A leap of faith?.......U/D 28th jan

[Craig 1965]

Moving on from Leo's wife bun thread.....we have some news. News I'm still trying to process and I'm still quite numb.
An hour ago, our local Blue cross rang in connection with our enquiry about a rabbit that they had just taken into their care. A 2 year old medium lop - and you won't quite believe the photos of her when I eventually post them.
We've been offered the chance to adopt this little bunny. This of course is dependant on our set up and how things go. It is not as straightforward as it might seem.
This little bunny is 2 years old. She lived with 2 males who sadly passed and they passed about 3 months apart. It was natural causes - so not a virus/mixi related issue. Incredibly sad. The bunny lived with a family and she was well looked after with the 2 other rabbits. She loved hoomans and would happily sit for 'hours' at a time on the settee with the children just being stroked and chilling out.
Sadly the family are also moving and are not now able to spend the time with her and so she has come into care. As a result, she has become completely withdrawn, loss of confidence and clearly grieving her little heart out.
She enjoyed free roam of the families garden and clearly felt secure with her companions. And clearly shared indoor time.
Since coming into care, she was with a foster carer and she had a big double hutch and run. She managed to push the door open one night, go into the run, push the run out of the way and was free roaming in the garden. The next day she did the same and found a hole in the fence and made her way into a neighbours garden! Clearly she is reacting with all the negative emotions she must be feeling - confused, lost, alone.
She is now in a puppy run at the centre - not ideal but it is the safest environment for her under the present situation.
She's had a bit of a boxing match with the foster carer and one of the rescue centre staff but no outward agression. She becomes curious after a while.
She is dealing with so many emotions now - moving from a stable home, to a foster home to now a puppy pen, on her own, and not knowing what tomorrow brings for her.
Well, as it currently stands, she may be coming here with us but I now feel very much out of my depth. There is a really lovely bunny beneath the emotional pain she is in. It's just getting past that barrier whilst (a) trying to keep her safe (b) trying to facilitate a bond and (c) working out how and where to keep her during the process. I don't feel quite prepared. I can bring the outside hutch in to the kitchen/diner area and put additional bolts on the door to prevent her from pushing it open.
It's the boxing bit that gives me concern. But it's a fight or flight reaction and I'm sure once she feels comfortable in the garden and knows that she can spend time in that space under supervision, and hopefully realises there's another rabbit there, then she may settle down and relax and feel settled? She sounds like she is dominant but then Lillian was.
It's all alot of unknowns for me now. I'm nervous, anxious and feel very unprepared. Mentally I'm still grieving myself so I know how this bunny feels.
I'm having a more detailled pre-adoption chat with the blue cross next week with a view to taking her in here at the back end of next week - which has more than some irony in it because it will be exactly 1 year on February 4th that we got Leo. And I'm not sure how he will react.
If anyone has any views, then please let me have them. This is not a small step for me - it's one that I'm more than anxious about.
Craig x

 

[tulsi]

My initial quick response was that such an intuitive person as you would be great for this rabbit. Honestly your set up and and your sensitivity sounds to be just what she needs.

 

[Graciee]

Moving on from Leo's wife bun thread.....we have some news. News I'm still trying to process and I'm still quite numb.
An hour ago, our local Blue cross rang in connection with our enquiry about a rabbit that they had just taken into their care. A 2 year old medium lop - and you won't quite believe the photos of her when I eventually post them.
We've been offered the chance to adopt this little bunny. This of course is dependant on our set up and how things go. It is not as straightforward as it might seem.
This little bunny is 2 years old. She lived with 2 males who sadly passed and they passed about 3 months apart. It was natural causes - so not a virus/mixi related issue. Incredibly sad. The bunny lived with a family and she was well looked after with the 2 other rabbits. She loved hoomans and would happily sit for 'hours' at a time on the settee with the children just being stroked and chilling out.
Sadly the family are also moving and are not now able to spend the time with her and so she has come into care. As a result, she has become completely withdrawn, loss of confidence and clearly grieving her little heart out.
She enjoyed free roam of the families garden and clearly felt secure with her companions. And clearly shared indoor time.
Since coming into care, she was with a foster carer and she had a big double hutch and run. She managed to push the door open one night, go into the run, push the run out of the way and was free roaming in the garden. The next day she did the same and found a hole in the fence and made her way into a neighbours garden! Clearly she is reacting with all the negative emotions she must be feeling - confused, lost, alone.
She is now in a puppy run at the centre - not ideal but it is the safest environment for her under the present situation.
She's had a bit of a boxing match with the foster carer and one of the rescue centre staff but no outward agression. She becomes curious after a while.
She is dealing with so many emotions now - moving from a stable home, to a foster home to now a puppy pen, on her own, and not knowing what tomorrow brings for her.
Well, as it currently stands, she may be coming here with us but I now feel very much out of my depth. There is a really lovely bunny beneath the emotional pain she is in. It's just getting past that barrier whilst (a) trying to keep her safe (b) trying to facilitate a bond and (c) working out how and where to keep her during the process. I don't feel quite prepared. I can bring the outside hutch in to the kitchen/diner area and put additional bolts on the door to prevent her from pushing it open.
It's the boxing bit that gives me concern. But it's a fight or flight reaction and I'm sure once she feels comfortable in the garden and knows that she can spend time in that space under supervision, and hopefully realises there's another rabbit there, then she may settle down and relax and feel settled? She sounds like she is dominant but then Lillian was.
It's all alot of unknowns for me now. I'm nervous, anxious and feel very unprepared. Mentally I'm still grieving myself so I know how this bunny feels.
I'm having a more detailled pre-adoption chat with the blue cross next week with a view to taking her in here at the back end of next week - which has more than some irony in it because it will be exactly 1 year on February 4th that we got Leo. And I'm not sure how he will react.
If anyone has any views, then please let me have them. This is not a small step for me - it's one that I'm more than anxious about.
Craig x

