Lillabelle not eating

[bunny momma]

Given your lack of access to a rabbit savvy vet, if the vet you have access to is willing to learn then you may be ok when there is no alternative.
Ask them to show you how to give sub q fluids. They are not as effective as iv fluids if a bunny is extremely ill, yet are the second thing I give after pain meds since gut contents may be hard even in a hydrated rabbit.
Fluids are also good to help flush bi products of meds and to monitor wee.
Medicam has a wide range of dosages, though vets rarely dose at the higher levels due to risk to organs especially if for more than a couple days. I always ask vet to calculate max dose for me to give in an emergency if the recommended one does not control the pain.
Syringe feeds promote gut movement. I do not do if the tummy feels full or distended, or if obstruction likely. If bunny is passing poo other than liquid, I know material is getting through.
Be sure to !monitor pee as well as poo.
Sending more vibes.

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

We are back from the vets. He didn't check her over again. We are very annoyed that on e again the vet is not up to par.

I said on the phone we need to discuss pain relief for her. He said yes we will talk about it but he just gave us a box of Loxicom for dogs saying give 6 units.

So no point even asking him as he had no clue. We know you can't say amounts so we are taking her pain relief amount from her spay. So we will give her 1.6 mls for 3 days and then hopefully we can find a rabbit savvy vet to review this by then. If that is wrong please could somebody tell me asap. We are giving it in 2 split doses of 0.8 mls every 12 hours.

Going back to Lillabelle...he gave her prokinetics though (but no fluids this time ☹) and we are hoping she will improve more with the correct pain meds. We also were given Harrison's recovery food. Is this normally one given to birds though?

Lillabelle seems brighter. She has been nibbling at a little hay and like I said she loved her banana and pellet breakfast. She has been going over to Chief this morning and lying down next to him. Yesterday she was just facing a wall away from us and ignoring Chief altogether which is very upsetting to see.

I don't want to get too excited as I know gut stasis takes a while to go but we are holding on to the fact we are seeing improvement. And that she has pooped a lot. I just hope there is not loads of fur still in her tummy. I will read all your lovely posts (thank you everybun) in a bit with a much needed coffee. We are so tired but we were expecting a long few days as we had that when Chief had gut stasis.

We have given her 0.8 mls of Loxicom for dogs so we will now leave her for an hour before syringe feeding her. How often would anybun recommend syringe feeding her please? We upped it to 1.5 hours apart early hours of this morning but we can do this whenever needed. Should it be done more than that please?

 

[InspectorMorse]

How much does she weigh now ?

Did the Vet not examine her at all ?

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

We have already said to each other we will weigh her when her pain killer works so soon. It means we are thinking along the right line as you at least

No he did not feel her tummy or check her at all. I think he does not know what to do tbh so does nothing. Well other than give her prokinetics again.

She is eating a little hay as in nibbling it but not really eating and she has passed some soft stools from her last syringe feed and she is now dozing off. She is so exhausted bless her. She is due a feed though so we have to disturb her

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Recovery food is wrong. It is for birds and small animals. Not rabbits. This is so frustrating as now means we have none until we go there tomorrow. They have ordered the recovery food for rabbits as they ordered the wrong one ☹

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Given your lack of access to a rabbit savvy vet, if the vet you have access to is willing to learn then you may be ok when there is no alternative.
Ask them to show you how to give sub q fluids. They are not as effective as iv fluids if a bunny is extremely ill, yet are the second thing I give after pain meds since gut contents may be hard even in a hydrated rabbit.
Fluids are also good to help flush bi products of meds and to monitor wee.
Medicam has a wide range of dosages, though vets rarely dose at the higher levels due to risk to organs especially if for more than a couple days. I always ask vet to calculate max dose for me to give in an emergency if the recommended one does not control the pain.
Syringe feeds promote gut movement. I do not do if the tummy feels full or distended, or if obstruction likely. If bunny is passing poo other than liquid, I know material is getting through.
Be sure to !monitor pee as well as poo.
Sending more vibes.

That sounds a good idea. John is such a lovely person and the vets are wanting to help but I fear he has no experience with rabbits. I was thinking that Inspectormorse gives me lots of articles to read and I try however they are hard to take in for me. But maybe John would be interested in learning about rabbits? Although they are extremely busy so when he will have time idk.

