Chief is breathing noisily again! U/d June, eye issues now too

[bunny momma]

Sending vibes for you and your bunny family. It can be stressful when you have a bunny with chronic health conditions and it is worse when you are also dealing with your own painful conditions.

 

[Omi]

Yes I agree it is Chief that is what is important here, not worrying that I could be upset about this. Although I do appreciate that you are both clearly worried that I am distressed. Yes of course I am upset. And also very angry that he has possibly suffered for years as the vets all missed it! I have been to both PDSA and the other 'rabbit savvy' vets countless times about his sore eyes.

I do agree with you that his eyes are most important at this moment in time as it would cause him great discomfort and also I feel his eyesight is not as good as it used to be. I also feel that his eyes look different somehow. It all makes sense now. So firstly we will get him an appointment with an eye specialist as soon as we can.

We also need to buy new scales for them as they are broken somehow and we are seeing the rabbit savvy vet (who actually owns rabbits) on Monday for his eyes and I checked that they can weigh them as well. We can get his teeth checked at the same time. We have Agria insurance who cover rabbits for dentals but I don't know if they will cover him if he has already had a dental. Our vets can find out about all of this for us I believe.

I'm not 100% sure if we are doing the best thing taking him to our local vets first so the vet can check his eyes and refer him to their twin office but that is what the receptionist recommended so costs don't stack up with the eye consultancy for his initial visit. As I said to Jane, we have never dealt with pet insurance before so any help with this is appreciated. But we can go directly if our vets does not agree that he has entropian of the eye. I apologise if I say all this wrong

If there are other health issues with them I would prefer it if I was told so I can look into the available treatment for them. If there are other things that have not been explained to me then feel free to tell me them.

Yes if course I discount him as being just grumpy. I feel terrible for saying that and hate that he is in pain and has been possibly all his life. I feel very guilty and also anxious that he gets the best care with the best vet we can afford. We insure them as we are on benefits and we can't afford to pay huge vet bills. All of our spare money goes on them and we may have to spend less on something to afford their best care. This may be something like not buying 3 types of hay and cutting out their soft meadow hay and just getting the courser meadow hay and the green hay which is better for their teeth. Or perhaps not get their fresh willow regularly but keep it as a treat. But all of these things we can afford at present. I am just saying that finances may need to be managed better if needed.

I truly apologise for posting in the wrong sections. This post did indeed start as a health issue but then has turned in to a really long thread with lots of what you say is 'rabbit chat' I know that I also write long posts and that a lot of that is not relevant to health. I am replying to those that post back but I know I can waffle and I will try to keep the posts shorter and make them relevant to the sections so for example I could move the subject of their weigh ins to the diet and digestion (or whatever the section is called as I can't remember).

Thank you Omi. Both yourself and Jane have only ever helped me understand rabbits better and helped save Chief's life through your valued opinions.

Like Jane, I still find it incredible that any vet, let alone a rabbit savvy vet, could have missed the issue with Chief's eyes. Do you see the same vet each time at the Broadstairs vet practice? Out of interest, what did he/she actually give as a diagnosis for Chief's eyes? It is good though that there is an eye specialist at the other branch of that vets in Canterbury. You might have had to travel quite a distance to see a specialist, so at least this has worked out well.

Posting threads in the correct forum sections is actually one of the forum rules and you might have noticed that the Mods will move any threads not in the appropriate section. Previously, I hadn't appreciated quite how important this is, but now when wondering how several members (apart from Jane) didn't query Chief's eye issues, I can understand the likelihood that they wrongly assumed that the posts were purely 'rabbit chat' related and so didn't bother to get involved. I know that I felt that way, which has possibly resulted in a delayed response for Chief

I think that certainly if you need to be more economical with what is spent on the bunnies, providing just the one type of hay would be perfectly fine, as long as they eat lots of it.

Sending lots of vibes for Chief. I hope you manage to get him some pain relief and I also hope that all goes well next Monday.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I will have to respond in a ‘bullet point’ tone only because I am in a lot of chronic pain. Please don’t think I am being hostile

Personal unqualified opinion- ALL of his heath problems are primarily due to him being brachycephalic (flat faced) and Lop eared. Brachycephalic Rabbits suffer in the same way as Brachy’ Dogs and Cats. The unnatural formation of their skull making them prone to respiratory tract disease, various eye diseases, dental problems.

