Bonding Pip to her new friend

[Mervinius]

I think I would give it a try with a larger space at the weekend. I know that this is contrary to some views, which will advise to keep the bunnies in a smallish space until completely settled, but I personally think it's good for either one to be able to run away if being chased. It will also provide more interest for them. Frustration or irritation isn't after all good for relationships.

You'll be there to intervene if necessary too. I would anticipate that it might cause a slight reaction when you first open up their space, but that long term it might be beneficial.

If it's a disaster, you can always go back to the smaller space.

Thanks Omi,

The rescue bonder thinks we should try extending the space too. I'm working Friday and out in the evening. So I think it will have to be the weekend. I think he needs to release some energy, I gave him a ball with a bell in it which he chucked around lots and I called him a good boy which he likes and chucks it around more. So I think that gave him something to focus on.
How much would you extend the pen by?
I was thinking making it 1.2m by 1.8m which is another 2 panels.
Or I could double it and make it 1.8x1.8m?

 

[Omi]

Thanks Omi,

The rescue bonder thinks we should try extending the space too. I'm working Friday and out in the evening. So I think it will have to be the weekend. I think he needs to release some energy, I gave him a ball with a bell in it which he chucked around lots and I called him a good boy which he likes and chucks it around more. So I think that gave him something to focus on.
How much would you extend the pen by?
I was thinking making it 1.2m by 1.8m which is another 2 panels.
Or I could double it and make it 1.8x1.8m?

I'd double it.

 

[Scrappy's Little Helper]

Oh gosh, I had a very similar dilemma when I was bonding Fudgie and Scipio. I bonded them in the kitchen and I kept them in there 24/7 for quite a few days. I was very unsure about expanding the space because I didn't think they were quite settled as he was still nipping and chasing and she was extremely wary of him.

My main worry was that they would get frustrated being stuck in the small space for too long and take it out on each other, leading to a fight. Or Fudgie might "snap", also potentially leading to a fight. But if I gave them more space before they were ready, would they still end up fighting? All roads seemed to lead to a mega dust up!

In the end I decided to take a chance and start expanding. My primary reasons were that it would be better if Fudgie had space to get away from him when he was feeling chasey, and she might also start to relax more once she started to get back on familiar territory.

Despite my misgivings, expanding the space did work for them. They didn't kick off, but if they did there was always the option, as Omi says, to reduce the space down again.

I should say while I was agonising over what to do, the "I Predict a Riot" song was an almost constant ear worm. I now pass that ear worm gift over to you...

 

[Mervinius]

Oh gosh, I had a very similar dilemma when I was bonding Fudgie and Scipio. I bonded them in the kitchen and I kept them in there 24/7 for quite a few days. I was very unsure about expanding the space because I didn't think they were quite settled as he was still nipping and chasing and she was extremely wary of him.

My main worry was that they would get frustrated being stuck in the small space for too long and take it out on each other, leading to a fight. Or Fudgie might "snap", also potentially leading to a fight. But if I gave them more space before they were ready, would they still end up fighting? All roads seemed to lead to a mega dust up!

In the end I decided to take a chance and start expanding. My primary reasons were that it would be better if Fudgie had space to get away from him when he was feeling chasey, and she might also start to relax more once she started to get back on familiar territory.

Despite my misgivings, expanding the space did work for them. They didn't kick off, but if they did there was always the option, as Omi says, to reduce the space down again.

I should say while I was agonising over what to do, the "I Predict a Riot" song was an almost constant ear worm. I now pass that ear worm gift over to you...

thanks for the ear worm!

I'm busy this morning, but off this afternoon/evening. Would it be a good idea to try expanding later and see how they are tonight? Unfortunately we are both working Friday and I'm out in the evening. So we wouldn't be able to monitor them on Friday.
I'm not sure how long it would take them to settle again after expanding? We did it on the second night they came home and it only took a few hrs

 

[joey&boo]

I too would try more space. It worked for my 2 as well. We also had some aggressive chases ...they were very full on & fast anyway...but Chinook is good at getting away so we only got 2 post bonding fur pulls (I assume, she was doing a tufty moult at the time).

 

[joey&boo]

how are your wee terrors?

 

[Mervinius]

how are your wee terrors?

What you mean these cuties pies? .
We decided to clean them out and expand the pen on Saturday morning in the end. They now have 1.2m x 1.8m and they've been very well behaved so far.
Pip did her first flop since we've had her home and Bumble did a few mini binkies. So I think they like their extra space.

Pip has lost nearly all her litter training which I expected. She is also definitely doing revenge pees. We refused to give her a treat last night she turned around and peed right next to us.

Later on my partner was in the pen with them and made a tunnel for them to run through ( her favourite game) but Bumble ran through to. She looked at Dan and peed right next to his head. . So not sure she's accepting of Bumble bonding with her Dad and playing tunnels.