Our last vets has gone from 4 stars on reviews down to 2.5 stars. They are expensive and their customer service is terrible. Our new vets has only been open 2 months and they are getting so busy taking on the customers leaving our old vets. John is a good vet for dogs and cats and they are so friendly there. I hope he will be open to learning more about rabbits aswell as he loves our two.

It was too late to ask about giving sub q fluids today as we have already left the vets plus he did not give her fluids today. I only saw him give one syringe and he said it was metaclopramide.

As my vets seems to know nothing about what dosage to give her he just gave us a 15 ml bottle that says give 5 units based on 5 kg weight. As we don't know the dosage we can't work it out? However our old rabbit savvy vet gave us a dosage of 1.6 mls daily for her after her spay. She was 5.015 kg at last weigh in but we will weigh her today to check again. I just thought we will just have to give her that as we have no choice really. I am thinking gut stasis would probably hurt as much as a spay if not more. Our old vets gave us a maximum dose of 3.2 mls after her spay so 1.6 is half that.

I realise that we are winging it really. We are only giving this dose for 3 days as we know that Loxicom can hurt internal organs if given on high amounts for a long time. We just don't want her to be in pain. We don't want any long term damage for her and she is so young so no high doses. We have no rabbit savvy vet to ask. If his is wrong please say. Otherwise we will give it to her and just pray she recovers ok from this in next 3 days

We also are still having to find time to brush and comb Chief so no more high quantities of fur get in to their guts in future.

 

[InspectorMorse]

was the old Vet using the cat or dog Metacam ?

For a 5kg Rabbit the standard dose rate of DOG Metacam is 1ml-2ml/day

‘’Dosage​

(this is the dose text from the current edition of the BSAVA formulary, 8th Edition)​

Small mammals: Rabbits: 0.3 – 0.6mg/kg subcutaneously (underneath the skin) or by mouth every 24 hours; (this equates to 0.2 – 0.4ml/kg, i.e. millilitres of liquid per kilogram of your rabbit’s body weight if using the dog liquid.) Studies have shown that rabbits may require a dose exceeding 0.3mg/kg every 24 hours to achieve optimal plasma levels of Meloxicam over a 24-hour interval.

Doses of 1.5mg/kg per day (1ml per kilo of the dog liquid) subcutaneously or by mouth were well tolerated in healthy rabbits in good hydration for 5 days.
Do not alter the dosage your vet has prescribed without discussing this with your vet first.’’

Full text:

Drug Focus: Meloxicam

Read Richard Saunders' Meloxicam Focus Piece today. Explore Dosage, Uses, Risks and more.

rabbitwelfare.co.uk

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

We went to the shops to get some of her favourite herbs and green veggies but she just turns her nose up at them

When we came back she had done some smaller wet poops so I guess it's cecals that are not formed together properly maybe? There has been long stringy, elastic type mucus as well as the poops. We read ip on it so know it could be very serious.

My OH is trying to get her moving along the hallway and she is not wanting to do it.
We can't do anything more than this. Sadly we need a vet now. I just feel like I've failed her now

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

was the old Vet using the cat or dog Metacam ?

For a 5kg Rabbit the standard dose rate of DOG Metacam is 1ml-2ml/day

‘’Dosage​

(this is the dose text from the current edition of the BSAVA formulary, 8th Edition)​

Small mammals: Rabbits: 0.3 – 0.6mg/kg subcutaneously (underneath the skin) or by mouth every 24 hours; (this equates to 0.2 – 0.4ml/kg, i.e. millilitres of liquid per kilogram of your rabbit’s body weight if using the dog liquid.) Studies have shown that rabbits may require a dose exceeding 0.3mg/kg every 24 hours to achieve optimal plasma levels of Meloxicam over a 24-hour interval.

Doses of 1.5mg/kg per day (1ml per kilo of the dog liquid) subcutaneously or by mouth were well tolerated in healthy rabbits in good hydration for 5 days.
Do not alter the dosage your vet has prescribed without discussing this with your vet first.’’

