Neutered male rabbit, Urinary issues

[SarahS]

Hi there, I'm new to this forum and looking for advice about my male rabbit please . My rabbit has been having issues for several weeks with a urine soaked tail and legs. He has been tested for UTI, calcium and kidney issues and the vet stated his urine sample was unremarkable. He diagnosed idiopathic urinary incontinence and put him on Propalin Syrup to tighten up the bladder sphincter. He's been on this since Friday of last week and it doesn't seem to have helped. The vet said if it does work it would work quickly.
My rabbit doesn't seem in pain or unwell at all. His behaviour has changed in that he will urinate and defecate anywhere in the house now whereas before it was just in one small corner of his hutch. He has also been spotted stealing dry cat food which I'm told isn't an issue but feel it's worth mentioning. I'm not sure of his actual age as he's an adoptee but would say he is at least 5 year of age. Any advice would be appreciated thanks!

 

[a reader of books]

Hi and welcome. I'm just wondering if it's maybe possbile that he's soaked in pee because he can't take a proper peeing position due to pain? I know you said he doesn't seem to be in pain, but that could possibly be a symptom of pain. He could be peeing and pooing all over the house because getting into the litter box might hurt him somehow? Just a thought.

Also, I would keep the cat food out of his reach. Cat food is really not appropriate for bunnies as they can't process meat.

 

[Shimmer]

I would make sure the cat food is out of reach - it won't be helping. 4
Did the vet check for arthritis and other issues that may affect his mobility?
EC is the other thing that springs to mind - you could discuss the option of a course of Panacur with your vet. It's a very commonly carried parasite that can cause various symptoms, often when the rabbit is stressed.
Has anything else happened or changed in or near the household recently? There could be a strange cat in the garden, foxes, builders next door, etc. Anything that causes stress can affect behaviour such as litter training.

 

[SarahS]

Hi reader of books, thanks for your reply we explored that as a possibility a few weeks ago and he was on loxicom to relieve any potential pain but it didn't seem to alleviate the issue. His hutch is almost at ground level and he jumps triple the height to get back in for food . I havent noticed him assume the normal peeing posture for a while though so I might reintroduce the loxicom. His issues seemed to start with runny poo before Christmas followed by constipation. We struggled to get him to eat any but greens for a few weeks. He's back eating hay now but his droppings have always seemed smaller and stickier since those issues.

The cat food is well out of his reach now!

 

[SarahS]

I would make sure the cat food is out of reach - it won't be helping. 4
Did the vet check for arthritis and other issues that may affect his mobility?
EC is the other thing that springs to mind - you could discuss the option of a course of Panacur with your vet. It's a very commonly carried parasite that can cause various symptoms, often when the rabbit is stressed.
Has anything else happened or changed in or near the household recently? There could be a strange cat in the garden, foxes, builders next door, etc. Anything that causes stress can affect behaviour such as litter training.

Hi Shimmer the cat food is out of harm's way now . He gave him a good thorough examination and got down on the floor with him. I think the Panacur option is a good one to try I had considered EC but the vet thought not.
No changes other than the issues he had with his bowels near Christmas time where had the runs and then constipation. His droppings have never seemed the same since then but he's going lots. He lives with two cats who he is familiar with.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Is he neutered ?

Did the Vet rule out EC from the results of PCR blood testing or did the Vet just make an assumption in the absence of more typical EC symptoms such as head tilt ?

Did the Vet check for any signs of loss of feeling in his hind legs/back feet/toes ?

Did the Vet check for any penile retraction/foreskin problems ?

A genetic condition called a split penis can occur. It is present from birth and with aging some Bucks can start to dribble urine as a result of the split penis.

 

[SarahS]

Is he neutered ?

Did the Vet rule out EC from the results of PCR blood testing or did the Vet just make an assumption in the absence of more typical EC symptoms such as head tilt ?

Did the Vet check for any signs of loss of feeling in his hind legs/back feet/toes ?

Did the Vet check for any penile retraction/foreskin problems ?

A genetic condition called a split penis can occur. It is present from birth and with aging some Bucks can start to dribble urine as a result of the split penis.

Hi Inspector Morse

They only ruled out EC from a lack of symptoms and the fact that no more signs or symptoms have emerged in the 3 months + this has been happening.