We have being having a few issues with Pip and her Cecos. It started before she went away to hols. We kept finding them squished on the floor where she'd stand on them and the odd butt nugget is getting stuck to her butt floof.
When they returned from the rescue both their poops were wetter and larger and her cecos were less formed i think. But its hard to tell when they've been squished.
Anyway I watched her today and she can def eat them from her butt, and she easily jumps into the litter tray and on top of the house no problem at all. So if she has got arthritis it must be mild. She doesn't have incisors so i know that can make it harder for older buns to reach them?
I hoping it will all settle down because she has had a stressful few months which must have affected her gut and I know she ate slightly different veg and treats at the rescue.

But is this normal for an older bun? We are checking her bum regularly and we saw Bumble cleaning it for her. We also wondered if she's deliberately leaving them to mark territory?
We have reduced her treats to check if its diet, but I don't think it can be that because theirs treats are mainly forage.

 

[joey&boo]

they are a funny pair Eddy gets grumpy with us if we pet Chinook for more than a few seconds without petting him.. Good to hear they are enjoying the expansion of their space.

i think there are all kinds of reasons why buns miss cecos. Younger buns its more likely to be too much of something even tastier, like nuggets. older more likely to be arthritis (remembering they will have variable pain/mobility on different days), antibiotics....I haven't heard of buns using cecos as bonding weapons but it wouldn't entirely surprise me. given her recent changes & that she is agile I'd stick with your plan. Have your vets mentioned arthritis before? I can imagine its less of an issue with tiny buns compared to big buns

 

[Mervinius]

they are a funny pair Eddy gets grumpy with us if we pet Chinook for more than a few seconds without petting him.. Good to hear they are enjoying the expansion of their space.

i think there are all kinds of reasons why buns miss cecos. Younger buns its more likely to be too much of something even tastier, like nuggets. older more likely to be arthritis (remembering they will have variable pain/mobility on different days), antibiotics....I haven't heard of buns using cecos as bonding weapons but it wouldn't entirely surprise me. given her recent changes & that she is agile I'd stick with your plan. Have your vets mentioned arthritis before? I can imagine its less of an issue with tiny buns compared to big buns

I can imagine Eddy getting grumpy about a lack of pets.

Yeah I'm thinking it might be the start of arthritis, I have noticed she sits slightly differently to Bumble not always but sometimes.

No the vets haven't mentioned it, but I'm going to ask him to check her in April when I get Bumble vaccinated.

 

[Omi]

Excellent news that they didn't react badly to having their space enlarged.

How are Bumble's litter tray habits?

My feeling with Pip's issues with litter training is that it's very likely due to the length of time that her environment hasn't been settled and so she has resorted to times when she feels she needs to behave in a territorial way. Whether the issue with her cecos can be explained in the same way, I'm not sure, but I suspect it could be. It's entirely possible that she has some Arthritis at her age, but if she can jump on to things, it's possibly not severe. And if she can easily reach her cecos, Arthritis might not be the main cause. I think any issues because of a change of food at the rescue should have resolved by now. The treats could be the issue, but if she's always had them, then that's probably unlikely. Cutting them out completely for a few days would enable you to judge accurately.

Personally I would hold off coming to a definite conclusion as to the cause until they have been settled in their permanent space for a couple of weeks at least.

When do you plan to enlarge their space further? I very much doubt that you would have any issues if you were to do it sooner rather than later.

 

[Mervinius]

Excellent news that they didn't react badly to having their space enlarged.

How are Bumble's litter tray habits?

My feeling with Pip's issues with litter training is that it's very likely due to the length of time that her environment hasn't been settled and so she has resorted to times when she feels she needs to behave in a territorial way. Whether the issue with her cecos can be explained in the same way, I'm not sure, but I suspect it could be. It's entirely possible that she has some Arthritis at her age, but if she can jump on to things, it's possibly not severe. And if she can easily reach her cecos, Arthritis might not be the main cause. I think any issues because of a change of food at the rescue should have resolved by now. The treats could be the issue, but if she's always had them, then that's probably unlikely. Cutting them out completely for a few days would enable you to judge accurately.

Personally I would hold off coming to a definite conclusion as to the cause until they have been settled in their permanent space for a couple of weeks at least.

When do you plan to enlarge their space further? I very much doubt that you would have any issues if you were to do it sooner rather than later.

Bumble did a teeny bit of chasing tonight early evening but it wasn't as aggressive and was only a few chases. They ended with him grooming her ears. So i don't think they are fully settled yet.

As I've not done this before, I'm guessing it's how long is a piece of string, but how long until I know the buns are totally bonded? Is there so behaviour i should look for?

Bumble seems pretty good with his litter tray habits. I haven't seen him do a naughty wee yet, when he was by himself he only did a few whoopsies and got better the longer he was here.

Yeah we've cut back on treats to see if it makes a difference, although she isn't very pleased about that.

I was going to ask when we should enlarge the space again. I was thinking in a few days. It will then be 1.8mx1.8m which is the largest it can be as that's most of our lounge. Lol.