Full text:

Drug Focus: Meloxicam

Read Richard Saunders' Meloxicam Focus Piece today. Explore Dosage, Uses, Risks and more.

rabbitwelfare.co.uk

Thank you for this. The worries I have is that she may be dehydrated or other problems and so the drug could cause her liver or kidney damage.

1.6 mls daily is the amount the old vet gave us for after her spay. This is definitely the Loxicom for dogs as I have the usual brown bottle here with the old vet instructions on it. If I give her that she is within normal limits but it also may not be enough for her right now. But I feel I not know enough to give her any more

Idk what to do tbh. The old vet won't help us. The only place we could take her is the PDSA. As Lillabelle is our 2nd pet registered we have to pay half. But we may be able to agree they have our last money and claim the rest off insurance. But they don't have an x-ray machine I don't think. So would be for prokinetics, sub q fluids and advice on pain relief only. They may see her. I can ring them tomorrow but they can't help us much due to lack of equipment.

Idk what else we can do right now.

 

[Graciee]

Can you answer how much she weighs now?

Are you giving oral fluids? This can help a lot as the water goes straight to the gut.

Has a blockage been ruled out? Or have they just done the prokinetics anyway? Do you have the dosage and what prokinetics she's on?

Did they do a blood glucose test? This would be basic and indicate if there's a blockage without xray if the pdsa don't have one.. Not ideal ofc tho

Sorry if I've missed any of that info, I struggle with finding info in big text walls sorry

 

[InspectorMorse]

Some mucous with poo during recovery from gut stasis is common




Fecal poo after as a Rabbit is recovering from gut stasis





cecotroph during recovery





Can you feel her belly, if so does it fell bloated?

is her respiratory rate faster than normal ?
is she still more active or has she gone very flat again?
Are her ears still warm ?

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

So she weighs 5.165 kg. She has put on some but her weight is no different since last weigh in at the vets 2 weeks ago.

We did realise she does need fluid orally now since not receiving any sub q fluids at the vets today. So we have started that now. She also has pellet dust mixed with water and banana but is quite runny to get through the syringe even though we use a large 60 ml one.

A blockage has NOT been ruled out. Our vet is not rabbit savvy but is all we have until later in week maybe longer.

They have given her prokinetics plus sub q fluids since Sunday. Idk what dose but was from looks same size as one ml syringe. Sorry can't tell you more than that. I really don't know anywhere near enough. She was given metaclopramide each visit to vets daily since Sunday night.
We have seen very soft poops that seem to be cecals from the smell. She also has pooped strings of poop with fur entwined around them. I did tell the vet we have been dealing with a very heavy moult and she is always cleaning Mischief.

No glucose test done yet and their x-ray machine is open. We are going to vets tomorrow. I can ask them if they will do this for her? I realise Jane has suggested this but I have only just realised that she said it (Sorry my brain does not register sometimes) so I need to request that tomorrow.

She is eating the odd bit of hay when we waggle it in front of her face. She is looking brighter than yesterday and her poop output is not great. We have had the odd cluster of soft poops or cecals though plus one hard poop just now.

Sorry I message so long. I am not good at writing short messages

 

[Graciee]

So she weighs 5.165 kg. She has put on some but her weight is no different since last weigh in at the vets 2 weeks ago.

We did realise she does need fluid orally now since not receiving any sub q fluids at the vets today. So we have started that now. She also has pellet dust mixed with water and banana but is quite runny to get through the syringe even though we use a large 60 ml one.

A blockage has NOT been ruled out. Our vet is not rabbit savvy but is all we have until later in week maybe longer.

They have given her prokinetics plus sub q fluids since Sunday. Idk what dose but was from looks same size as one ml syringe. Sorry can't tell you more than that. I really don't know anywhere near enough. She was given metaclopramide each visit to vets daily since Sunday night.
We have seen very soft poops that seem to be cecals from the smell. She also has pooped strings of poop with fur entwined around them. I did tell the vet we have been dealing with a very heavy moult and she is always cleaning Mischief.

No glucose test done yet and their x-ray machine is open. We are going to vets tomorrow. I can ask them if they will do this for her? I realise Jane has suggested this but I have only just realised that she said it (Sorry my brain does not register sometimes) so I need to request that tomorrow.