Flat-faced Pets | Common Health Issues | RSPCA - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk

It's important that you're aware of the common health issues that Brachycephalic breeds face if you own or are considering buying one.

www.rspca.org.uk

Anatomical evaluation of brachycephalism in cats and rabbits - The Veterinary Nurse

Brachycephalic animals can be identified by their distinctive skull shape with a high cephalic index. Cat breeds affected by extreme brachycephaly include Exotic Shorthairs, Himalayans and Persians. The author notes that there is currently more research on Persians than other breeds, but...

www.theveterinarynurse.com

Policy Statements

Explore our policy statements on rabbit welfare. Stay informed about our advocacy efforts and commitment to improving the lives of rabbits. Learn more

rabbitwelfare.co.uk

Lops are very prone to ear infections/abscesses

https://www.unusualpetvets.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/lop-eared-rabbits-and-ear-disease.pdf

Rabbit Ear Disease at RVC Exotics

www.rvc.ac.uk

Ear Disease Lop Ear Rabbits

The NZ Bunny Vet – Auckland based small pet veterinarian with a special interest in rabbits, guinea pigs, chinchillas, rats, mice, reptiles and amphibians.

bunnyvet.co.nz

Priority - Start *pain relief* immediately, Chief’s eyes will be painful. Hence he’s become so grumpy.

Re his ears- I suspect there is chronic infection present, probably pus under the wax -Otitis Externa.
You might be able to feel a lump at each ear base, under his ears. If you can this is probably a walled off ear base abscess.

The transfer of bacteria from ears to eyes could occur via stray ear cleaner fluid getting into his eyes and/ or systemically. Pasteurellosis can affect multiple sites. The infection won’t cause entropian, it will exacerbate it though.

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES ON THIS LINK*

Pasteurella Snuffles in Rabbits: Cause, Symptoms & Treatment

Pasteurella symptoms, diagnosis and treatment in rabbits. This chronic disease can be severe and cause a disease in many different organs.

lbah.com

If he has a GA skull radiographs will be needed to assess his tooth roots, the possibility of infection in his middle ear (Otitis Media), also chest Xray. He could have micro abscessation of his lungs by now.

The *POSSIBILITY* of all of the above mentioned problems need to be discussed in full with a Rabbit Savvy Vet prior to deciding how to proceed re the entropian.

Re entropian- the degree it will have effected him at first could have been minimal. The defect varies in severity. But repeated infections and aging will lead to a worsening of the entropian as the eye lids become thickened

Corneal ulceration can be treated in various ways depending on cause, severity and response to treatments tried. If the ulceration has been present for a long time permanent sight loss is likely. Chiefs scanning is likely to be due to him have little eyesight left. Plus his eyes are almost closed up much of the time.

Medirabbit

My UNQUALIFIED gut feeling is that palliative care would be the most likely option for Chief. This would include longterm systemic and topical antibiotics- ie given orally/by injection, by eye drops, by ear drops. GOOD PAIN RELIEF DAILY- absolutely NO exception to giving pain relief.
Careful eye cleaning daily and the use of a barrier ointment around his eyes to try to protect the delicate skin.

All of the above would mean a lot of hands on care every day for the rest of his life.If this were to cause a lot of distress to Chief QOL assessment must be made. Some Rabbits cope just fine with a lot of hands on care, IM did. But some just don’t.

Re Agria, you need to read ALL of the small print in the Ts+Cs. Unfortunately they *might* try to state that entropian was a pre-existing condition, which to be fair it was. But you didn’t deliberately withhold the information when you took out the policy. You didn’t know he had it because apparently no Vet has ever noticed (still trying to get my head around that one)

EDITED TO ADD- If Chief is currently not on any pain relief at all I would call the Vet where he will be being seen on Tuesday to ask if you can start him on Metacam TODAY as he should not be without analgesic cover until Tuesday.

I CANNOT advise you to use them, but to try to help soothe his sore eyes as an addition to the essential Metacam I would also ask your Vet if you can use these.

Amazon.co.uk

The sooner Chief is having some sort of pain/discomfort relief the better, IMO

Just to let you know I am reading all this info atm but it takes me a while for my brain to take it in

Really sorry to hear you are in a lot of pain today and I appreciate that you have taken time out to give me all this information.

Just a thought...I was thinking it would be best to start a new thread on Chief's eyes and other issues and one for their weigh ins and diet. This means hopefully more people will read it rather than this long thread?

