Mischief and Lillabelle's new diet plan

[twistedtiggerz69]

Mischief and Lillabelle need to lose weight. Based on the information given to me to read they are obese which makes me very sad. Mischief especially is having health problems which are exasperated by him being overweight. We have had help from members of RU especially Inspector Morse and Omi on how to feed them a healthy diet to lose weight gradually plus our vets has suggested that they need to lose 50 g per week.

Mischief was 6.2 kg and is now 5.545 kg so has lost 655 g
Lillabelle was 5.6 kg and is now 4.76 kg so has lost 840 g

However the original diet was started months ago but we have not really had help with this until recently and their weight has been up and down so their heaviest weight was summer last year I think?
For the last 8 weeks approx we have been much stricter but their weight loss has not been as successful as we would have liked.

So today we are reviewing their diet and making changes where necessary. Omi has asked me to list all the feeds they have at the moment...

8 am - fresh veggies (approx 105 g) -A cereal bowl EACH full of 3 or 4 different veg from this list:
(spring greens,curly kale,Cavolo Nero, a few leaves of spinach, broccoli and broccoli stalk,cauliflower leaves,sweetheart
cabbage,Savoy cabbage)

6 pm - fresh veggies and herbs (approx 105 g) -A cereal bowl EACH full of 3 or 4 veg from the list above and including 2 or 3 herbs
(usually parsley, coriander, dill, mint and NO spinach)

8-9 pm - Science Selective pellets.
-Mischief currently has approx 10 g (hand fed to him so he eats them slowly and a reward for doing his sore eyes)
-Lillabelle has approx 18 g (hand fed to her to encourage her to trust us and help with her nervousness)

11 pm - herb time approx 70-90 g to share between them on a large tray (4 small bowl fulls of different dried herbs, flowers and leaves from Nature's Grub to include
(Dandelion Leaf, Plantain, Blackcurrant Leaf, Chamomile flowers, Rose flowers, Lavender flowers, Echinacea, Lemon Balm,
Parsley stalks, Marigold Flowers, Nettle, Spearmint, Alfalfa forage, Red Cornflowers, Raspberry leaf, Birch Leaf, Strawberry
leaf, Hazelnut leaf, Red clover flowers, Sunflower petals, coriander stalks, Whole Hibiscus flowers, Cornflower Blue)

-plus a medium dandelion root each.

They currently have 3 different types of hay daily....
A stalky type of Meadow hay ( a pile put in the front of each of 2 litter trays to eat whilst pooping/peeing changed twice a day)
A soft Meadow hay with rose petals and plantain (as a treat every evening in a large bowl to share)
A green stalky Timothy hay (their main eating hay replenished 4 times a day)

They also have fresh willow sticks and other chew toys replaced as needed
NO commercial treats! (We give them a treat out of their daily food for example sprig of herbs or broccoli stem etc)

I realise we need to reduce their pellets to just a few hand fed daily. Do we just reduce their pellets straightaway or do we have to bring them down on the pellets slowly please? And what other meals do we need to reduce please?

I actually did the maths wrong earlier due to brain fog! Mischief has lost 155 g and Lillabelle has only lost 140 g since the 13th May (almost 7 weeks) based on our scales which may be wrong but we are taking them to the vets again Monday so will do a weigh in then. I am really disappointed they have not lost more but we are determined to do better from now on.

Thanks everybun

 

[InspectorMorse]

Overall their diet is fine in type and variety, but too much in quantity. They don’t need so many veg/herb meals a day, two would suffice. Morning and evening. A large cereal bowl of mixed fresh veg and herbs TO SHARE in the morning and again at night. They could have a large cereal bowl full of mixed dried forages per day TO SHARE, scattered on hay rather than put in a bowl. This will encourage a more natural feeding behaviour. In fact the fresh veg can be mixed in with fresh hay too. Having to forage about for the tasty food promotes natural behaviour and gives mental stimulation. We never see a wild bunny eating their food from a bowl! Scatter feeding also makes the Rabbit eat more slowly. It will take them longer to find the tasty food and so they are less likely to notice a reduction in quantity. And if they decide they are still hungry they have plenty of hay to fill up on. They might try to make you think that they will starve, but as long as they have tons of different fresh hays they certainly won’t .

Regular monitoring of weight will enable you to keep track of their progress and should a time come when they are going below an ideal weight some dietary adjustments can be made.

I would feed no more than 10 SS pellets a day as hand fed treats. You can reduce the pellet quantity straight away.

It would be good to try to encourage them to be as active as possible. Although as Mr chief is probably not feeling 100% it is understandable if he doesn’t have much enthusiasm for exercise. He could also have a poor exercise tolerance due to his compromised lung function.

 

[Omi]

The new thread is great and thank you for providing the details of their daily food. I agree with Jane, their diet is largely fine and in my view just needs a bit of tweaking, mostly in respect of the amount of pellets. I would also not get sad about the amount they have lost so far. They have both lost quite a bit, but over a longer period. Importantly too, you have cut out all commercial treats, which is excellent. Plus they are both happily eating a lot more hay, which is also excellent.

I think there are a few things to consider. They need to lose weight to be healthy bunnies. That means that while they are in the stage of losing weight their calories IN should be less than their calories OUT. You have control on the foods which produce their calories in and the aim should be to make those foods as healthy as possible and producing as many health benefits (eg wearing down teeth) as possible. You have less control over how energetic they are, although there are ways to improve this ie by making them run from one end of the hall to the other to receive a pellet You could also find that with a lighter body, they will enjoy moving around more and find it easier.

