Really Concerned: Leg Problem

[LurcherGirl]

You might want to look into taking him to a McTimoney chiropractor as well (not instead of vet treatment, but in addition to it). I use one for myself and our dogs, and have taken a bunny to her once too! McTimoney chiropractors are not normal chiropractors and are very gentle. They put the spine and other bones back into alignment aleviating many pains and correcting joint/bone/muscle problems. Might be worth a shot if you have one near you.

Vera

 

[Carrie1983]

Thanks for that!

I use one for one of my horses, actually, and hadn't thought of using one for the bunny.

 

[Carrie1983]

Thank you to all those who posted replies and sorry I have not replied sooner, but I have just been on a 24 hour shift at work.

Friday night, bunny seemed a bit down and was reluctant to go in his litter tray (painful), so wasn't peeing. He is quite a clean bunny and will only pee in his litter tray with the megazorb down. He was pooing where he was sat. He wasn't eating as much, although he was still eating bits, especially if we gave him something a bit different (he likes a lot of variety). He gets loads and loads of hay as we make our own on our fields, and it's really good quality stuff. Like I said, vet said he's never seen a bunny as healthy.

Anyway, I got concerned about him holding the wee in and did not assume it was because he didn't want to pee where he lay. Litter tray had very few poos in (although what was there looked quite normal), so I immediately started thinking the worst, what with all the stress he's been under recently. I started feeling round he tummy to see if it was hard/bloated and it wasn't, but when I was having a feel, a load of wee came out (which vet said is normal, although as you can possibly imagine, the sight of gushing wee was quite frightening at first, coming from a woman who has had animals all her life, grew up on a farm and has seen some horrendous things!). Anyway, I brought his litter tray into his big part of his hutch as I felt he was struggling to get through into his hideaway where the tray usually is, and he started to use it a bit more. He was eating much more by the next morning and was more happy in himself (this was Saturday).

Nevertheless, I made an emergency appt for him at our vets practice, and my husband took him in (as I had work). He always shows us up at the vets because she put him on the floor and he hopped round the place, a little stiff but nowhere near as bad as at home and actually hopping freely. Then my husband put him back on the table next to his box and said Zebedee jumped CLEANLY on top of his big carry box! How to show your owners up as liars in one swift move!! She examined him and he's fine in terms of digestive health, but said the Metacam could be upsetting him a little (I'm thinking he's very recently also had a long course of Panacur and a big GA for the xrays), so to ease off for a few days and then reintroduce (to help prevent tolerance also), at which point the dose may have to be upped depending what the specialist vet says.

The vet told my husband that we should allow Zebedee to have a little exercise now (he has been restricted due to the injury), so we opened his bottom doors and he has been allowed to come in and out as he pleases. Husband said he spent a lot of yesterday in the garden, hopping around, alternating between gentle little hops to some more fast hopping. He's more sedate today, lying in the bottom of his house, but I am happier to have got him checked out.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Carrie1983]

UPDATE:

Rabbit expert vet (at the vet school) has agreed with my small animal vet (who I trust implicitly) that the xrays show no bone damage, no arthritis, no disc damage and no calcium deficiency.

The rabbit expert vet also agreed that Zebedee is unlikely to have contracted EC, which is what I already felt from my research and consultations with vet. There are several reasons for this: 1 - Zebedee has no contact with other rabbits; 2 - Zebedee is not on grass; 3 - Zebedee is regularly wormed. He also felt that the symptoms Zebedee was presenting were not necessarily just complicit with EC and that some vets are too quick to diagnose this when there could be other underlying issues as well.

He said we could do an MRI scan, but it will just confirm what he feels is wrong and will not help to treat/cure it, which is something he feels is unlikely to happen given the symptoms. The MRI scan could cost around £1000, and as Zebedee is a giant rabbit and 3 years old, he is fast approaching the average life expectancy for this type of rabbit.

The vet said that Zebedee's Metacam dose can now be upped to a 35kg dose (rabbits can be given 6x the dog dose as their metabolisms work in a different way), but the vet feels that it may not make much difference if the problem is being caused by what he 90% believes is causing it, which is unlikely to cause pain. He also agreed that on Friday, Zebedee went off his food because he was sick of being holed up after spending his whole life as a free-roaming bunny. He is eating, drinking, weeing and pooing fine now and is also allowed to get out and about again - much happier bunny.