I do also think this information you have sent me is very educational for all rabbit owners and I wondered if this post of yours I am replying to and the one about entropian could be in this new thread? For example the flat nosed animals and the health issues they face as it includes lionheads and nethies. Do you think it needs to be copied over or leave it on this thread?

I do think the entropian post from you needs to be in the new thread though so everybun can know what is wrong with Chiefy. However I don't want to start copying stuff without your agreement so will leave it up to you and other moderators.
I'm not sure how to copy a post to another thread yet though but I can learn if you think it is a good idea.

Thanks IM I will carry on with my reading your post

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Sending vibes for you and your bunny family. It can be stressful when you have a bunny with chronic health conditions and it is worse when you are also dealing with your own painful conditions.

Thank you Bunny momma I really appreciate your care that you have showed recently. Especially now as it is a worrying time for us that we can get Chief the right help

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Like Jane, I still find it incredible that any vet, let alone a rabbit savvy vet, could have missed the issue with Chief's eyes. Do you see the same vet each time at the Broadstairs vet practice? Out of interest, what did he/she actually give as a diagnosis for Chief's eyes? It is good though that there is an eye specialist at the other branch of that vets in Canterbury. You might have had to travel quite a distance to see a specialist, so at least this has worked out well.

Posting threads in the correct forum sections is actually one of the forum rules and you might have noticed that the Mods will move any threads not in the appropriate section. Previously, I hadn't appreciated quite how important this is, but now when wondering how several members (apart from Jane) didn't query Chief's eye issues, I can understand the likelihood that they wrongly assumed that the posts were purely 'rabbit chat' related and so didn't bother to get involved. I know that I felt that way, which has possibly resulted in a delayed response for Chief

I think that certainly if you need to be more economical with what is spent on the bunnies, providing just the one type of hay would be perfectly fine, as long as they eat lots of it.

Sending lots of vibes for Chief. I hope you manage to get him some pain relief and I also hope that all goes well next Monday.

I am still reading Jane's post and I will reply to that when I have read all the info but as your post is short I thought I should reply so you don't think I am being rude. Thank you for all your help with their diet and hay/willow etc

So we have been to several vets about Chief's eyes. A few different vets at PDSA have checked his eyes and given him eye infection eye drops but either missed entropian of the eyes with Chief or seen it and not said anything to us. However I do excuse PDSA a little as they are a charity and we go there when we are short of money and it is usually an emergency like gut stasis so they may have thought we can't afford it or they are just treating the problem that is most urgent. Also they did recommend that we find a rabbit savvy vet in the area for his ears and breathing as they did not have the right equipment.

So we registered with Briar House (Broadstairs) and we have seen 3 different vets there, one vet (who knew we were short of money at the time) who was really good with Chief with his fast breathing and lung infection. She has left the vets now.
We saw one of the main vets who runs the practice (Enrico) when Chief had his lump removed. He was very helpful and attentive to Chief through this but I don't remember if I asked him to check his ears/eyes but I usually do say as Chief has a history of problems with these but he did not say anything about his eyes needing treatment. We have also seen two other vets for jabs/general health check.

And then for Lillabelle's spay we saw the most rabbit savvy vet there (Harrison) apparently and we specifically asked him to do all round health check including eyes/ears. We did not see Harrison at all but his feedback from the vet nurse was that he said his eyes were fine and suggested we get an ear cleaner for him to get rid of the wax so we bought it there and then. At Lillabelle's spay check a few days later we saw Megan the vet nurse and talked to her for ages about their weight etc. She let them both out for a run around and looked at them but she said nothing about Chief having entropian of the eyes. We are booked in to see Harrison personally on Monday again and he owns rabbits himself. We were going to talk it through with him and push that he refers Chief to see an opthalmologist and check our insurance to see if we can claim for this.

However now we are seriously considering going to another vet in Margate about this. We have found what looks to be a good savvy vet at a smaller independent practice in Margate high street so either a long walk (possibly using my granddaughter's pram that she has grown out of to fit both carriers in) or a taxi ride which is minimal cost. This vets has 5 stars on reviews. I wondered if we could check this vets out? I vaguely remember RU having a system for reviewing rabbit savvy vets?

My problem is that I have to convince my other half that a trip to Canterbury to see the opthalmologist is really necessary. We spend all our spare cash on our buns and he is so great about it and adores our buns but it will cost us around £80 taxi fare in travel costs as we both agree that the stress of a taxi and train or an hour bus ride would be stressful for them both especially as they are in separate carriers. Then there is the initial cost for the consultancy plus any medication we would need to pay for. We could be looking at £200 possibly. We are totally skint from buying a washing machine so no savings. I am not complaining about possible costs it is just a fact.
We get our benefit money on Monday which is why we booked the vets for then. Until then we have zero money but we can afford to go to Canterbury if needed.