Regarding types of hay, it's great that the hay they prefer to eat is the timothy, which is great for their teeth and digestion. I agree with your comment regarding the dried nettles. They look to be interesting and stalky. I think one option could be to feed soft meadow hay one day and nettles the next. Although I think the nettle website said that they had only a small quantity, which suggests it won't always be available. Also I realise that the more forage/hay choices you buy, the more expensive it would probably be, so you may need to adjust.

I agree you could reduce the amount of pellets for both bunnies straight away and 10 seems a reasonable number to start with. I would use the quantity of pellets as your 'adjustor', depending on how quickly they need to lose weight. It is also important to ensure that when comparing weights over time, the weight needs to be as accurate each time as possible, which I think will become easier the more you do it. One tip is to weigh them at the same time each day. I think reducing pellets is the key element to them reducing weight and in my view more necessary than reducing plant material, but regular weighing will give you the data to adjust methods.

I think that it's the overall quantity of food per day, whether plant material or pellets, which is key. Personally I don't think that it matters whether you feed all at once or several times. I think this really up to you. Here, I spread the pellets out into 4 separate feeds, but if you wanted to, you could hand-feed 10 pellets singularly at different times, possibly making them run for them each time. I would also ask the vet regarding how much exercise Chief can be expected to do with his health issues, after he has examined him on Monday.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Omi has given you excellent advice. It is actually better for weight loss to be slow as if an obese Rabbit loses a lot of weight quickly they can develop hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver). A gradual downward trend over a long period of time is fine, things are moving in the right direction. As Mr Chief has known dental problems it will be especially important to monitor his rate of weight loss. Hay eating is obviously essential, but if his teeth start to bother him he might not be able to eat the quantity of hay needed each day. He will look as if he’s always eating it, but in reality it’s because it’s taking him much longer to chew each mouthful. So he will look as if he‘s eating more of it than he really is. So having an accurate record of his weight will enable you to quickly pick up on a sudden increase in the rate of weight loss. It doesn’t sound as though this is a problem at the moment though. It’s just something to bear in mind, especially when he gets to his ideal weight.

I don’t weigh my Rabbits daily, Just a couple of times a week. This gives a more realistic picture of what is going on, IMO

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Overall their diet is fine in type and variety, but too much in quantity. They don’t need so many veg/herb meals a day, two would suffice. Morning and evening. A large cereal bowl of mixed fresh veg and herbs TO SHARE in the morning and again at night. They could have a large cereal bowl full of mixed dried forages per day TO SHARE, scattered on hay rather than put in a bowl. This will encourage a more natural feeding behaviour. In fact the fresh veg can be mixed in with fresh hay too. Having to forage about for the tasty food promotes natural behaviour and gives mental stimulation. We never see a wild bunny eating their food from a bowl! Scatter feeding also makes the Rabbit eat more slowly. It will take them longer to find the tasty food and so they are less likely to notice a reduction in quantity. And if they decide they are still hungry they have plenty of hay to fill up on. They might try to make you think that they will starve, but as long as they have tons of different fresh hays they certainly won’t .

Regular monitoring of weight will enable you to keep track of their progress and should a time come when they are going below an ideal weight some dietary adjustments can be made.

I would feed no more than 10 SS pellets a day as hand fed treats. You can reduce the pellet quantity straight away.

It would be good to try to encourage them to be as active as possible. Although as Mr chief is probably not feeling 100% it is understandable if he doesn’t have much enthusiasm for exercise. He could also have a poor exercise tolerance due to his compromised lung function.

So to clarify do you mean drop one of their fresh veg/herbs a day? Just one in the morning? And then move their dried herbs meal to the evening? Or give them two fresh veggie/herbs meals a day and drop the dried herbs meal? And sometimes swap the fresh veggies for a dried herbs meal?

They really love their dried herbs though. Could we not still give them 2 fresh veggies meals a day but give them half the amount and they share it AND still give them their dried herbs at night but reduce that meal down as well? They always have their dried herbs on the tray next to their Timothy hay anyway so it would be easy to mix it in with their hay instead.

We gave them half the fresh veg we usually do this evening scattered on their Timothy hay as you recommended. As their spring green leaves are absolutely huge ( almost as big as Lillabelle) I just cut up one leaf and gave them that for their tea. This morning they had 3 veggies so it seemed ok to do.

The only issue with feeding them together is that Chief is such a piggy and a bit of a bully and gobbles it all up so quickly and as she eats so daintily she misses out. This is why we started to feed them separately so we could monitor how much they ate. Today he lay right next to it in front of Lillabelle (he sometimes even lies on top of their food) so she could not get to it easily. Lillabelle only ate one bit but then she started eating the Timothy hay and seemed perfectly happy. I was concerned though that she needs to eat fresh veg every day so I did give her a bit and she had another 2 bits as well. Chief ate the rest and also ate some Timothy hay so that is still a good outcome I think overall.

I realise we need to weigh them regularly and hopefully their scales DO work which we will find out for sure when the vet weighs them on Monday.

We have changed it to 10 pellets maximum from today. Chief jumped on the bed for them today so I did his eyes and gave him a pellet. I then picked him up and carried him to the hall as he wouldn't move I shook the pellets and called him to run up the hallway but he just sat their looking at me so my OH gently pushed him towards me but he just ran back in the bedroom. I will try again tomorrow. He does not do exercise that happily atm although he often does binkies and does runs around the bedroom sometimes.