He examined him anatomically and stated that he didn't think the issue was related to a problem with his penis. We also explored hind leg paralysis and felt if there was some loss of sensation there would be more signs and symptoms by this stage .

Should I be returning to ask for more tests to be run? Or asking for a second opinion?

Many thanks

 

[InspectorMorse]

Hi Inspector Morse

They only ruled out EC from a lack of symptoms and the fact that no more signs or symptoms have emerged in the 3 months + this has been happening.

He examined him anatomically and stated that he didn't think the issue was related to a problem with his penis. We also explored hind leg paralysis and felt if there was some loss of sensation there would be more signs and symptoms by this stage .

Should I be returning to ask for more tests to be run? Or asking for a second opinion?

Many thanks

Firstly, sorry I misread the thread title and missed that you stated then he is neutered. Hence why I asked such a daft question !

Was it just a urine test the Vet did, or did he/she run a full blood profile too ? If only a urine test was taken I would want a full blood profile run as that is needed to fully assess renal function.

Whilst EC often does present with other more common symptoms sometimes an active infection can just present as vague malaise and something like a loss of litter tray habits or incontinence.

Is your Rabbit maintaining a stable weight ?

If he hasn’t had a 28 day course of Fenbendazole (Panacur) then I would want to do this, but do discuss it with your Vet first. We are not qualified to advise you to treat your Rabbit. A PCR blood test for EC would only give titre levels not definitively confirm a diagnosis. But very high titres in combination with some symptoms would make an active infection highly likely. Given that the treatment would still be the same if high titres were found-ie a 28 day course of Fenbendazole then IMO you might just as well give the treatment. Even if it isn’t EC a one off course of Fenbendazole won’t do any harm. I always give any new Rabbit I bring in a one off 28 day course of Fenbendazole as a matter of routine to control EC. Over 50% of Rabbits are asymptomatic carriers, so it could be assumed that any apparently well Rabbit has the potential to bring EC into the environment.

If you do go ahead with giving Fenbendazole I advise using the 10% Liquid rather than the paste. The liquid contains the same active ingredient (Fenbendazole) , is easier to get a weight specific dose (0.2ml/kg/day),is far more economical and perfectly safe. It just hasn’t gone through the full licensing process to enable it to be sold stating it’s specifically for Rabbits. Hence the paste is a lot more expensive but in no way superior or safer.

If EC is involved your Rabbit’s incontinence might well show significant improvement after just a few days of treatment, but a full 28 day course should still be given.

 

[SarahS]

Firstly, sorry I misread the thread title and missed that you stated then he is neutered. Hence why I asked such a daft question !

Was it just a urine test the Vet did, or did he/she run a full blood profile too ? If only a urine test was taken I would want a full blood profile run as that is needed to fully assess renal function.

Whilst EC often does present with other more common symptoms sometimes an active infection can just present as vague malaise and something like a loss of litter tray habits or incontinence.

Is your Rabbit maintaining a stable weight ?

If he hasn’t had a 28 day course of Fenbendazole (Panacur) then I would want to do this, but do discuss it with your Vet first. We are not qualified to advise you to treat your Rabbit. A PCR blood test for EC would only give titre levels not definitively confirm a diagnosis. But very high titres in combination with some symptoms would make an active infection highly likely. Given that the treatment would still be the same if high titres were found-ie a 28 day course of Fenbendazole then IMO you might just as well give the treatment. Even if it isn’t EC a one off course of Fenbendazole won’t do any harm. I always give any new Rabbit I bring in a one off 28 day course of Fenbendazole as a matter of routine to control EC. Over 50% of Rabbits are asymptomatic carriers, so it could be assumed that any apparently well Rabbit has the potential to bring EC into the environment.

If you do go ahead with giving Fenbendazole I advise using the 10% Liquid rather than the paste. The liquid contains the same active ingredient (Fenbendazole) , is easier to get a weight specific dose (0.2ml/kg/day),is far more economical and perfectly safe. It just hasn’t gone through the full licensing process to enable it to be sold stating it’s specifically for Rabbits. Hence the paste is a lot more expensive but in no way superior or safer.

If EC is involved your Rabbit’s incontinence might well show significant improvement after just a few days of treatment, but a full 28 day course should still be given.

