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Blueberry's mystery illness UD p145 got through to Molly

I think it's chronic kidney disease from what I've been researching on the Internet and putting it together with everything we've found out so far. What I'm reading is better than cancer, but it's still pretty grim. By the time he gets to this stage where he is now, anything from two thirds to three quarters of both kidneys have stopped functioning apparently and cannot be repaired. It's also progressive so we can't cure it, we can only slow it down and eventually he'll get renal failure and die or have to be pts. So we can try and slow it down with diet and/or medication, and he'll need repeated blood/urine tests on a regular basis.

I know it's not confirmed and won't be for at least until the test results comeback but the same thing that told me he was poorly is telling me this is what the problem is. I'm so angry at myself right now that I didn't pursue it last July when I first thought something was wrong and it's only the past few weeks with this dramatic weight loss to do something. Doing something in July could have made a difference. I've been a paranoid owner, but not paranoid enough. :evil:
 
Sarah1989 said:
I think it's chronic kidney disease from what I've been researching on the Internet and putting it together with everything we've found out so far. What I'm reading is better than cancer, but it's still pretty grim. By the time he gets to this stage where he is now, anything from two thirds to three quarters of both kidneys have stopped functioning apparently and cannot be repaired. It's also progressive so we can't cure it, we can only slow it down and eventually he'll get renal failure and die or have to be pts. So we can try and slow it down with diet and/or medication, and he'll need repeated blood/urine tests on a regular basis.

I know it's not confirmed and won't be for at least until the test results comeback but the same thing that told me he was poorly is telling me this is what the problem is. I'm so angry at myself right now that I didn't pursue it last July when I first thought something was wrong and it's only the past few weeks with this dramatic weight loss to do something. Doing something in July could have made a difference. I've been a paranoid owner, but not paranoid enough. :evil:
Click to expand...

It's so easy to go through all the 'should have dones' at a later time but you might not have had enough 'evidence' from tests to confirm anything back in July anyway. When Artie was confirmed to be in kidney failure it was actually the x-ray that was considered to be the strongest evidence (he didn't have any blood tests as we were actually expecting this outcome eventually, given he'd had a kidney removed due to kidney stones). If it's quite advanced then the bones on his x-ray will show up as denser than they would normally be as the calcium is not being excreted but stays in their body and too much of it goes to the bones. I, sadly, assumed this would make his bones stronger but in actual fact it doesn't. They also suffer from bone pain in the very late stages which I wish I'd been aware of prior to it happening. He was on Metacam in the last week of his life to control the pain. I wish I'd never taken him off it in hindsight.

If it is kidney disease then I hope he's got quite a bit of quality time left... same goes, of course for whatever the diagnosis is.
 
I hope that whatever the diagnosis is, whether it be CRD or RD secondary to a heart problem, that with appropriate medication his condition can be controlled xx
 
Bunny Buddy said:
It's so easy to go through all the 'should have dones' at a later time but you might not have had enough 'evidence' from tests to confirm anything back in July anyway. When Artie was confirmed to be in kidney failure it was actually the x-ray that was considered to be the strongest evidence (he didn't have any blood tests as we were actually expecting this outcome eventually, given he'd had a kidney removed due to kidney stones). If it's quite advanced then the bones on his x-ray will show up as denser than they would normally be as the calcium is not being excreted but stays in their body and too much of it goes to the bones. I, sadly, assumed this would make his bones stronger but in actual fact it doesn't. They also suffer from bone pain in the very late stages which I wish I'd been aware of prior to it happening. He was on Metacam in the last week of his life to control the pain. I wish I'd never taken him off it in hindsight.

If it is kidney disease then I hope he's got quite a bit of quality time left... same goes, of course for whatever the diagnosis is.
Click to expand...

After I posted that post, I remembered we had a urine sample taken and tested in July and it came back all hunky dory. So even I can't think of anything to torture myself about right now. Don't worry though, I'll think of something :lol:

His bone weren't mentioned so I think they're ok. I can't remember if calcium was mentioned in his blood test just now unfortunately, I know phosphorus was. It was quite technical so it went over my head a bit, but the research I've done since helped jog my memory and make some sense of it all. They've ruled out dental disease as they x rayed his skull as well as an internal mouth exam. They've been very thorough with him, i couldn't be happier with the care he's had from them.

I read metacam isn't good for them if they have kidney problems as its a NSAID or whatever it's called, they have to be given a pain killer that's not one of those NSAID things. Same category as human ibuprofen if I remember rightly.

Do you mind me asking what you did with Artie to treat/manage his condition and how long he lived with it? I'm sorry to be nosey as it's an upsetting subject, I'd just like to know as much as possible so I can be realistic about things.

