't know if 3.2mls daily is enough for her to not be in pain. I would split that into 2 doses otherwise she would be in more pain as the full dose a day wore off.

We tried all the vets when Mischief had an ear infection and PDSA advised us to find a rabbit savvy vet to clean his ears. This one was the only one who appeared to be rabbit savvy but I feel I have to educate them! They gave us a post op care for rabbits sheet. On there it says if the rabbit has diarrhoea or vomiting to contact us. And yet I know rabbits don't vomit. Maybe I am nit picking but I am fuming that they sent them away wet! Especially after she has abdominal surgery and stitches!

We have decided to stick with PDSA for now and look for a rabbit savvy vet. But in the meantime do I complain to this vet? Or stay on their books in case we need them? I will see what PDSA say tomorrow and go from there.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Lillabelle has drunk water out a little bowl since and washed her face. Then she had a massively long drunk from the water bottle which is attached to the cage right beside her. I don't remember Mischief being anywhere near as thirsty. Is this normal? She is drinking nonstop! She seems to be perking up a bit now though.

And now she is lying with her legs back out with her beau so I hope we can relax for tonight. I will keep an eye on her overnight

 

[InspectorMorse]

Re Meloxicam, I think you are confusing mg and ml

also you don’t say which strength Meloxicam you were given

the 0.5mg/ml -ie 1ML = a 0.5MG dose

or the 1.5mg/ml- ie 1ML = a 1.5MG dose

if you were given the 0.5mg/ml the amount you’d need to give IN MLs would be MORE then if you were given the 1.5mg/ml

Dosage​

(this is the dose text from the current edition of the BSAVA formulary, 8th Edition)​

Small mammals: Rabbits: 0.3 – 0.6mg/kg subcutaneously (underneath the skin) or by mouth every 24 hours; (this equates to 0.2 – 0.4ml/kg, i.e. millilitres of liquid per kilogram of your rabbit’s body weight if using the dog liquid.) Studies have shown that rabbits may require a dose exceeding 0.3mg/kg every 24 hours to achieve optimal plasma levels of Meloxicam over a 24-hour interval.
Doses of 1.5mg/kg per day (1ml per kilo of the dog liquid) subcutaneously or by mouth were well tolerated in healthy rabbits in good hydration for 5 days.

Drug Focus: Meloxicam

Read Richard Saunders' Meloxicam Focus Piece today. Explore Dosage, Uses, Risks and more.

rabbitwelfare.co.uk

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Probably. I get muddled sometimes when I'm tired.

The strength is the dog one. 1.5 mg/ml.

I thought 1 ml/kg so would be 5 mls for Lillabelle if she is 5kg.
Have I got this wrong then?

 

[InspectorMorse]

Probably. I get muddled sometimes when I'm tired.

The strength is the dog one. 1.5 mg/ml.

I thought 1 ml/kg so would be 5 mls for Lillabelle if she is 5kg.
Have I got this wrong then?

So, for the 1.5mg/ml the dose RANGE in ML is 0.2ml/kg- 0.4ml/kg which equates to 0.3MG of the active ingredient Meloxicam/kg of Rabbit up to 0.6MG of the active ingredient Meloxicam/kg of Rabbit. The daily dose can be given once every 24 hours or split into 2 12 hourly doses. IME it tends to give a more consistent analgesic cover over a full 24 hour period if given in 12 hourly doses

You say that Lillabelle weighs 5kg

So she could have a dose RANGE of from 1ML up to 2ML.

The 1ML being the lowest therapeutic dose and in my UNQUALIFIED opinion not enough to provide adequate analgesic cover post major abdominal surgery such as a spay.

in cases of severe pain doses of 1.5mg/kg (1ML/kg) have been clinically proven to be tolerated in well hydrated Rabbits for up to 5 consecutive days

So if Lillabelle were to be considered to have significant pain then as long as she was well hydrated a RABBIT SAVVY Vet might prescribe 5ML of Meloxicam daily for up to 5 days.