Hi again inspector morse

He hasn't had a blood test so that's the next thing I'll request. His weight has remained fairly stable. He lost a small amount of weight around Christmas due to a change in diet which he hasn't regained as he will no longer eat nuggets. Despite that he has a really good appetite.

I will give the Propalin until the end of the week and see if there is improvement if not I will go back to the vet and ask for blood tests for renal function and EC. Thanks for your help and advice!

 

[a reader of books]

Hi reader of books, thanks for your reply we explored that as a possibility a few weeks ago and he was on loxicom to relieve any potential pain but it didn't seem to alleviate the issue. His hutch is almost at ground level and he jumps triple the height to get back in for food ��. I havent noticed him assume the normal peeing posture for a while though so I might reintroduce the loxicom. His issues seemed to start with runny poo before Christmas followed by constipation. We struggled to get him to eat any but greens for a few weeks. He's back eating hay now but his droppings have always seemed smaller and stickier since those issues.

The cat food is well out of his reach now! ��

Oh, I see! Sounds like he doesn't have any trouble getting into his litter area, then. :lol: Since you haven't noticed him assume the normal peeing position in a while, you might want to look into that, yeah, and try the loxicom again, or ask your vet if maybe trying a higher dose would be useful? One of my arthritic bunnies can easily jump onto high things, but she struggles with peeing in the normal position. That's odd that his issues seemed to start with runny poo and constipation... I'm glad he's back to eating hay now, though that's strange that his droppings are still smaller and stickier. It sounds like he's having quite some issues! Has the vet checked his poo for parasites?

I'm glad he can't reach the cat food anymore!

 

[InspectorMorse]

Hi again inspector morse

He hasn't had a blood test so that's the next thing I'll request. His weight has remained fairly stable. He lost a small amount of weight around Christmas due to a change in diet which he hasn't regained as he will no longer eat nuggets. Despite that he has a really good appetite.

I will give the Propalin until the end of the week and see if there is improvement if not I will go back to the vet and ask for blood tests for renal function and EC. Thanks for your help and advice!

A full blood profile is definitely what I would be requesting, this would check kidney and liver function as well as other haematological parameters which could be pointers toward any disease process. A specific blood test is required to test for EC Titre levels. You might find it useful to read this information about EC.

https://www.dovepress.com/encephali...-manageme-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-VMRR

If you proceed with giving a 28 course of Panacur I would suggest buying it online as it will be a lot cheaper than buying it from the Vet and many Vets will only dispense the paste for Rabbits, which adds even more to the cost. I buy my Panacur from here

https://www.animeddirect.co.uk/panacur-small-animal-10-oral-suspension-100ml

You will need some 1ml syringes to administer the treatment. 1ml syringes are always useful to have in a Rabbit First Aid Kit

I buy mine from here

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ciringe-Di...5&sr=1-1-30c649cd-33b6-49d1-9f8b-8035bb525ef9

 

[SarahS]

Oh, I see! Sounds like he doesn't have any trouble getting into his litter area, then. :lol: Since you haven't noticed him assume the normal peeing position in a while, you might want to look into that, yeah, and try the loxicom again, or ask your vet if maybe trying a higher dose would be useful? One of my arthritic bunnies can easily jump onto high things, but she struggles with peeing in the normal position. That's odd that his issues seemed to start with runny poo and constipation... I'm glad he's back to eating hay now, though that's strange that his droppings are still smaller and stickier. It sounds like he's having quite some issues! Has the vet checked his poo for parasites?

I'm glad he can't reach the cat food anymore!

I was tempted to restart the Loxicom last night but wasn't sure if this could be taken alongside Propalin? He seems so thirsty since starting the Propalin syrup and is not better from a urinary perspective. I am tempted to ditch the Propalin tonight and restart the Loxicom instead.

No on the parasite front so I think a blood test and Panacur is the next step.