Also I need to convince my OH that Chief has entropian of the eye. We have both looked at Chief's eyes and his eyelashes do not touch his eyes. However he does have a v shape to his upper eyelids and it seems to curl as his eyes close. Is that what you and Jane are saying is wrong? Could you maybe use arrows to show where his problem is please? I have read the information about entropian but my face nerve pain is really bad and it makes it difficult to take info in so I will need to read it several times. And I am also trying to read all the info from Jane's last post and reply to yourself as I don't want you to think I am ignoring you. Don't get me wrong-this info is extremely valuable and educates me about french lops and why Chief gets these problems. And I fully intend to read all of this several times before the vet appointment (whichever one we go to) so I know a little of what I am talking about.

Atm my OH just sees me terribly upset and feeling so guilty for overfeeding them and exasperating Chief's problems and we are very stressed and arguing about what we do next. So I thought seeing another vet who agrees that Chief needs to see an eye specialist and can show my OH Chief's eye problems face to face would help me convince my OH. So any help by yourself or Jane to help him understand Chief's eye issues would be fantastic. He has read about entropian of the eyes and we will read it again. However can you see why I need a vet to say yes he has entropian of the eyes before we get him referred to Canterbury? I am going to read everything and also reply to Jane about her last post and this is time consuming for me as I have problems with my brain (due to a mini stroke) so please be patient that we are both fully invested in helping both our buns and I will always answer you both once I read the info. Sorry about the long post. It is easier and quicker to just type my thoughts rather than spend ages trying to say the right words.

I have read up on some forum rules but not really had the chance to look properly at all of it as spending ages writing replies to posts. However I fully intend to do this asap. I have taken on board what you have said about posting under the right section which is why I asked Jane in the last post if it would be better to start a new thread about Chief's eyes and other health problems and transfer these last posts on this thread as it would be fantastic reading for everybun and they are more likely to read it in a new thread and post valuable info (and so helps Chief more as well) but I don't know the rules on this or how to do it yet.

As far as their hay goes, we would still continue to get the meadow hay which we now only put at the end of the litter trays for eating and not for peeing on and then eating! Yes I did take in what Jane said about that Their green hay is a total success and they will eat a good fresh pile of it around 4 times a day and be too full up to eat their greens which is a first! They go back to their greens later. We will always get that hay no matter what.

My OH has looked at our scales again and they have the same readings as our kitchen scales so they must be okay which is great news. We did weigh Chief today and he was 5.530 kg so I was disappointed that he would have only lost 170 g since the last vet appointment. However my OH said that we weighed him after his green herbs/veggies today and usually it is in the morning. So we are going to weigh them tomorrow but I don't think they have lost 50 g a week Hopefully we can gradually reduce their pellets and maybe other meals slightly to help them lose more. Chief only has a quarter of an egg cup full of pellets and I am slowly reducing that but he has these as a reward for doing his eye drops and cleaning his eyes. I have not used the ear cleaner yet since Jane said it might irritate his eyes. Should I continue to do this please? He is getting so much better about me going near his eyes now. I have been taking it really slowly and giving him lots of fuss beforehand and he loves that.
One more thing-could Jane or yourself please let me know if we should give him Loxicom until the vets next week? We have some left over from Lil's spay. If so how much and how often?

Thank you so much Omi. I am learning so much and am so so grateful to you, Jane and everybun else on RU for helping me understand that they needed to lose a lot of weight and that Chief especially needs to see an experienced rabbit savvy vet asap. If you think this other vet looks good I am going to ring them tomorrow for an appointment. We will definitely do all we can to make sure their weight is healthy by continuing the diet and we will make sure they have the best QOL

 

[Pets mum]

I'm so sorry to hear about Mr Chiefs ongoing eye issues, just read through your last posts. I can't offer any additional advice, but just wanted to add my support and lots of vibes. I think you and your husband give your bunnies a wonderful life, and advocate for their health so well. Look after yourself too xx

 

[InspectorMorse]

Re entropian. As I mentioned before, it can vary in severity. At first it might not effect the Rabbit at all. When the Rabbit has had repeated eye infections the eyelids can become thickened and thus the curving in has a more profound effect and the eye lashes can scratch against the eyeballs when the Rabbit blinks. This then causes damage to the corneas of the eyes which can result in the formation of corneal ulcers.