She is eating the odd bit of hay when we waggle it in front of her face. She is looking brighter than yesterday and her poop output is not great. We have had the odd cluster of soft poops or cecals though plus one hard poop just now.

Sorry I message so long. I am not good at writing short messages

Oh I see! So you haven't been given an oral med like emeprid to give 3 times a day?

Poop output is excellent

Definitely do the oral hydration

I really hope she improves soon, stasis can be so nasty. Do you have a rabbit savy vet you can use going forward? Because the care she's received does sound really poor tbh, it's worse than my non rabbit savy vets I use out of hours

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Some mucous with poo during recovery from gut stasis is common




Fecal poo after as a Rabbit is recovering from gut stasis


View attachment 2734


cecotroph during recovery



View attachment 2735

Can you feel her belly, if so does it fell bloated?

is her respiratory rate faster than normal ?
is she still more active or has she gone very flat again?
Are her ears still warm ?

The mucus is different. Long thin strands of what feels like elastic but is a form of mucus I think.

Her respiratory rate is faster than normal.
She was active for a bit and we went out and she has gone flat again.

We syringe fed her at 9pm and she was struggling and really really strong. My OH had trouble holding her. She spat a lot of the feed out tbh.

She has eaten the odd strand of hay and sprig of herbs but otherwise not eating by choice.

Her ears are warm-ish. Not cold like Sun night but maybe a bit cooler than normal.

 

[joey&boo]

I'm sorry she's been so poorly. Good you have a little input and output. Sounds like she fancies something high in fibre which is very sensible. If you've any bunny safe trees nearby they may help - such as apple. I hope she continues to make improvements

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

Oh I see! So you haven't been given an oral med like emeprid to give 3 times a day?

Poop output is excellent

Definitely do the oral hydration

I really hope she improves soon, stasis can be so nasty. Do you have a rabbit savy vet you can use going forward? Because the care she's received does sound really poor tbh, it's worse than my non rabbit savy vets I use out of hours

No emeprid. Just Loxicom.

Do you think?I thought it was good too but everyone is asking if she has been checked for a blockage so I have been so worried that she has on

We will try. She is spitting a lot out but she is starting to nibble on food then stops again. We are keeping the syringe feeds and fluid up hoping a little will go down.

She is getting more like herself in nature. Very clever and very stubborn. It really is a battle of wills and she is getting savvy to how she can spit it out. She is so tired though. She has not slept much. We are letting her sleep for a while and whispering everywhere and have covered up half the area so it is dark where she is.

Thank you. Yes Mischief had a nasty stasis time and we thought we were losing him but he bounced back. We did feed Chief a lot. Every 2-3 hours I think? I remember as we took turns sleeping.

Is 2-3 hourly feeds enough do you think?

Yes we are finding it awkward as he obviously has no clue about rabbits but we don't want to embarrass him plus he is the only vet we can see until Friday at the very least. They are really wanting to help and they care too. It's a shame we can't have the nice vet and then he has the same experience on rabbits as our old vets.

We will have to look around again to see what vets we can get to

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I'm sorry she's been so poorly. Good you have a little input and output. Sounds like she fancies something high in fibre which is very sensible. If you've any bunny safe trees nearby they may help - such as apple. I hope she continues to make improvements

Thank you joey&boo. We have readigrass and oat hay here plus 2 kinds of timothy hay but no trees. We have apple twigs. I will try those

 

[twistedtiggerz69]

I just wanted to let you know she has pooped over 16 new poops of usual formation if slightly smaller.

We are happy with that and as Lils is so tired we are leaving her to sleep for a couple of hours.

Thank you to InspectorMorse and Bunny Momma especially plus anyone else I haven't answered yet. We are having a sit down as been full on

 

[susie bun]

Good to see the latest update on poops. Do hope she continues to improve. You are doing your very best for her.

 

[InspectorMorse]

I hope the poo output is continuing to improve.

Is she breathing fast all the time, or just after she has been handled and so likely to be stressed ? Did you manage to feel her abdomen ?

Prokinetics need to be given every 6-8 hours, I think you said you have been given metoclopromide ?