On the other hand when I tried it with Lil's she did the run to me and got a pellet. Then I went back up the hall by the bedroom and she ran to me easily and got another pellet. She does the run to the bedroom happily but my OH had to gently push her to runaway from the bedroom to the kitchen which is understandable. Altogether she did a run up the hall 5 times so had a total of 5 pellets. I was pretty chuffed with that.

I will ask the vet about what exercise we can expect Chief to do although he used to chase Lil's around the room a couple of times when she mounted him before her spay but now she has stopped that so he gets less exercise. We will persevere though.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

The new thread is great and thank you for providing the details of their daily food. I agree with Jane, their diet is largely fine and in my view just needs a bit of tweaking, mostly in respect of the amount of pellets. I would also not get sad about the amount they have lost so far. They have both lost quite a bit, but over a longer period. Importantly too, you have cut out all commercial treats, which is excellent. Plus they are both happily eating a lot more hay, which is also excellent.

I think there are a few things to consider. They need to lose weight to be healthy bunnies. That means that while they are in the stage of losing weight their calories IN should be less than their calories OUT. You have control on the foods which produce their calories in and the aim should be to make those foods as healthy as possible and producing as many health benefits (eg wearing down teeth) as possible. You have less control over how energetic they are, although there are ways to improve this ie by making them run from one end of the hall to the other to receive a pellet You could also find that with a lighter body, they will enjoy moving around more and find it easier.

Regarding types of hay, it's great that the hay they prefer to eat is the timothy, which is great for their teeth and digestion. I agree with your comment regarding the dried nettles. They look to be interesting and stalky. I think one option could be to feed soft meadow hay one day and nettles the next. Although I think the nettle website said that they had only a small quantity, which suggests it won't always be available. Also I realise that the more forage/hay choices you buy, the more expensive it would probably be, so you may need to adjust.

I agree you could reduce the amount of pellets for both bunnies straight away and 10 seems a reasonable number to start with. I would use the quantity of pellets as your 'adjustor', depending on how quickly they need to lose weight. It is also important to ensure that when comparing weights over time, the weight needs to be as accurate each time as possible, which I think will become easier the more you do it. One tip is to weigh them at the same time each day. I think reducing pellets is the key element to them reducing weight and in my view more necessary than reducing plant material, but regular weighing will give you the data to adjust methods.

I think that it's the overall quantity of food per day, whether plant material or pellets, which is key. Personally I don't think that it matters whether you feed all at once or several times. I think this really up to you. Here, I spread the pellets out into 4 separate feeds, but if you wanted to, you could hand-feed 10 pellets singularly at different times, possibly making them run for them each time. I would also ask the vet regarding how much exercise Chief can be expected to do with his health issues, after he has examined him on Monday.

Firstly I have to say that the new Timothy hay is a success as they are now eating more hay. In fact they often don't have any pellets because they are full up on hay instead. Chief lies by it most of the time and is eating a great deal. As Jane said he could be eating slower due to his teeth I have been watching him closely but he is eating it quickly atm. If we go to tidy it up he growls and pounces at us like he does for his dried herbs. He absolutely loves this hay!

Lil's is also eating more hay. Especially today since we dropped their fresh veggies she is definitely eating it more. Also when she was in the litter tray she leant over the Meadow hay to try and get to the Timothy hay so I gave her some in the tray. They are not eating much Meadow hay now either but we will continue to put some at the end of their litter trays as we can throw any out when we clean out their trays and replace it as it is a lot cheaper. They did eat it before we got the Timothy hay. We have loads left but when it is finished we may look for a Meadow hay they love as much as the Timothy hay if that is indeed possible. I have never seen them eating so much hay! Of course we are not feeding them so much so that would make a huge difference. I feel we are really getting somewhere now!

Atm they are both lying there eating it together!
I realise they need to have less calories going in than out just like my diet and exercise plan. And if they are eating much more hay then we need to reduce their other foods accordingly. Getting them to exercise is more difficult. As I said in my earlier post Chief was reluctant to move anywhere except to run back in to the bedroom

Lillabelle has been running about full speed just now back and forth from the hall and she is very fast! So I am not unduly worried about her. You can see she is losing weight now and when you feel her ribs you hardly need to use any pressure and they are getting knobbly. Also her tummy is much smaller and less rounded. I think she is doing really well with her diet and she is definitely more active.

Even Chief is more active as he loses weight. Before his diet he never moved except to run to the litter tray and food and back under the bed. Now he is running around the bedroom and doing full binkies and shaking his ears and all four paws leave the ground! I have to be honest, I thought it was his age but now I know it was because he was so overweight. I think we have to be patient with him as he is starting to run about now and then but he still has weight to lose. Perhaps he will get more active when he loses more weight as you said? However I am also mindful that we can't push him too hard until we hear what the vet says about his respiratory issues.

As far as the hay is concerned their main hay to eat will probably be the Timothy hay. And they do nibble on the stalky Meadow hay but we have around 16 kg of it left so that will stay as the litter hay as it is cheap and we can just bin the old hay as we clean out the litter trays every day and replace it with new. The soft meadow hay (with rose petals and plantain) they hardly eat now and it is nearly run out so we could replace it with the dried nettles or another hay or just keep it to two types of hay. I think we need to find a new non-expensive Meadow hay they love when the ols runs out but I may order the nettles if there is any left as it looks stalky so could help Chief's teeth. We could scatter it over the Timothy hay maybe? Or feed it with their dried herbs etc?