Atticus used to box me and attack me. He had a traumatic experience when he was neutered. I didn't know what to do with him. It was actually really scary being on the receiving end of that. Rabbits can be really aggressive

No advice, except I'd consider whether you could cope with it yourself.. I found it very difficult tbh. If you can't I don't think there's any shame in that, she needs a home that will work with her by the sounds of it.

Really tough situation x

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[Zoobec]

As you say, bunny has gone through a lot of changes, and it was very much the same story for Fern when I met her at the rescue. She had been rescued from a group of rabbits running wild in a garden, being bred for meat since then she had been moved from the original rescue who didn’t normally have rabbits, to BARC, where she was in foster care, spayed, then after recovering from the spay, moved to the main rescue a day or so before I went to see her. So I excused her behaviour when we opened the hutch because I kid you not, she growled, stamped her front foot at me and threatened to nip me :shock: but I thought, challenge accepted. And she has never done that again since. She is dominant, and was of Frosty, but loves a headrub and she’s a lovely bunny who settled in at our house straight away

So try not to be too nervous, I know it’s a big thing but you are a great bunny carer and I feel like it is meant to be

 

[Craig 1965]

As you say, bunny has gone through a lot of changes, and it was very much the same story for Fern when I met her at the rescue. She had been rescued from a group of rabbits running wild in a garden, being bred for meat since then she had been moved from the original rescue who didn’t normally have rabbits, to BARC, where she was in foster care, spayed, then after recovering from the spay, moved to the main rescue a day or so before I went to see her. So I excused her behaviour when we opened the hutch because I kid you not, she growled, stamped her front foot at me and threatened to nip me :shock: but I thought, challenge accepted. And she has never done that again since. She is dominant, and was of Frosty, but loves a headrub and she’s a lovely bunny who settled in at our house straight away

So try not to be too nervous, I know it’s a big thing but you are a great bunny carer and I feel like it is meant to be

Thank you Zoobec - you've made me cry now....but it's because of your supportive words.
Thank you also Tulsi & Graciee. I really appreciate your views and support.
Craig xx

 

[joey&boo]

The defensive boxing behaviour might be really difficult to handle during bonding ...not with Leo but if you had to intervene. That would be my worry. But I'm very hands on when I bond so I guess it depend on your approach. Good luck with your decision. I think it needs to feel right in your head & heart, hopefully the chat with Blue Cross will help with that

 

[Zoobec]

Thank you Zoobec - you've made me cry now....but it's because of your supportive words.
Thank you also Tulsi & Graciee. I really appreciate your views and support.
Craig xx

I think bunny might settle down with time and space, if you don’t give her cause to have to be defensive then she won’t need to be. You will be bringer of food and she will recognise you for that, and learn to feel safe.

The defensive boxing behaviour might be really difficult to handle during bonding ...not with Leo but if you had to intervene. That would be my worry. But I'm very hands on when I bond so I guess it depend on your approach. Good luck with your decision. I think it needs to feel right in your head & heart, hopefully the chat with Blue Cross will help with that

This is true. When I brought Fern home I had her in a spare hutch for a night so she could get used to me, then I put both in the bonding pen the next day. Because Fern was very skittish with me (at the time) I didn’t intervene at all and did not try to interact with either bunny, apart from to put food in and once I did have to stop a scuffle, using a dustpan slid between them. I let her see Frosty come to me and she learnt to trust me by seeing that it was ok. I let her bond with Frosty before she bonded with me, if that makes sense.