Nevertheless, we will try the Metacam again in this higher dose and see if it helps him. We will also give light massage. There is little else that can be done, and we know that if his quality of life deteriorates whereby he is in excessive pain, depressed, not eating etc, then he will be PTS.

Anyway, the expert vet believes Zebedee has suffered a neurological trauma, which is on a broad spectrum from bangs to the head, lesions on the brain, to a stroke, tumours. We know that while we have been around him, he has not banged his head, but he may have done when alone. The stroke idea is 50/50 as it's just his legs that he's lost strength in. The specialist rabbit vet is happy that Zebedee is comfortable in general terms as he is eating and still TRYING to exercise etc (he's actually adapted very well to his lessened mobility).

So there's the update.

 

[lilbun]

Your vet is right that some vets are quick to jump to the conclusion that e.c. is responsible for many bunny ills. It does produce neurological and other symptoms, but there are other causes.
Was the full blood profile done? was the potassium level normal?
I hope your bun's condition improves xx

 

[Happy Hopping]

He is on 2.3kg dose daily, which is about 3ml I think. He weighs 6.5kg. My feeling is that it is sprain or nerve damage. He seems to be able to feel when I touch or stretch the leg.

3 ml is highly overdose. My bun weighs 5 KG, and she had bone cancer, we use 0.66 ml. The vets here uses the formula

dosage (in ml) = weight in Kg x 0.1 / 1.5

This is a partial list of owners who lost their pet due to overdose of metacam

http://metacamkills.com/

 

[prettylupin]

Sorry to hear your news in the sense that no treatment, but atleast you have a pretty certain idea now as to the cause. I'm sorry it wasn't more positive though for his outcome Atleast he is happy and content for now, that's all you can ask for I guess.
Neuro trauma does seem to fit, I'd agree with your vet. Vascular damage from a stroke or a bleed from a knock does seem likely doesn't it. It's hard for us all to guess without seeing Xrays or the bunny's movements. What a shame Well, some humans make a good recovery from stroke or head trauma so you never know! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for zebedee

 

[Carrie1983]

3 ml is highly overdose. My bun weighs 5 KG, and she had bone cancer, we use 0.66 ml. The vets here uses the formula

dosage (in ml) = weight in Kg x 0.1 / 1.5

This is a partial list of owners who lost their pet due to overdose of metacam

http://metacamkills.com/

Well the expert rabbit vet at the vet school has told us to up it to a 35kg dose! I will now go and measure this and tell you how much it is in mls. I will then let the vet at the vet school know that I've been told he's overdosing my bunny and see what he says.

 

[Carrie1983]

Your vet is right that some vets are quick to jump to the conclusion that e.c. is responsible for many bunny ills. It does produce neurological and other symptoms, but there are other causes.
Was the full blood profile done? was the potassium level normal?
I hope your bun's condition improves xx

Thank you very much for your good wishes. Bloods are normal or what is expected.

 

[Carrie1983]

Sorry to hear your news in the sense that no treatment, but atleast you have a pretty certain idea now as to the cause. I'm sorry it wasn't more positive though for his outcome Atleast he is happy and content for now, that's all you can ask for I guess.
Neuro trauma does seem to fit, I'd agree with your vet. Vascular damage from a stroke or a bleed from a knock does seem likely doesn't it. It's hard for us all to guess without seeing Xrays or the bunny's movements. What a shame Well, some humans make a good recovery from stroke or head trauma so you never know! I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for zebedee

Thank you ) It does feel better to have pinned it down. My usual vet has done an excellent job of pinning it down with the tests and examinations she has done; but the expert rabbit vet who specialises in rabbits obviously, has now confirmed this and gone a bit further. We are satisfied that we are doing the best for him, based on what the expert vet has told us, so fingers crossed he will stay happy for a while, but we don't hold out much hope for a recovery from the limb weakness/paralysis.

 

[prettylupin]

Neural networks can sometimes regenerate....stroke patients often gain some range of movement with physio so how about some gentle physio at home for Zebedee? It might help? and it might help you feel like you are doing something positive to help him

 

[Carrie1983]

Neural networks can sometimes regenerate....stroke patients often gain some range of movement with physio so how about some gentle physio at home for Zebedee? It might help? and it might help you feel like you are doing something positive to help him

Thank you very much for this. I am going to go on with the gentle massage/physio as it is also something the vet has suggested alongside the Metacam (which he may be taken off if it makes no difference to him). When he said 'brain lesion' and suggested that Zebedee had suffered a CNS trauma, I panicked and thought 'OMG it's over for him' and yes, it still might be, especially if his quality of life worsens (we are not in the business of keeping our animals alive selfishly) but there are things we can do for now to help him.