We reduced their pellets to 10 tonight. Lillabelle has had all hers but 5 she had to run up the hall for so a great result. Also Chief only had one pellet after I did his eyes as a reward and he seems to have forgotten about the rest. They are still both eating their hay since half hour ago when I started to write this post Hopefully I will get faster with practice.

Yes we have decided we will keep the pellets to be fed as a treat for either things like doing Chief's eyes, trimming their nails,giving them a good brush (which is often atm as they are now both really moulting and fine white fur keeps getting blown around by the fan! )and when they run up and down the hall, jump up when we jump or do a meerkat impression etc etc

We are going to weigh them at 4 pm twice a week before they have their veggies in the evening. I hardly ever wake up to feed them their morning veggies as I am often up til the early hours with pain and sometimes I am still awake to feed them in the morning. Luckily my OH is so reliable and also Lillabelle jumps on the bed and scrabbling and even jumps on his head! Or she will make so much noise scratching on the glass bottom of our table and wake him up! Luckily they are not relying on me as I would sleep through armageddon

Yes I agree the pellets should be reduced and they are a good way to control their weight so we have started giving them just 10 pellets a day. And we have halved their greens so they share one bowl full a day scattered on the hay. However we really don't want to stop their herbs. They love it so much and we have cut it down lots already.

One thing though...their favourite food is definitely dandelion root which we will still give them but monitor how much they have. If there are large roots in the bag we take them off the buns when they are half eaten and give them the rest the next day. That is the only treat (if a big one) where they both run off away from each other to eat it. Lil's used to run off a lot from Chief with a commercial treat but not Chief. Only dandelion root he gets protective of. So we really want them to still have it. I want them to be happy enjoying their food as well. But we have reduced so much other food from today so they should lose weight from now on surely?

Yes I agree that us lowering their calorie intake is key so we will start with reducing the pellets to 10 a day max (Chief has only had one today!) and reducing their fresh veggies to a cereal bowl to share twice a day. And a smaller dried herbs meal at night. I can just give them smaller bowl fulls of each and they wouldn't notice. I think I should leave it at that for a fortnight and then review their diet to see how much they have lost in that time. Then we can change it again if needs be.

Thank you Omi and Inspector Morse for all your help. We love our buns and see them as our children so it is important that we love them but not loving them too much that we give in and overfeed them too much

 

[InspectorMorse]

Morning- 1 large cereal bowl of fresh mixed veg and herbs to share

Evening - same

Dried forage still given, preferably scattered in hay

 

[bunny momma]

You mention they like the dried herbs a lot. Is there a reason they cannot be given their dried herbs as a reward instead of pellets?

Both me and my spouse fed my bunnies, and they started to beg from both of us, so it was hard to know exactly how much they were eating each day. So other than their hay, I now portion out their food the night before and throughout the day we both take their food from their daily ration.

 

[Omi]

I do think that Chief will move more when he's lost some weight. Being leaner should also help with prevention of arthritis, which will help also with mobility.

If he doesn't currently want to run for a pellet, then I wouldn't give it to him. That way, you win either way really I would make them run for their Dandelion root too.

I wouldn't be concerned if they don't have a variety of 3 different hays. My bunnies usually only have timothy, although they do get fresh grass as well most of the year. I certainly wouldn't consider throwing any hay away. I would use it up in litter trays.

I agree with leaving their diet as it is and then seeing how their weight is in two weeks' time with accurate measurements. I do think that they and you are progressing very well with their diet. Eating a lot of timothy hay per day is certainly very beneficial in many ways.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

The new thread is great and thank you for providing the details of their daily food. I agree with Jane, their diet is largely fine and in my view just needs a bit of tweaking, mostly in respect of the amount of pellets. I would also not get sad about the amount they have lost so far. They have both lost quite a bit, but over a longer period. Importantly too, you have cut out all commercial treats, which is excellent. Plus they are both happily eating a lot more hay, which is also excellent.

I think there are a few things to consider. They need to lose weight to be healthy bunnies. That means that while they are in the stage of losing weight their calories IN should be less than their calories OUT. You have control on the foods which produce their calories in and the aim should be to make those foods as healthy as possible and producing as many health benefits (eg wearing down teeth) as possible. You have less control over how energetic they are, although there are ways to improve this ie by making them run from one end of the hall to the other to receive a pellet You could also find that with a lighter body, they will enjoy moving around more and find it easier.

Regarding types of hay, it's great that the hay they prefer to eat is the timothy, which is great for their teeth and digestion. I agree with your comment regarding the dried nettles. They look to be interesting and stalky. I think one option could be to feed soft meadow hay one day and nettles the next. Although I think the nettle website said that they had only a small quantity, which suggests it won't always be available. Also I realise that the more forage/hay choices you buy, the more expensive it would probably be, so you may need to adjust.

I agree you could reduce the amount of pellets for both bunnies straight away and 10 seems a reasonable number to start with. I would use the quantity of pellets as your 'adjustor', depending on how quickly they need to lose weight. It is also important to ensure that when comparing weights over time, the weight needs to be as accurate each time as possible, which I think will become easier the more you do it. One tip is to weigh them at the same time each day. I think reducing pellets is the key element to them reducing weight and in my view more necessary than reducing plant material, but regular weighing will give you the data to adjust methods.

I think that it's the overall quantity of food per day, whether plant material or pellets, which is key. Personally I don't think that it matters whether you feed all at once or several times. I think this really up to you. Here, I spread the pellets out into 4 separate feeds, but if you wanted to, you could hand-feed 10 pellets singularly at different times, possibly making them run for them each time. I would also ask the vet regarding how much exercise Chief can be expected to do with his health issues, after he has examined him on Monday.