At first Chief’s entropian could have been minimal. But once he started to have repeated eye infections and ‘runny eyes’ his eyelids became inflamed and eventually thickened.
From the photos it looks as though he has some infection again now. This would mean his eyelids look even more inflamed and thus the inward turn of them is more noticable. If his eyes looked exactly the same as they appear in your recent images when he was examined by a Vet I cannot understand why no treatment was given and nothing mentioned about the problem at all.

Runny eyes - Elongated tooth roots and the fact that brachycephalic Rabbits frequently have deformed nasolacrimal ducts (tear ducts). The combination of the two leading to chronic runny eyes as the tears cannot drain because the ducts are blocked. Blocked nasolacrimal ducts can also become infected.

So in my UNQUALIFIED opinion for Chief there are three factors that are causing his sore eyes.Blocked nasolacrimal ducts due to elongated tooth roots and a probable brachy’ related deformity of the nasolacrimal ducts, entropian and at the moment an active bacterial infection. As he has had so many respiratory tract infections it’s very likely that Pasteurella is involved and this can also cause infections elsewhere.

Looking at Chief’s situation realistically and only from my UNQUALIFIED opinion it is unlikely that eye surgery would be an option. Even if you could afford it. His compromised lung function and repeated bacterial infections make his GA risk greater. As does the fact that he’s an older Rabbit and over-weight. So, I think the best way forward would be to find a competent Vet willing to work with you to provide Chief with a palliative care plan that will give him the best possible QOL whilst living with chronic health problems. I think you would be likely to see an improvement in his mood once he has pain relief and some appropriate eye drops. He might have a few molar spurs, but if he’s now eating lots and lots of hay these could resolve without the need of another Dental. I would not want to put him under GA unless it was absolutely essential. For example if the spurs were damaging soft tissue on his cheeks/tongue. If the crowns of his teeth are too long this would cause more pressure on his tooth roots when he chews. This would lead to more weepy eyes and increase the rate of tooth root elongation. The new significant increase in his hay consumption should enable him to where down the crowns of his molars, He wouldn’t need this to be done as part of a Dental under GA.

With regards to the Metacam, it is a POM and only the Vet can advise you about what dose to give. No-one on here is qualified to tell you to administer a POM to Chief. Which is why yesterday I suggested you call the Practice he is going to on Tuesday and ask them if you can start Chief on Metacam so he isn’t in so much discomfort until next Tuesday.

Going forward I would now focus on what is the most likely scenario, a palliative care plan that will give Chief the best QOL for as long as possible and that you can afford on a longterm basis. For example it can be cheaper to get a prescription for Metacam from the Vet. Then buy the medication online. Even though there will be a charge for the prescription it still works out cheaper. Especially if the Vet allows a repeat of the drug ie you will be able to buy a second bottle using the same prescription. So for the second bottle of Metacam you only pay for that, not another prescription charge too. The same thing can apply to many other drugs. It is always a lot cheaper to buy them online.

There will be no point in taking Chief to a specialist if realistically for him surgery is not an option. Not only because of the financial element, but also due to the fact that the risks of a GA will be greater because of his poor lung function etc. As long as you have a Vet who will provide good palliative care and you can afford to fund it in the long term then Chief should be able to have an acceptable QOL.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Ok I have read all this and taken it in. I am still reading the other info you have sent me. I think the best thing I could do for BOTH of our buns is to find a more competent rabbit savvy vets which I will try to do today. I will ring Briar House and see if they will agree that we can give them Metacam for the weekend. Thanks Jane again. Hope you feel better today

 

[InspectorMorse]

Ok I have read all this and taken it in. I am still reading the other info you have sent me. I think the best thing I could do for BOTH of our buns is to find a more competent rabbit savvy vets which I will try to do today. I will ring Briar House and see if they will agree that we can give them Metacam for the weekend. Thanks Jane again. Hope you feel better today

You won’t go wrong with Mark Rowland here.

Sevenoaks - Our Team - Pennard Vets

Pennard Vets

pennardvets.com

Not sure if that is anywhere near you though

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Unfortunately it is 2 hours away from us. Kent is a massive county and we live down by the coast.