 

[Omi]

I think you should consider how she and Leo would get along together. She sounds like a strong, forceful character, but she is probably just very scared. I don't know how long she was at the foster carer's, but it's very possible that after a short while she would have calmed down once she knew she wasn't in any danger. The fact that she lived happily with two separate bucks would suggest that she would be able to bond with Leo. However, you know his personality and if after having her for a while you consider that they would not make a happy couple, you presumably would have the option of returning her to the rescue, as difficult as that would be.

The other issue, which would concern me is how she would react to being out in your garden. I don't know if this is something that she was used to doing in her previous home, but it is something that Leo gets a lot of enjoyment from. I would want to know that she would not be forever trying to escape as you would not be able to watch her the whole time. It's possible that this is something that was connected to her current state of anxiety, but it's also something to consider.

I don't mean my post to come across as negative. I always like to try to consider all aspects and you did sound as though you wanted this too. It sounds as though this poor little bunny needs a special new home. Leo also needs a new bunny wife. Your difficult task is to assess whether this could work. I really hope that it will.

 

[Pets mum]

I've never bonded, and I've never had to deal with a boxing bunny, but this little girl sounds as though she has had an awful lot to deal with in a short space of time. I'm sure if anyone can help this little bunny settle down, and become trusting again, then I would put money on you Craig, and Jan too of course. Then hopefully in due course, you would be able to bond her with her Leo. Just my thoughts Craig, but it's how you both feel at the end of the day, and I know you will give it lots of thought before making a decision. Good luck xx

 

[Craig 1965]

I think you should consider how she and Leo would get along together. She sounds like a strong, forceful character, but she is probably just very scared. I don't know how long she was at the foster carer's, but it's very possible that after a short while she would have calmed down once she knew she wasn't in any danger. The fact that she lived happily with two separate bucks would suggest that she would be able to bond with Leo. However, you know his personality and if after having her for a while you consider that they would not make a happy couple, you presumably would have the option of returning her to the rescue, as difficult as that would be.

The other issue, which would concern me is how she would react to being out in your garden. I don't know if this is something that she was used to doing in her previous home, but it is something that Leo gets a lot of enjoyment from. I would want to know that she would not be forever trying to escape as you would not be able to watch her the whole time. It's possible that this is something that was connected to her current state of anxiety, but it's also something to consider.

I don't mean my post to come across as negative. I always like to try to consider all aspects and you did sound as though you wanted this too. It sounds as though this poor little bunny needs a special new home. Leo also needs a new bunny wife. Your difficult task is to assess whether this could work. I really hope that it will.

Omi - your not being negative- not at all. I need this sort of feedback cause I kind of hold on to what was, not what is or has to be. The over riding view I got from the initial consultation was that this was a very settled contented and happy bunny. I would imagine being doted on by 2 bucks is quite the privilege and to then lose that very suddenly would test the resilience of most animals in my opinion. I feel that she has lost her confidence - completely understandable, as I have after losing Lillian 3 weeks ago. Like us, pets grieve and some more than others and from what was described, I think this is how this rabbit is. We have concrete standings for our fencing so it’s pretty secure from digging - or so I hope!
I’m hoping she will find the garden a sanctuary and where she feels safe.
It’s the bonding that is my main worry. I think it’ll be emotional overload for her right now so I think the best way forward is to let her adjust to everything here. The smells, sounds, views. She needs to tune in and hopefully once she feels confident and settled, then we can slowly move forward.
Thank you for your guidance omi. I’m very grateful.
Craig. X

 

[Cuthbert&Dillon]

No advice but just wanted to say sometimes things happen for a reason like a phone call about this little girl who needs an especially sensitive home with bunny carers who will let her find her feet again.

 

[nap91]

My initial quick response was that such an intuitive person as you would be great for this rabbit. Honestly your set up and and your sensitivity sounds to be just what she needs.

That was my thought too. I don't have any advice to add on top of the fantastic advice you've already received. If you do go ahead this little bunny will be coming into a loving family where she will receive the best possible care she could ever ask for, but whatever you decide will be based on what the best outcome is for both her and Leo. Good luck with your decision, Craig

 

[CarelessSquid07]

We had some boxing from Primrose after she had been widowed. We'd had them as a pair for about 5 months and she was very much the submissive bunny and a baby at 7 months old. They came to us as a pair of pampered housebuns but it was very obvious that Flopsy the older English Lop had been handled and interacted with much more.