Please excuse my late reply to this post Omi and anybun else who has posted on here. I have been answering posts for Chief in the other thread as a priority and I am very slow at typing atm. This new thread is great btw! Thanks so much x

Also I apologise that I have not been on other threads about sick bunnies due to not having time. It is not me being selfish and not bothering. I intend to catch up reading other threads and info over time and will post on threads as well.

I do agree that it is better that they lose weight slowly and your words of encouragement help so much. I am really pleased that I have not been giving them commercial treats for a while now. It definitely helps that we give them treats out of their daily rations as I feel happier when we can reward them when we do things like doing Chief's eye's, brushing them and trimming their nails etc. I am finding that they are happy with just a pellet or 2 when they are begging for a treat which did surprise me. I thought they would expect the lot in one go.

We did their nails this morning and I cleaned Mischief's bottom as he had poops stuck to him and had to do his anal glands. He is good at cleaning himself but sometimes he does struggle and I realise his weight could be a factor. They had a couple of pellets each for being so good and they did not ask for more.

Actually I have a question. It is not diet related but I don't think it warrants a new thread just for this:- I have real trouble cleaning Chief's anal glands as the icky stuff gets really stuck to him. I soak the area and then gently use cotton buds to try and remove the icky stuff (I don't know what this is called) but some of it is just really stuck to him. His skin is so sensitive and thin there so I just did the best I could but I do this regularly and it is always the same problem. He also really stinks! A Reader of Books said on another post to me about this that his anal glands may be blocked? Is this a vet job then? Is there any tips anybody could give me on how to get this ick off please?

Back to their diet...Omi I am so very happy! They are both eating so much Timothy hay! They eat about 4 piles a day the size of Lillabelle (except the shorter small bits) and are often sitting there together happily munching away. They love the stalky hay which is fantastic news as it will help so much with their teeth. And they are so full up on hay that they are not begging much at all.

We now scatter the fresh veggies for Chief on the hay and he often starts eating hay instead of his veggies! We have to scatter Lillabelle's fresh veggies on the floor away from Chief as he will bully her to get all the food otherwise. We are mindful that she could miss out on important foods and nutrients. I hope that sounds like a good plan? She is eating lots of hay and her poops are much bigger and fluffier inside. I checked them and I was so happy! We had tried different ways to get her to eat more hay before with no success and bought lots of different Timothy hay and not noticed any difference. Of course it is the hay that makes the difference. They hardly eat the Meadow hay now either although I did see Chief eating some today. Thank you so much! It will make so much difference to their diet now as we have reduced all the other feeds so they now eat even more hay!

I have just seen the time! Sorry Omi I will have to finish replying to your post tomorrow after the vets as I need to get sleep so my OH can wake me in the morning! It will be a nightmare to wake me up if don't go to bed soon x

 

[InspectorMorse]

Re anal gland cleaning, dip the tip of a cotton bud in a tiny bit of olive oil and use that to gently remove the wax. If the Rabbit goes on to lick the area the olive oil won’t harm them. They would only ingest a tiny amount, if any.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Thank you IM I will try that x

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Finally my tablet is working as keeps shutting down this week and I am feeling ok to write on here! I have grandkids here for weekend and my granddaughter likes to play on my tablet so can't be on here too long

Morning- 1 large cereal bowl of fresh mixed veg and herbs to share

Evening - same

Dried forage still given, preferably scattered in hay

Yes we have been doing that but Chief eats most of it and lies all over the hay/fresh veg and herbs and also herbs in evening. We agree that scatter feeding is better so we are now scattering on the hay for Chief, but slightly less fresh veggies for Lillabelle we scatter on the floor away from Chief so he can't bully her

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

You mention they like the dried herbs a lot. Is there a reason they cannot be given their dried herbs as a reward instead of pellets?

Both me and my spouse fed my bunnies, and they started to beg from both of us, so it was hard to know exactly how much they were eating each day. So other than their hay, I now portion out their food the night before and throughout the day we both take their food from their daily ration.

Yes we are now taking it out of their daily rations but mainly a sprig of fresh herbs or a piece of broccoli stalk. The dried herbs is their favourite meal but we have cut it down lots. They only get a bowl full from 3 or 4 different herbs (a bowl full is about a medium sized hand full) which usually consists of two bags of leaves, mainly dandelion leaves and plantain (if they are in stock) and then another bag or 2 of mixed flowers/herbs/leaves. And also a dandelion root or 2 each depending on size.

We have found a big problem with their herbs though...Nature's Grub have changed their website including prices and weights of their stock. They have changed the 1 kg bags to 5 kg so now we can't afford to buy their herbs each month from there and we are really annoyed about that! We can still buy kilo bags from their other company, Bunny Bistro, but the mark up per bag is around £4 so now it is expensive to buy from there.

We just got a bag of plantain, dandelion leaves and dandelion root nibbles plus a small 350 g bag of mixed herbs. Usually the dandelion root nibbles are still a reasonable size for my two but this time the roots are too tiny as a big treat. So we can give these as small treats but as they are so small we can also scatter them on their hay with their other dried herbs. (We call that meal their 'herbs' or 'herbies' for future reference). We don't usually weigh them, just give them a root each to gnaw on, but these roots are teeny.

The herbs are not great to give individually as a treat as it is all leaves and bits. It works best as a scatter feed. We have always scattered these on their food tray but recently we scatter this over their Timothy hay. We can also scatter their dandelion roots on the hay but how much should we scatter please? Bearing in mind how they are giant buns could someone give me an idea of weight they could have for these please?