I rang a different vets and they are seeing him on Monday at 1.30pm. John is an independent vet. They have 2 vets there and John is trained in exotic pets and is great with rabbits apparently. The vet is called Vintage vets in High St, Margate if you want to take a look. They have 5 stars which is the best in the area of a short car journey. We can actually walk to this one so that could be good.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I am also sending the photos to our current vet to see if he will agree that we can give Chief the Loxicom left from Lil's spay. He will probably say no though which is a problem as we can't afford the vets until Monday ☹

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

So we are getting somewhere slowly...

I sent all the photos which I sent to you IM and our current vet has agreed he can be put on 1 ml Metacam daily until he sees him on Monday. Plus he suggested we get an eye lube for hoomans from the chemist to put around his eye to help with the soreness. Obviously I didn't say we were taking him to another vets

We have just enough Metacam thankfully so now I can just carry on with reading

Also now going to try and de-stress...

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I'm so sorry to hear about Mr Chiefs ongoing eye issues, just read through your last posts. I can't offer any additional advice, but just wanted to add my support and lots of vibes. I think you and your husband give your bunnies a wonderful life, and advocate for their health so well. Look after yourself too xx

Thank you Pets mum. Hopefully now they are on a diet and I am being educated on what is wrong with Chief (mainly) we will get them better care from a vet in future xx

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Sorry just another question

We weighed them today and if these scales are right they have not lost as much as we would hope. Chief has lost 155g in 6 weeks and Lils has lost 240g

They are both moulting. Lils just a usual moult of bits of fur that we can brush out. Chief is severely moultingand his fur is coming off in substantial amounts. His fur moults down to a few mm on his back and face. My OH has been reading up on this and says they apparently eat more than usual in order to moult.

We have kept the meals the same but Chief is constantly eating this green hay and Lils more hay than before.

Could this be the reason they have not lost as much as we would hope? I'm not making excuses but I am very disappointed as we have been so strict on them. They have no treats now except something out of their daily portions. And Chief now has less than a quarter of an egg cup full at most. Some days he does not ask for any. Yesterday neither of them wanted pellets as they ate so much green hay.

Should we reduce their meals down a bit more to allow for them eating more hay? In fact I would say Chief is eating this green hay constantly and if we want them to eat hay as 80% of their daily food should we reduce their other feeds accordingly?

Thank you

 

[Omi]

Sorry just another question

We weighed them today and if these scales are right they have not lost as much as we would hope. Chief has lost 155g in 6 weeks and Lils has lost 240g

They are both moulting. Lils just a usual moult of bits of fur that we can brush out. Chief is severely moultingand his fur is coming off in substantial amounts. His fur moults down to a few mm on his back and face. My OH has been reading up on this and says they apparently eat more than usual in order to moult.

We have kept the meals the same but Chief is constantly eating this green hay and Lils more hay than before.

Could this be the reason they have not lost as much as we would hope? I'm not making excuses but I am very disappointed as we have been so strict on them. They have no treats now except something out of their daily portions. And Chief now has less than a quarter of an egg cup full at most. Some days he does not ask for any. Yesterday neither of them wanted pellets as they ate so much green hay.

Should we reduce their meals down a bit more to allow for them eating more hay? In fact I would say Chief is eating this green hay constantly and if we want them to eat hay as 80% of their daily food should we reduce their other feeds accordingly?

Thank you

I've just seen this and wanted to respond quickly. I will respond to your earlier post to me later today though

Can you list the foods that they each have per day, which is not hay? This info should be helpful to establish how you should proceed. Also, by 'green hay' do you mean the Timothy?

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Sorry I just realised I put it in the wrong section

Shall I start a new thread about their diet in the diet section first?

I can start a new thread on Chief's eyes and other health issues as well but I guess there should be reference to this thread for those reading about it?

Thanks Omi

 

[InspectorMorse]

What type of hay is the ‘green hay’ ?

 

[Omi]

reply to that when I have read all the info but as your post is short I thought I should reply so you don't think I am being rude. Thank you for all your help with their diet and hay/willow etc

So we have been to several vets about Chief's eyes. A few different vets at PDSA have checked his I am still reading Jane's post and I willeyes and given him eye infection eye drops but either missed entropian of the eyes with Chief or seen it and not said anything to us. However I do excuse PDSA a little as they are a charity and we go there when we are short of money and it is usually an emergency like gut stasis so they may have thought we can't afford it or they are just treating the problem that is most urgent. Also they did recommend that we find a rabbit savvy vet in the area for his ears and breathing as they did not have the right equipment.