Thanks for your advice

 

[SarahS]

A full blood profile is definitely what I would be requesting, this would check kidney and liver function as well as other haematological parameters which could be pointers toward any disease process. A specific blood test is required to test for EC Titre levels. You might find it useful to read this information about EC.

https://www.dovepress.com/encephali...-manageme-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-VMRR

If you proceed with giving a 28 course of Panacur I would suggest buying it online as it will be a lot cheaper than buying it from the Vet and many Vets will only dispense the paste for Rabbits, which adds even more to the cost. I buy my Panacur from here

https://www.animeddirect.co.uk/panacur-small-animal-10-oral-suspension-100ml

You will need some 1ml syringes to administer the treatment. 1ml syringes are always useful to have in a Rabbit First Aid Kit

I buy mine from here

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ciringe-Di...5&sr=1-1-30c649cd-33b6-49d1-9f8b-8035bb525ef9

Hi again, thanks so much for the information. I'm calling the vets again tomorrow regarding the Propalin syrup not having the desired effect (it seems to be making him excessively thirsty too) and discuss the above. My concern is that the vet is not an expert in rabbits and I'm wondering if I should source a new vet who is more experienced in rabbit care. The veterinary website states they treat exotic pets so how would I know which vet is the correct one to treat rabbits?

Do I need to test for EC or could I proceed with the Panacur without a blood test?

Many thanks

 

[InspectorMorse]

Hi again, thanks so much for the information. I'm calling the vets again tomorrow regarding the Propalin syrup not having the desired effect (it seems to be making him excessively thirsty too) and discuss the above. My concern is that the vet is not an expert in rabbits and I'm wondering if I should source a new vet who is more experienced in rabbit care. The veterinary website states they treat exotic pets so how would I know which vet is the correct one to treat rabbits?

Do I need to test for EC or could I proceed with the Panacur without a blood test?

Many thanks

Rabbits are classified as Exotics, so you’d need to request you see the appropriate Vet at the practice or you could request a referral for a second opinion. Are you in the UK ? If so if you state your approximate geographical location we might be able to recommend a Practice. For example if in the London area the RVC Beaumont Sainsbury is excellent, especially Nadine Stapleton

https://www.rvc.ac.uk/small-animal-vet/general-practice

The RWAF also have a list of Rabbit Savvy Vets

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/recommended-rabbit-friendly-vets/

Excessive thirst isn’t listed as a possible side effect of Propalin

https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/productinformationdatabase/files/SPC_Documents/SPC_118373.PDF

It is a symptom of renal problems though

As I said before, we are not qualified to advise you whether to medicate your Rabbit with Panacur, but if it was my own Rabbit I know my own Vet would say to do the 28 day course even without a prior blood test.for EC

I would still have the full blood profile though as you need to know what renal function is like especially if the Rabbit is remaining on Loxicom.

 

[SarahS]

Rabbits are classified as Exotics, so you’d need to request you see the appropriate Vet at the practice or you could request a referral for a second opinion. Are you in the UK ? If so if you state your approximate geographical location we might be able to recommend a Practice. For example if in the London area the RVC Beaumont Sainsbury is excellent, especially Nadine Stapleton

https://www.rvc.ac.uk/small-animal-vet/general-practice

The RWAF also have a list of Rabbit Savvy Vets

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/recommended-rabbit-friendly-vets/

Excessive thirst isn’t listed as a possible side effect of Propalin

https://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/productinformationdatabase/files/SPC_Documents/SPC_118373.PDF

It is a symptom of renal problems though

As I said before, we are not qualified to advise you whether to medicate your Rabbit with Panacur, but if it was my own Rabbit I know my own Vet would say to do the 28 day course even without a prior blood test.for EC

I would still have the full blood profile though as you need to know what renal function is like especially if the Rabbit is remaining on Loxicom.

Hi thanks again for your advice I am in East Lancashire. I have read on a few veterinary websites re:excessive thirst caused by Propalin and it has only just started since I started him on medication. Prior to this he was a poor drinker despite having both a bottle and a water dish. We always add water to his green veg.

I'll ring my vet again after work and request everything you have suggested. If anything he has become worse on the Propalin .

Thanks again.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Hi thanks again for your advice I am in East Lancashire. I have read on a few veterinary websites re:excessive thirst caused by Propalin and it has only just started since I started him on medication. Prior to this he was a poor drinker despite having both a bottle and a water dish. We always add water to his green veg.

I'll ring my vet again after work and request everything you have suggested. If anything he has become worse on the Propalin ��.

Thanks again.

I hope your Vet can help. You are obviously doing all you can to try to help your Rabbit. Rabbit health problems can be really stressful to deal with as they often seem to involve a lot of ‘detective’ work to try to find out what is actually going on. And to think some people believe that Rabbits are easy Pets to care for ! Not IME, my Rabbits are far harder to care for than my dog !!