The boxing calmed down once she realised we would respect her space, she very much didnt want us in one of her houses which was the one her partner Flopsy spent most of his time in. It was with my partner especially but me also.

And cleaning too as an issue, so we used to try and associate it with freedom and her exercise time and one of us would sneak in while the other did treats.

Spending a lot of time on the floor with her made a massive difference with us and amazingly despite his nippy bullish ways Rodney never got boxed at all. Although she was firmly in charge of him by the end of bonding.

It sounds like everything she has been through has taken its toll and she needs time and patience to learn to trust humans again. I think you'll be perfect with her and it sounds like Leo would be a perfect gentleman with her too.

We certainly found in both cases our grieving buns demeanor much improved on just having another bun nearby to smell and read body language from so even if she takes some time to settle hopefully Leo will enjoy her presence.



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[Rhianna]

I don't feel quite prepared. I can bring the outside hutch in to the kitchen/diner area and put additional bolts on the door to prevent her from pushing it open. QUOTE]

Would you be able to have a set up that didn't mean she would be enclosed in a hutch? I know I am anthropomorphising but I'm claustrophobic and would hate to be enclosed in a wooden box, even if it was a large wooden box. I would hate her to be desperate to get out of the hutch and to hurt herself in the process. I know that she would need to be contained somehow for her safety, especially when you have two unbonded buns sharing your home. Maybe puppy pen panels?

This poor bun sounds like she is desperate to be secure and happy again but has no idea how to achieve this and is trying to protect herself the best she can in a world she no longer understands. If anyone could facilitate her healing I think it would be you, Craig, and maybe in doing something positive for her it would help to ease your own pain a little.

I know I am being fanciful and I am not conventionally religious but I do believe that some animals are sent to us for a reason and maybe Lillian has directed this lost little lady to you?

Hoping none of this offends you in any way. I am just writing what I was thinking as I was reading your post.

xxx

 

[Craig 1965]

I don't feel quite prepared. I can bring the outside hutch in to the kitchen/diner area and put additional bolts on the door to prevent her from pushing it open. QUOTE]

Would you be able to have a set up that didn't mean she would be enclosed in a hutch? I know I am anthropomorphising but I'm claustrophobic and would hate to be enclosed in a wooden box, even if it was a large wooden box. I would hate her to be desperate to get out of the hutch and to hurt herself in the process. I know that she would need to be contained somehow for her safety, especially when you have two unbonded buns sharing your home. Maybe puppy pen panels?

This poor bun sounds like she is desperate to be secure and happy again but has no idea how to achieve this and is trying to protect herself the best she can in a world she no longer understands. If anyone could facilitate her healing I think it would be you, Craig, and maybe in doing something positive for her it would help to ease your own pain a little.

I know I am being fanciful and I am not conventionally religious but I do believe that some animals are sent to us for a reason and maybe Lillian has directed this lost little lady to you?

Hoping none of this offends you in any way. I am just writing what I was thinking as I was reading your post.

xxx

No one offends me - I’ve grown thick skin and value peoples opinions because they give perception. The day I stop listening and valuing people’s input is the day I become deaf and blind. So I truly value all you say.
My wife and I had been discussing this very issue regarding the hutch not 10 minutes ago. I feel very much as you do that this little grieving bun just wants space, not confinement. So we are looking at best ways to accommodate this.
One idea is to sort of relocate Leo into the living room - that’s not perfect by any means but he’s not destructo so he should be ok with that. The new bun can then settle in the kitchen/diner set up without being confined.
I treasure and value everyone’s opinions and advice. You are all such fantastic kind supportive people with huge hearts.
Craig xx

 

[MimzMum]

I can't add to anything that's been said except that I hope this bunny can find a home with you, Craig. It sounds like she's being put in your path. If it were me I couldn't find reason to refuse her.

Pip was a bit of a boxy bunny on and off during her 10 years but I think it was because she and Mimzy were my first bunnies and I was unaware of a lot of a rabbit's psyche and motivations. We had an understanding despite my original ignorance and although I never successfully bonded the 3 I had, as separate but aware of one another my bunnies had good lives because at all times I sought to respect them as individuals. You have such a loving home and caring manner towards your bunnies, if a happy life can be had by this rabbit it surely would be with you and Leo.

Keeping my fingers crossed that the best option works out for all of you. xx

 

[Rhianna]

No one offends me - I’ve grown thick skin and value peoples opinions because they give perception. The day I stop listening and valuing people’s input is the day I become deaf and blind. So I truly value all you say.
My wife and I had been discussing this very issue regarding the hutch not 10 minutes ago. I feel very much as you do that this little grieving bun just wants space, not confinement. So we are looking at best ways to accommodate this.
One idea is to sort of relocate Leo into the living room - that’s not perfect by any means but he’s not destructo so he should be ok with that. The new bun can then settle in the kitchen/diner set up without being confined.
I treasure and value everyone’s opinions and advice. You are all such fantastic kind supportive people with huge hearts.
Craig xx

That sounds like a really good set up for both buns and I'm really pleased you weren't offended by the part of my post about the hutch.