So we registered with Briar House (Broadstairs) and we have seen 3 different vets there, one vet (who knew we were short of money at the time) who was really good with Chief with his fast breathing and lung infection. She has left the vets now.
We saw one of the main vets who runs the practice (Enrico) when Chief had his lump removed. He was very helpful and attentive to Chief through this but I don't remember if I asked him to check his ears/eyes but I usually do say as Chief has a history of problems with these but he did not say anything about his eyes needing treatment. We have also seen two other vets for jabs/general health check.

And then for Lillabelle's spay we saw the most rabbit savvy vet there (Harrison) apparently and we specifically asked him to do all round health check including eyes/ears. We did not see Harrison at all but his feedback from the vet nurse was that he said his eyes were fine and suggested we get an ear cleaner for him to get rid of the wax so we bought it there and then. At Lillabelle's spay check a few days later we saw Megan the vet nurse and talked to her for ages about their weight etc. She let them both out for a run around and looked at them but she said nothing about Chief having entropian of the eyes. We are booked in to see Harrison personally on Monday again and he owns rabbits himself. We were going to talk it through with him and push that he refers Chief to see an opthalmologist and check our insurance to see if we can claim for this.

However now we are seriously considering going to another vet in Margate about this. We have found what looks to be a good savvy vet at a smaller independent practice in Margate high street so either a long walk (possibly using my granddaughter's pram that she has grown out of to fit both carriers in) or a taxi ride which is minimal cost. This vets has 5 stars on reviews. I wondered if we could check this vets out? I vaguely remember RU having a system for reviewing rabbit savvy vets?

My problem is that I have to convince my other half that a trip to Canterbury to see the opthalmologist is really necessary. We spend all our spare cash on our buns and he is so great about it and adores our buns but it will cost us around £80 taxi fare in travel costs as we both agree that the stress of a taxi and train or an hour bus ride would be stressful for them both especially as they are in separate carriers. Then there is the initial cost for the consultancy plus any medication we would need to pay for. We could be looking at £200 possibly. We are totally skint from buying a washing machine so no savings. I am not complaining about possible costs it is just a fact.
We get our benefit money on Monday which is why we booked the vets for then. Until then we have zero money but we can afford to go to Canterbury if needed.

Also I need to convince my OH that Chief has entropian of the eye. We have both looked at Chief's eyes and his eyelashes do not touch his eyes. However he does have a v shape to his upper eyelids and it seems to curl as his eyes close. Is that what you and Jane are saying is wrong? Could you maybe use arrows to show where his problem is please? I have read the information about entropian but my face nerve pain is really bad and it makes it difficult to take info in so I will need to read it several times. And I am also trying to read all the info from Jane's last post and reply to yourself as I don't want you to think I am ignoring you. Don't get me wrong-this info is extremely valuable and educates me about french lops and why Chief gets these problems. And I fully intend to read all of this several times before the vet appointment (whichever one we go to) so I know a little of what I am talking about.

Atm my OH just sees me terribly upset and feeling so guilty for overfeeding them and exasperating Chief's problems and we are very stressed and arguing about what we do next. So I thought seeing another vet who agrees that Chief needs to see an eye specialist and can show my OH Chief's eye problems face to face would help me convince my OH. So any help by yourself or Jane to help him understand Chief's eye issues would be fantastic. He has read about entropian of the eyes and we will read it again. However can you see why I need a vet to say yes he has entropian of the eyes before we get him referred to Canterbury? I am going to read everything and also reply to Jane about her last post and this is time consuming for me as I have problems with my brain (due to a mini stroke) so please be patient that we are both fully invested in helping both our buns and I will always answer you both once I read the info. Sorry about the long post. It is easier and quicker to just type my thoughts rather than spend ages trying to say the right words.

I have read up on some forum rules but not really had the chance to look properly at all of it as spending ages writing replies to posts. However I fully intend to do this asap. I have taken on board what you have said about posting under the right section which is why I asked Jane in the last post if it would be better to start a new thread about Chief's eyes and other health problems and transfer these last posts on this thread as it would be fantastic reading for everybun and they are more likely to read it in a new thread and post valuable info (and so helps Chief more as well) but I don't know the rules on this or how to do it yet.

As far as their hay goes, we would still continue to get the meadow hay which we now only put at the end of the litter trays for eating and not for peeing on and then eating! Yes I did take in what Jane said about that Their green hay is a total success and they will eat a good fresh pile of it around 4 times a day and be too full up to eat their greens which is a first! They go back to their greens later. We will always get that hay no matter what.