You asked about how to identify pain in Rabbits. The info here might be useful to read

Pain Management for Rabbits

Learn about effective pain management for rabbits. Explore expert advice and resources to ensure the well-being and comfort of your furry friends. Dive in now

rabbitwelfare.co.uk

This is a webinar I’d recommend listening to

Pain management in Rabbits – more than just Meloxicom | Veterinary Videos & Podcasts | The Webinar Vet

Pain management in rabbits has often been overlooked due to poor identification of pain in prey species. This webinar will aim to describe the signs that rabbits show whe

thewebinarvet.com

and this is the ‘Grimace Scale’




*DISCLAIMER* I do NOT have any qualifications in Veterinary Medicine and I am not advising you to act against advice given to you by a qualified Vet. Doing so would be at your own discretion

 

[Graciee]

Probably. I get muddled sometimes when I'm tired.

The strength is the dog one. 1.5 mg/ml.

I thought 1 ml/kg so would be 5 mls for Lillabelle if she is 5kg.
Have I got this wrong then?

Yea what Jane has written is exactly my thoughts, 5ml (of the dog strength) would be a very very high dose.

Which can be used if needed ofc, but seems overkill for the current situation. My vet prescribed 2ml twice a day for a very small rabbit I had, so this was a very high dose for his weight, but it was needed and only used for a couple of days. Only a vet can make that call tho.

I had a 5.5kg rabbit and she was prescribed just over 2ml twice a day for after a surgery.

I doubt any vet would prescribe 5ml for a rabbit who's 5kg after a spay as a starting dose. But ofc I'm not a vet!

 

[Omi]

How is Lillabelle this morning? It sounds to me as though her behaviour on return from the vets was very similar to how I remember Tui being after her spay. Sending her lots of vibes.

I hope you managed to get some rest as well last night.

 

[bunny momma]

It was good to read Lillabelle is at home and improving. Though it was disturbing to read he was brown in addition to being wet. Why would the water be brown, unless he got wet and was resting on a pile of poo or he pooed in the water. Did Lillabelle pick up the wetness from Mischief?

I agree that a dose of 1ml (1.5 mg) per kg is very high. The only time my vet ever prescribed that dose was for Heidi's aggressive terminal cancer, though Heidi is on it long term which carries more risk of organ damage.

Lillabelle gets 3.2 ml of 1.5mg/ml which means she is getting 4.8mg once a day. If she weighs 5kg, that means she is getting .96mg/kg. This dose is already higher than average.

Sending lots of positive vibes for all.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I am a bit confused really with all the ml and mg amounts. I realise it depends on the weight and 5 mls is probably too much for a spay. So is 3.2mls per day ok for her then? I am giving it in 1.6ml doses twice a day. If so I can cancel my request to talk to someone from PDSA.

Lillabelle had a long night. She was in a lot of pain. As in the grimace scale I saw her ears back (as far as her long lopped ears would go) and her eyes were slit like and her face elongated. I did not see the grimace scale until later. She was sat very still and only moved to drink water from the bottle.

When we had to change her mat we tried to gently coax her to move by gently pushing on her bottom but she refused to move. When we tried to move her sideways she cried out in pain every time. So eventually my OH had to do it around her and very slowly had to pull her away from the corner by sliding her along on the dirty pad.

She drank continuously as if she was really thirsty. Like every few minutes drinking loads. She only ate that parsley stalk all night. Mischief guarded her closely and would not leave her even when the door was open. He went to the door, looked out, and ran fast back to Lils.

We tried her with foods but she was obviously in a lot of pain

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Yes Mischief came back wet and dirty. We believe he must have knocked the water bowl over on to his poops in the cage they shared. I don't understand why they would send him home soaken wet underneath.

They were in seperate carriers but Lillabel was wet aswell but we could not lift her to check how wet as she was in so much pain and got aggressive if we went near her. She dried out quickly though as room was quite warm though not hot.

Today she is looking a bit better. She has eaten some greens, a few pellets and a little hay. Last food she ate was around 2. She is still drinking loads. She is still sitting still most of the time although she has hopped about a bit. She is weeing loads and has done a few poops today.

Mischief is still guarding her and growls at us when we go near bless him.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Has she eaten anything yet and passed some poo ? If not it’s essential you speak with a Vet this afternoon as she will need prokinetics and syringe feeding.

3.3 ML/ day of the strength of Metacam you have is TOO MUCH

The maximum she could have is 2 ML

Are you sure you mean 3.2ML and not 0.32ML ?