Chief has worked out how to get the best treats already...he has realised that the nice bits often fall through the hay so he pushes his head under the hay and goes tunneling for treats, hoovering them up. Again, this concerns me that Lillabelle will miss out. I feel we should maybe give her a few dandelion nibbles as treats and do the same for Chief and then maybe just scatter a few on their hay as well?

 

[InspectorMorse]

Try Bunny Bistro, a subsidiary of NG

Bunny Bistro UK | The Home of Natural Forage | Rabbit & Pet Food

We stock a large variety of pet food. We sell 100% natural forage for Rabbits, Guinea Pigs, Chinchillas, Degus & all small animals.

www.bunnybistro.co.uk

NG has gone more retail supplier now

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I do think that Chief will move more when he's lost some weight. Being leaner should also help with prevention of arthritis, which will help also with mobility.

If he doesn't currently want to run for a pellet, then I wouldn't give it to him. That way, you win either way really I would make them run for their Dandelion root too.

I wouldn't be concerned if they don't have a variety of 3 different hays. My bunnies usually only have timothy, although they do get fresh grass as well most of the year. I certainly wouldn't consider throwing any hay away. I would use it up in litter trays.

I agree with leaving their diet as it is and then seeing how their weight is in two weeks' time with accurate measurements. I do think that they and you are progressing very well with their diet. Eating a lot of timothy hay per day is certainly very beneficial in many ways.

Yes Chief is definitely much more active. He hardly ever moved before unless it was for his meals but now he runs around the bedroom, he jumps on the bed for treats or if a meal is due. They know when it is tea at 6 pm and then their herbs at 11 pm and they both jump on the bed and, as I said before, they bully us until we give in and feed them their meals. He hardly ever jumped up on the bed before his diet. Maybe once a day? Now it is several times a day!

They also do the kitchen run every night. I give them a treat if they run down the long hallway to our kitchen. They stand by the kitchen door waiting. It is fantastic to see them there together sitting waiting.I give them a sprig of herbs each or a piece of broccoli stalk and now may give them a dandelion root as they are so tiny. They do the run more than once and they get a pellet each time or another treat. Our hallway is very long so they have to be active to go down there and back.

We also sit each end sometimes and they run back and forth to get a pellet each time. Lillabelle has got this sorted and does the hall run most times but Chief has a way to go just yet. He sometimes does it once. We will keep persevering though.

When he was a young kit I taught him a game when I jump up in the air and then he copies. I haven't tried this game for years as he never showed interest in any activity tbh but I tried it yesterday and he jumped up and copied the first time! I was so chuffed. He did a full binky, all four paws off the ground and shook his head and his ears flew up. He looked so cute.

They have both been more active. Lillabelle often does zoomies around the bedroom and down the hall and back, then she comes hurtling through the bedroom door and runs around then under the bed. Sometimes Chief even chases her! They have been getting up to mischief recently. When I have time I will write it in the bunny stories section

Chief has 2 pellets for doing his eyes. He does not run off the bed now and stays there patiently while I do them. As he hated it so much before I give him one pellet for his eyes but two if he sits there quietly. Chief now has to run or do a binky or something to be rewarded

They have 3 hays currently but we are dropping the soft hay as they don't eat it much anymore. They still love their 'green' Timothy hay and we often now see them both sitting there happily munching it which is a fantastic result and makes me so so happy. We use the meadow hay at the end of their litter trays and put any dirty hay just scattered in the litter tray.

Chief just started to get dirty paws again. I'm not sure if it is from where they wee/poop in the litter tray or from the big tray. We have to scatter a thin layer of hay over the whole litter tray to prevent this but I know Inspector Morse said not to put it where they wee. They do not eat this hay though. Tbh they don't really eat much Meadow hay at all anymore. I think we need to find another Meadow hay or other hay now that they prefer even if it is a bit more expensive per kg. Anybody who knows of a good quality Meadow hay or other hay (but not Timothy), that is reasonably priced, but also very popular with their buns please could you let me know? That would be very helpful. We have half a bale left of it so we will look around once they are near finishing this one. Thank you so much

We also think it is probably Lillabelle who wees on the big tray next to their Timothy hay. We clean it up as soon as we notice which is a few times in 24 hours and remove any hay that is near the puddle. Is there anything we can do to stop her weeing on there so much please? That could also be why Chief gets brown feet. He has always been a bit of a klutz and is often weeing/pooping then standing in it but we need to prevent it where possible.

We did weigh them yesterday and they were almost the same weight as Monday at the vets. Chief has put on 35 g but we now feed them separately for their fresh veggies as he pigs it all otherwise. We think he is eating so much hay that we need to look at adjusting his meals a little. We have decided to keep their weigh ins to Monday and Thursday so easier to track and we weigh them at the same time every day which is before their fresh veggies at 5 pm.

Lillabelle is looking really slim. She looks like a baby bunny actually. When we feel her we can feel her spine and ribs easily and she has
a tiny tummy at all under her fur. When she has just eaten you can feel her tummy is full but it is not big at all. Based on that I feel we need to slow her losing weight now. We have agreed to give her slightly less fresh veggies than Chief and she is fed separately. I feel that she may eat more hay if she is not so full on her veggies meal. She is still not eating as much hay as Chief which is why we feel she may be too full to eat hay. Also should we up her pellets to keep her weight from getting too low?