I'll try to respond to all your points, but please come back if I miss anything.

Re Chief's eyes, I have no experience of Entropian, so it's best I leave that to Jane to give advice on. However, I would say it's obvious from your photos, that both his eyes look 'odd' and very sore. So I really don't understand how vets have missed this.

Re vets, my vet is not an exotic vet. She is an independent vet, who listens, is very thorough and attentive and who has done an extra course on rabbits. She would definitely have mentioned any issue which she saw, even if it was in an area of the body, which she had not been asked to look at. I would expect this of a vet. I would also always want to be present when my bunnies are examined and would want one-to-one discussion of findings, with anything explained in detail that I didn't understand. If I were you, I would insist on this.

Re their weights, it is essential to weigh them at the same time of the day for comparison purposes ie when they have had roughly the same amount of food inside them. I don't know if you've ever weighed plain water, but with a rabbit's weight, which is not massive anyway, just the difference between before and after a large wee can make a lot of difference. And of course the more often you weigh them, the more evident the true overall weight loss will be. I'll wait until you post exactly what they each eat every day, before thinking about how to achieve a greater weight loss. Although with pellets I would give him just one as a reward for having his eyes done Believe me, he won't remember he's had a few more in the past

Re starting new threads, this is only what I would do, as I think it would be easier for you, plus it would allow anyone else to view all the information. I would start a new thread in Health, called something like 'Chief's health issues'. You could then update that thread with any health problem that Chief has from now on, ie not only his eyes. At the start of that thread I would copy a link from this thread, explaining that it contains previous information. That means that you don't have to go through this thread and retrieve posts connected with health, but also means that people can read it if they wish. As the weight issue is relevant to both bunnies, I think you could cover them both in the same thread, which I would post in the Diet and Digestion section. I would use that in the same way, ie post new information from now on in the new thread. I wouldn't actually bother to copy a link to previous information, which I think is mostly under Lillabelle's thread anyway.

Lastly, I'm pleased you've managed to get agreement to give Chief some pain relief. It also seems hopeful re the new vet.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I'll try to respond to all your points, but please come back if I miss anything.

Re Chief's eyes, I have no experience of Entropian, so it's best I leave that to Jane to give advice on. However, I would say it's obvious from your photos, that both his eyes look 'odd' and very sore. So I really don't understand how vets have missed this.

Re vets, my vet is not an exotic vet. She is an independent vet, who listens, is very thorough and attentive and who has done an extra course on rabbits. She would definitely have mentioned any issue which she saw, even if it was in an area of the body, which she had not been asked to look at. I would expect this of a vet. I would also always want to be present when my bunnies are examined and would want one-to-one discussion of findings, with anything explained in detail that I didn't understand. If I were you, I would insist on this.

Re their weights, it is essential to weigh them at the same time of the day for comparison purposes ie when they have had roughly the same amount of food inside them. I don't know if you've ever weighed plain water, but with a rabbit's weight, which is not massive anyway, just the difference between before and after a large wee can make a lot of difference. And of course the more often you weigh them, the more evident the true overall weight loss will be. I'll wait until you post exactly what they each eat every day, before thinking about how to achieve a greater weight loss. Although with pellets I would give him just one as a reward for having his eyes done Believe me, he won't remember he's had a few more in the past

Re starting new threads, this is only what I would do, as I think it would be easier for you, plus it would allow anyone else to view all the information. I would start a new thread in Health, called something like 'Chief's health issues'. You could then update that thread with any health problem that Chief has from now on, ie not only his eyes. At the start of that thread I would copy a link from this thread, explaining that it contains previous information. That means that you don't have to go through this thread and retrieve posts connected with health, but also means that people can read it if they wish. As the weight issue is relevant to both bunnies, I think you could cover them both in the same thread, which I would post in the Diet and Digestion section. I would use that in the same way, ie post new information from now on in the new thread. I wouldn't actually bother to copy a link to previous information, which I think is mostly under Lillabelle's thread anyway.

Lastly, I'm pleased you've managed to get agreement to give Chief some pain relief. It also seems hopeful re the new vet.

Thank you Omi. Yes I will start two new threads now and try to remember not to write about other irrelevant issues for that section

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I was about to do a new thread on Chief's eyes and other health issues but I realised I don't know how to link the new thread to this one and I was thinking I should also link to specific posts ie entropian of the eyes and his photos for example.

I am also having a bad night pain wise so I will leave the new thread tomorrow once I know how to link it all etc