Like I said, he has adapted quite well and moves around quite quickly. Looks a bit like a catterpillar in his movements sometimes, though. Hehe.

 

[Carrie1983]

3 ml is highly overdose. My bun weighs 5 KG, and she had bone cancer, we use 0.66 ml. The vets here uses the formula

dosage (in ml) = weight in Kg x 0.1 / 1.5

This is a partial list of owners who lost their pet due to overdose of metacam

http://metacamkills.com/

Thanks for this link. Very interesting. My understanding from the expert rabbit vet and from my normal vet, is that cats take a smaller dose than dogs, and Zebedee is on the dog version. He also stated that rabbits can take upto 6x the dog dose as their metabolisms work differently to dogs, so Zebedee can take a much higher dose than a cat of similar size.

Also, for info, expert vet also stated that there is no accepted evidence that Metacam actually works for rabbits.

 

[lilbun]

Thanks for this link. Very interesting. My understanding from the expert rabbit vet and from my normal vet, is that cats take a smaller dose than dogs, and Zebedee is on the dog version. He also stated that rabbits can take upto 6x the dog dose as their metabolisms work differently to dogs, so Zebedee can take a much higher dose than a cat of similar size.

Also, for info, expert vet also stated that there is no accepted evidence that Metacam actually works for rabbits.

He said what? :?

 

[prettylupin]

All neural networks have the potential to regenerate, they just connect up with new nerves and in different ways, but it does depend on the extent of the damage and loss of vascular supply. The other thing with nerves is that regeneration takes a LONG time, so progress is frustratingly slow. However, if it is a lesion (neoplastic - tumour) then of course they have the potential to deteriorate. Did they take his blood pressure btw? do they do that for buns?? I wonder if he is perhaps just prone to TIA's or strokes through vascular disease, or a congential defect? I guess there is no way to tell what this was without an MRI and there's no point putting him through that if both vets are certain it is higher CNS.
Poor bunny never mind some gentle physio will help stimulate his muscles and help keep tone and power in them i'm sure and definitely worth trying Good luck to you and your bun

 

[Carrie1983]

He said what? :?

He said that there is no evidence that Metacam actually works for rabbits. Anecdotal yes, but he was talking about academic... in that it is made for cats and made for dogs but not for rabbits at this time. They can prescribe it to rabbits and he is not saying it will harm him, but he said there is no saying that it definitely helps them in the same way it does cats and dogs.

 

[Carrie1983]

All neural networks have the potential to regenerate, they just connect up with new nerves and in different ways, but it does depend on the extent of the damage and loss of vascular supply. The other thing with nerves is that regeneration takes a LONG time, so progress is frustratingly slow. However, if it is a lesion (neoplastic - tumour) then of course they have the potential to deteriorate. Did they take his blood pressure btw? do they do that for buns?? I wonder if he is perhaps just prone to TIA's or strokes through vascular disease, or a congential defect? I guess there is no way to tell what this was without an MRI and there's no point putting him through that if both vets are certain it is higher CNS.
Poor bunny never mind some gentle physio will help stimulate his muscles and help keep tone and power in them i'm sure and definitely worth trying Good luck to you and your bun

Thanks. Zebedee has days where he hops normally and other days where he can't hop at all, which is something that puzzled my normal vet - it's an intermittent problem.

 

[lilbun]

He said that there is no evidence that Metacam actually works for rabbits. Anecdotal yes, but he was talking about academic.

I assume he means because studies haven't actually been done on rabbits? Otherwise there would probably be a metacam rabbit version (parsley flavour?)

 

[prettylupin]

Maybe they mean no accepted evidence for Metacam working in 'these' circumstances....reducing brain swelling or improving neurological function? There may not be any pain if it was a stroke, so they might be using it purely for anti-inflammatory purposes??

It certainly works for all other sources of pain!!

 

[Carrie1983]

I assume he means because studies haven't actually been done on rabbits? Otherwise there would probably be a metacam rabbit version (parsley flavour?)

Yes, that's right! LOL! Cor, Zebs would love that! At the moment, he's loving munching on my home-grown herbs!