We are mindful that she had fat around her tummy when the vet spayed her. My OH keeps reminding me when I keep mentioning she had fat around her organs that the vet only said 'a little' fat in her tummy! I'm not sure if I told you guys that though? Bearing that in mind, do we have to get her weight down lower than her ideal weight first so that she loses all the fat inside her as much as poss please? Or do we slow her diet down now so she stays a level weight ? I just don't want her getting too skinny. She is slighter than Chief but as a French lop she is still stockier than the average bunny.

Mischief still has a big belly. The vet said Lillabelle is the perfect weight but Chief needs to lose just a little on his tummy so we stick to the normal diet for him. He gets 10 pellets. How many should Lillabelle have now please? She has 10 pellets atm. I want her to eat more Timothy hay but she feels the perfect weight now under her fur to me which is great news!. And I am checking her a few times a day so I can tell you how she feels before and after food.

The photo I put on here of her eating from her hay toy is over 2 weeks ago. She looks small in comparison as well as scruffy from her moult. She won't let us brush her so we try and groom her by hand. We are going to try grooming her with a wet hand later as I read before that it helps

Yes I have to agree that the reason this diet is working so well is due to them eating much more hay. I feel Chief must be eating around 80% hay now. Apart from his sleep in the day he is usually eating Timothy hay and his herbs and veggies scattered on it. Lillabelle does eat it regularly but I still feel she needs to eat more which is why I thought it would help to cut her fresh veggies slightly. Do I have the right idea?

Ok I have to go as my 3 year old granddaughter wants to go on my tablet and as we have her til Monday I would rather keep her happy! She can be a little devil at times so probably best I just let her on here. I don't want her throwing a tantrum!

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Try Bunny Bistro, a subsidiary of NG

Bunny Bistro UK | The Home of Natural Forage | Rabbit & Pet Food

We stock a large variety of pet food. We sell 100% natural forage for Rabbits, Guinea Pigs, Chinchillas, Degus & all small animals.

www.bunnybistro.co.uk

NG has gone more retail supplier now

Yes I did that but the mark up is around £4 compared to Nature's Grub. I may not have a choice unless you know any other places I could get dried feed please? We got it direct from Bunny Bistro this time and if that is the best place to get feeds from then we will have to just deal with the extra cost and maybe get a bag less a month. Maybe get 2 bags of leaves (eg dandelion leaves, plantain)and one bag of mixed herbs, flowers, leaves (to add lovely smells and nice surprises in their hay) plus a bag of dandelion root. We were getting 2 bags of leaves and 2 of mixed (eg Vitality salad, Herbs and Flowers) up til now but we can make 3 bags last a month now since we have reduced their 'herbies' I think. We will find out this month

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Actually I don't know why but I thought it was more, but just went to go on NG site again and BB site came up but prices are similar from what I remember.

I just checked and I bought it from 'Wild about bunnies' last time as NG had no plantain. Wild about bunnies IS more expensive but BB prices are same as before. So I know from now on to get it from BB. Thanks Jane x

 

[Omi]

Yes Chief is definitely much more active. He hardly ever moved before unless it was for his meals but now he runs around the bedroom, he jumps on the bed for treats or if a meal is due. They know when it is tea at 6 pm and then their herbs at 11 pm and they both jump on the bed and, as I said before, they bully us until we give in and feed them their meals. He hardly ever jumped up on the bed before his diet. Maybe once a day? Now it is several times a day!

They also do the kitchen run every night. I give them a treat if they run down the long hallway to our kitchen. They stand by the kitchen door waiting. It is fantastic to see them there together sitting waiting.I give them a sprig of herbs each or a piece of broccoli stalk and now may give them a dandelion root as they are so tiny. They do the run more than once and they get a pellet each time or another treat. Our hallway is very long so they have to be active to go down there and back.

We also sit each end sometimes and they run back and forth to get a pellet each time. Lillabelle has got this sorted and does the hall run most times but Chief has a way to go just yet. He sometimes does it once. We will keep persevering though.

When he was a young kit I taught him a game when I jump up in the air and then he copies. I haven't tried this game for years as he never showed interest in any activity tbh but I tried it yesterday and he jumped up and copied the first time! I was so chuffed. He did a full binky, all four paws off the ground and shook his head and his ears flew up. He looked so cute.

They have both been more active. Lillabelle often does zoomies around the bedroom and down the hall and back, then she comes hurtling through the bedroom door and runs around then under the bed. Sometimes Chief even chases her! They have been getting up to mischief recently. When I have time I will write it in the bunny stories section

Chief has 2 pellets for doing his eyes. He does not run off the bed now and stays there patiently while I do them. As he hated it so much before I give him one pellet for his eyes but two if he sits there quietly. Chief now has to run or do a binky or something to be rewarded

They have 3 hays currently but we are dropping the soft hay as they don't eat it much anymore. They still love their 'green' Timothy hay and we often now see them both sitting there happily munching it which is a fantastic result and makes me so so happy. We use the meadow hay at the end of their litter trays and put any dirty hay just scattered in the litter tray.

Chief just started to get dirty paws again. I'm not sure if it is from where they wee/poop in the litter tray or from the big tray. We have to scatter a thin layer of hay over the whole litter tray to prevent this but I know Inspector Morse said not to put it where they wee. They do not eat this hay though. Tbh they don't really eat much Meadow hay at all anymore. I think we need to find another Meadow hay or other hay now that they prefer even if it is a bit more expensive per kg. Anybody who knows of a good quality Meadow hay or other hay (but not Timothy), that is reasonably priced, but also very popular with their buns please could you let me know? That would be very helpful. We have half a bale left of it so we will look around once they are near finishing this one. Thank you so much

We also think it is probably Lillabelle who wees on the big tray next to their Timothy hay. We clean it up as soon as we notice which is a few times in 24 hours and remove any hay that is near the puddle. Is there anything we can do to stop her weeing on there so much please? That could also be why Chief gets brown feet. He has always been a bit of a klutz and is often weeing/pooping then standing in it but we need to prevent it where possible.