 

[dollyanna]

TBH I had a feeling someone was going to come along for you.
I have limited experience with rescue bunnies other than Odin, but with dogs we now strongly recommend a period of decompression when they enter a new home - time where there is as little presure put on them as possible, positive or negative. Often this means no walks for example, which might seem counterproductive but sometimes even that is too much to deal with.
If you decided to take her, I would giver her a set up where you could function entirely non-contact. Devise a way to safely enclose her away from you if needed for cleaning access - or make sure there are safe houses for her to run to. Don't attempt to interact directly, just chat away, randomly drop goodies in as you pass, but don't approach. Feed pellets and treats through the day rather than putting them in a bowl, so that every time you appear something good appears, even just a pellet or two, or a tiny sliver of vegetable. I am not hugely experienced with buns but I'd probably not try and bond at all until she has had time to at least feel safe at home, and is exhibiting normal bunny behaviour when on her own. Give her lots of enrichment activities, especially sniffing/snuffling, as these can aid in relaxation. And then I'd be tempted to bond with Leo before you make any attempt to handle her yourself. Once they are fairly happy together it will be much easier to just sit on the floor and let him demonstrate that you are safe, and if she's had a good relationship with people in the past I doubt it would take long.
I get that this is intimidating, but I can't actually imagine anyone better than you, from reading your posts. You have a beautiful way of understanding them and cherishing them and I'd put money on her responding well to that.
Given the time of year, maybe you could spend a couple of months at least letting her get really comfortable in the house and with Leo, and by the time it is nice enough to really want to be outside she might well have settled well enough to have no desire to run anymore anyway.

 

[tulsi]

The idea of leaving a new rabbit to settle in before bonding seems a good one to me and something that I had already decided to do with my new rabbit who will be coming on Saturday as a doe for recently bereved buck, Snowflake.

I will watch this thread with interest!

 

[binkyCodie]

its certainly a difficult call. I meant to throw my two cents into the ring but forgot .

I can say..dealing with an aggressive rabbit (likely through fear) can be..difficult, at best. you need to be able to keep a level head in terms of their reactions and not be upset or discouraged. I can say..this was really difficult for me personally. I throw my hands up in the air and sometimes thought about rehoming Luna to somebody more experienced than I was. its certainly upsetting (and painful) to have a rabbit who boxes and bites you. I especially worried if she was to bite my dad as he struggles to clot with a wound due to his illness.

I realise this probably sounds all very negative - and I don't mean it to be. with Luna, I persevered through and broke through that tough outer shell of a terrified rabbit, to have a wonderfully loving rabbit. but it took probably over a year for Luna, and even after, we continued to work through her behavioural issues as a whole.

it can be done, but if she is truly fear aggressive, it may take a lot of time, a lot of patience, and a lot of bandages to get through to her.

with Luna, I essentially used the tactic of any neutral or positive experience, she'd get a reward. comes up to investigate me? treat. ignores me putting hay in her litter box? treat. didn't bite me for touching her food bowl? treat. came to nudge my hand? treat. I just tried to reward any good behaviour with her, even neutral behaviour was good. her *not* attacking me when I refilled her hay was a positive experience for me, even tho she bundled up terrified, but she got a treat to reward that behaviour. & ofc, when she did lash out, I'd simply step back, give her some time, try again. no punishment, no anger, no anxiety. I had to remain calm, as I genuinely believe animals will feed off of our emotions.

as others have mentioned..she may not be aggressive at all. it may be just she's gone through a lot of change and is terrified, and just needs a stable home to find her feet again! but, you also need to be ready if she is aggressive to work through that no matter how difficult it may be. I am sure you would be able to break through to her with time, patience, and a whooole lotta food.

dollyana brings up a good idea too. a decompression period for her would probably be the best bet. I would also (personally) hold off bonding her until she's settled, and you've had a chance to work through her aggression somewhat (if that persists). you don't want to attempt to bond a rabbit that is terrified of you, as if you need to intervene, this may serve to upset her further. generally, I wouldn't want to bond until I've had chance to bond with the new rabbit and establish trust. +, I always recommend a quarantine period when bringing a new animal into the house. coming from a rescue, I doubt she has any illnesses, but it never hurts!

I do think you'd be a good fit for her Craig all things said however.