Then we can attach a third pen as a 'run' only when we are here, because Bumble seriously liked to eat our rug. So i want to watch him, whilst i work out where I can get safe rugs. Then we will start letting them have access to the whole lounge whilst we are there in the evenings. And we can monitor what Bumble is like around furniture etc.
Then eventually the plan is to let them have access to the stairs again (these are in the lounge) Pip loved sitting upstairs and I feel bad that she hasn't had access for so long.

I just have a feeling Bumble is going to be very rambunctious and destructive. Which i don't mind but don't want him getting a bad tummy from eating rugs/furniture.

 

[Omi]

Tbh the chasing doesn't sound too serious.

I also haven't got that much experience with bonding, but I've usually only enlarged once before opening the area up to their permenent spaces as long as they seem OK with each other.

I actually wouldn't leave it longer than a few days before enlarging it, especially as they probably need to get to some sort of stable state sooner rather than later. Remember also in a larger space, if Bumble does decide to chase, then Pip will be able to run away in a larger area. Obviously choose a time when someone can be there to observe. I would be surprised if they react differently to now.

It's sensible to check Bumble's liking for the rung and anything else. Hopefully you might find that it's not too much of an issue.

 

[Mervinius]

Tbh the chasing doesn't sound too serious.

I also haven't got that much experience with bonding, but I've usually only enlarged once before opening the area up to their permenent spaces as long as they seem OK with each other.

I actually wouldn't leave it longer than a few days before enlarging it, especially as they probably need to get to some sort of stable state sooner rather than later. Remember also in a larger space, if Bumble does decide to chase, then Pip will be able to run away in a larger area. Obviously choose a time when someone can be there to observe. I would be surprised if they react differently to now.

It's sensible to check Bumble's liking for the rung and anything else. Hopefully you might find that it's not too much of an issue.

Yeah our old buns used to chase each other. I think I'm just over worrying.
Yeah it won't be long. I'm off this week so I can be on bun watch duty. They do seem quite relaxed and into a routine now.

 

[keletkezes]

I'd be expanding every couple of days at this stage: they're settled enough with each other, now they need the space to be settled And you can always go back if it goes wrong! Cecos: could be stress? Dunno, just thinking of different things...?

Best of luck and they're doing so well so far

 

[Mervinius]

I'd be expanding every couple of days at this stage: they're settled enough with each other, now they need the space to be settled And you can always go back if it goes wrong! Cecos: could be stress? Dunno, just thinking of different things...?

Best of luck and they're doing so well so far

Thanks. I'll talk to Dan and discuss when we next expand, but I think every couple of days is a good idea especially as I'm around more. I dont think Bumble has ever had as much space as he currently has. So don't want to overwhelm the little blighter. He's looking teeny in the space at the moment, but seems to be taking it in his stride and he's def getting braver with us. I got a cute contact nudge when got in the pen with them.
I think I'll just keep monitoring the cecos, it could be so many things but I don't think she's unwell, so will just keep a beady eye.
Heres their current set up. They are both sat in the black litter tray like two ninja voids. Lol

 

[bunny momma]

Pip and Bumble are stealing my heart. They remind me of my bridge ND bunnies. Sending you positive vibes they continue to do well together.

 

[Pets mum]

They are very well camouflaged in that tray paws crossed here for calm and harmony

 

[Mervinius]

They are very well camouflaged in that tray paws crossed here for calm and harmony

Yeah. I'm not sure buying a black tray was a good idea . When they both go inside the grass house they are invisible.

 

[keletkezes]

Ninja voids <3

 

[Mervinius]

My ninja voids have mostly been well behaved the last week. Lol.

They are now in a 1.8m x1.8m pen and both seem content so far.

Pip is still doing revenge wees, but there are less. She seems to be having less issues with cecos. They are a better consistency, but I still find the odd one stuck on the floor. Her bum seems clean though, so I think Bumble is being lovely and keeping her clean. I will keep monitoring until their vet visit in April for Bumble vaccine.

We think Pip is still in charge. Bumble does nearly all of the grooming, I've barely seen Pip do any. Which is how she was with our previous bun. But Bumble does chasing now and again and Pip zooms off at speed. It always ends with him grooming her ears though.
I'm wondering if they are still cementing their bond and heiracy, but they seem mostly happy with each other.

They've started to flop and relax more, but not seen them flopping together yet. The bunloaf together loads though.

I think I'm going to try introducing pieces of Pip's wooden castle next rather than giving them more space. I think it will give them more enrichment in their space and Bumble more used to inside living. I think Bumble will love jumping on it and exploring as he's very inquisitive. He's always stretching up on his toes to try to see what is on the other side of their pen. Lol

As you can see they are both still adorable. My partner has been making enrichment logs filled with forage. Bumble has no idea how to use them and he used to just stare at it when he was by himself. But he slowly learning from Pip now. Tonight he finally realised if he picked up the logs yummy things fell out.