We did weigh them yesterday and they were almost the same weight as Monday at the vets. Chief has put on 35 g but we now feed them separately for their fresh veggies as he pigs it all otherwise. We think he is eating so much hay that we need to look at adjusting his meals a little. We have decided to keep their weigh ins to Monday and Thursday so easier to track and we weigh them at the same time every day which is before their fresh veggies at 5 pm.

Lillabelle is looking really slim. She looks like a baby bunny actually. When we feel her we can feel her spine and ribs easily and she has
a tiny tummy at all under her fur. When she has just eaten you can feel her tummy is full but it is not big at all. Based on that I feel we need to slow her losing weight now. We have agreed to give her slightly less fresh veggies than Chief and she is fed separately. I feel that she may eat more hay if she is not so full on her veggies meal. She is still not eating as much hay as Chief which is why we feel she may be too full to eat hay. Also should we up her pellets to keep her weight from getting too low?

We are mindful that she had fat around her tummy when the vet spayed her. My OH keeps reminding me when I keep mentioning she had fat around her organs that the vet only said 'a little' fat in her tummy! I'm not sure if I told you guys that though? Bearing that in mind, do we have to get her weight down lower than her ideal weight first so that she loses all the fat inside her as much as poss please? Or do we slow her diet down now so she stays a level weight ? I just don't want her getting too skinny. She is slighter than Chief but as a French lop she is still stockier than the average bunny.

Mischief still has a big belly. The vet said Lillabelle is the perfect weight but Chief needs to lose just a little on his tummy so we stick to the normal diet for him. He gets 10 pellets. How many should Lillabelle have now please? She has 10 pellets atm. I want her to eat more Timothy hay but she feels the perfect weight now under her fur to me which is great news!. And I am checking her a few times a day so I can tell you how she feels before and after food.

The photo I put on here of her eating from her hay toy is over 2 weeks ago. She looks small in comparison as well as scruffy from her moult. She won't let us brush her so we try and groom her by hand. We are going to try grooming her with a wet hand later as I read before that it helps

Yes I have to agree that the reason this diet is working so well is due to them eating much more hay. I feel Chief must be eating around 80% hay now. Apart from his sleep in the day he is usually eating Timothy hay and his herbs and veggies scattered on it. Lillabelle does eat it regularly but I still feel she needs to eat more which is why I thought it would help to cut her fresh veggies slightly. Do I have the right idea?

Ok I have to go as my 3 year old granddaughter wants to go on my tablet and as we have her til Monday I would rather keep her happy! She can be a little devil at times so probably best I just let her on here. I don't want her throwing a tantrum!

When deciding what and how much to feed either of them, think of this as two aims. Firstly to maintain them both at an ideal weight and secondly to ensure that, for teeth and digestive reasons, the majority of their food should be hay.

It sounds from your update that Chief scores well with eating hay, but needs to lose a little more weight. If from your weighings you find he is slowly losing weight, then I would keep his food as it is now. Pellets can be used to vary his weight loss, so reducing them a bit further if he is not losing weight.

With Lillabelle, she seems to be at an ideal weight, but is not eating enough hay. This can be rectified by reducing her calories, so that she fills up more with hay. I would reduce the amount of pellets that she has, rather than their herbs or veggies. So if she is having 10 pellets a day, I would maybe reduce that to 5. Weighing her twice a week will reassure you that she is not losing any weight. She should then start to eat more hay to make up for the reduction in pellets. Use the quantity of pellets to train her to do what you want her to do.

Bunnies, in my experience, will wee and poo only in one area of their litter tray. They do not eat hay from this area. I must admit I can't think why Chief is now getting dirty feet. I think any alternative Meadow Hay will likely get a similar reaction to the one you have, ie they won't eat it. I consider my two really excellent hay eaters, but they will avoid eating any hay they don't like. Why are you thinking of getting more Meadow Hay?

It's really great that they are exercising a lot more

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Sorry for not replying for a while.

It looks like it is Lillabelle that is weeing on the big tray where we put their green hay. We clear it up but she wees again. Usually by the green hay but sometimes actually on it. We hoped getting her spayed would help but it hasn't.

Mischief keeps standing in this wee and poop that Lillabelle does. Then he may jump into the litter trays. As they are such big bunnies you can imagine their wee and poop is a lot more. This is making Mischief's white feet go brown. Sometimes it is not so bad. It depends if he stands in it before we get a chance to clear it up. In the mornings it is quite bad as she wees and poops in the night.

They have two extra large litter trays which we use for them to wee and poop in. We put meadow hay on the end and wood litter in it. These two litter trays are at the back wall sitting on a giant tray (from a giant crate). We also put their green hay on the giant tray in front of the litter trays.

This is becoming a real issue for us now. Their lovely green hay is for eating only. I think she is confused what is going on. I think she is so used to having hay in her litter trays so she just sees this other 'green's hay as a place to go to toilet aswell. If we put the hay in a hay rack then they don't eat so much of it.

I don't know if there is something else we can try now.

We still have lots of meadow hay but when this has gone we want to try another type of hay.

I will write their weights up seperately.