In himself he's acting like he always has done. If it wasn't for the dramatic weight loss, you'd wouldn't know there was anything wrong with him. I'd just like to realistically have an idea of how long I may have with him. Can I hope for years, or is more like months or even weeks? I'd like to make the most of our time together and mentally prepare (as much as possible) for the inevitable if that is the case. I just don't understand how this can have happened, he's not two until June, he's not an old rabbit or even an ageing one :cry:
 
Sarah1989 said:
Do you mind me asking what you did with Artie to treat/manage his condition and how long he lived with it? I'm sorry to be nosey as it's an upsetting subject, I'd just like to know as much as possible so I can be realistic about things.
Click to expand...

I think the way we dealt with Artie would be a lot different to how you would treat a younger rabbit with kidney failure, so probably not entirely relevant.

Artie had been on Frusomide and Metacam for about 4 years because of bladder sludge problems. He was having his bladder expressed every 4 weeks and there were clues realistically that his kidney was starting to fail when there was less sludge to express every time it was done. FHB told me of her suspicions, she also could feel he had lost weight, though not notably condition. If we hadn't been closely monitoring his other conditions and if we didn't know he had only one kidney there really would have been no clue he was unwell at that time expect the weight loss. He was 8 1/2 years old at this stage. In mid-Feb 2013 when his urine came back as clear she told me of her belief that his kidney was no longer functioning as well as it needed to and offered an x-ray to confirm, which was undertaken. She explained the information on the x-ray to me and said, "Looking at that x-ray, although we know his kidney isn't working as it should, he could still have a year left.. could be a lot less ... but could be a year." So, he was 8.5 year old dwarf lop - being told he's not likely to live beyond 9.5 isn't really anything I wasn't expecting, 8.5 was amazing given his history. Her advice was just to "take him home and enjoy him... as you have been doing. ". He was taken off Metacam and Frusomide that day and he died about 14 weeks later. If she had told me "about 14 weeks left" at the consultation it would have killed me, but I enjoyed the precious time I had with him because it 'could' be another year. We decided he should go back onto Metacam for the last week because he was in pain, it was either PTS or Metacam, it made a huge difference to him. It's only in retrospect I realise he ahd been in pain to some extent ever since coming off Metacam :cry: FHB says she hasn't seen any evidence that Metacam does damage kidneys in rabbits, it does in other species but she doesn't believe so in rabbits. He was also on Zantac at the end which would be highly recommended as it's various properties including in humans it would help control the nausea symptoms which 'could' apply for rabbits, so might make them more likely to keep eating.

There would be various options like subcutaneous fluids but for various reasons we decided not to go that route, in his case.
 
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Sorry I have no advice to offer IF he does have a kidney problem. (If ihe was a human that would be a different matter ).

I'm glad that it wasn't what you feared the most. (Not techy enough to do a happy dance :D)

Fingers crossed for good test results and that you can treat/manage whatever his problem is.

He's such a sweetie and I love his beautiful blue eyes.:love:
 
Bunny Buddy said:
I think the way we dealt with Artie would be a lot different to how you would treat a younger rabbit with kidney failure, so probably not entirely relevant.

Artie had been on Frusomide and Metacam for about 4 years because of bladder sludge problems. He was having his bladder expressed every 4 weeks and there were clues realistically that his kidney was starting to fail when there was less sludge to express every time it was done. FHB told me of her suspicions, she also could feel he had lost weight, though not notably condition. If we hadn't been closely monitoring his other conditions and if we didn't know he had only one kidney there really would have been no clue he was unwell at that time expect the weight loss. He was 8 1/2 years old at this stage. In mid-Feb 2013 when his urine came back as clear she told me of her belief that his kidney was no longer functioning as well as it needed to and offered an x-ray to confirm, which was undertaken. She explained the information on the x-ray to me and said, "Looking at that x-ray, although we know his kidney isn't working as it should, he could still have a year left.. could be a lot less ... but could be a year." So, he was 8.5 year old dwarf lop - being told he's not likely to live beyond 9.5 isn't really anything I wasn't expecting, 8.5 was amazing given his history. Her advice was just to "take him home and enjoy him... as you have been doing. ". He was taken off Metacam and Frusomide that day and he died about 14 weeks later. If she had told me "about 14 weeks left" at the consultation it would have killed me, but I enjoyed the precious time I had with him because it 'could' be another year. We decided he should go back onto Metacam for the last week because he was in pain, it was either PTS or Metacam, it made a huge difference to him. It's only in retrospect I realise he ahd been in pain to some extent ever since coming off Metacam :cry: FHB says she hasn't seen any evidence that Metacam does damage kidneys in rabbits, it does in other species but she doesn't believe so in rabbits. He was also on Zantac at the end which would be highly recommended as it's various properties including in humans it would help control the nausea symptoms which 'could' apply for rabbits, so might make them more likely to keep eating.

There would be various options like subcutaneous fluids but for various reasons we decided not to go that route, in his case.
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing that story. I agree it is different as he has both kidneys and a lot younger, but it's still good to hear from others who've experienced similar. Maybe I don't want to know how long he has left. I don't know really. I want to make the most of my time with him regardless.
 
Found you! I couldn't understand why I hadn't seen your thread because obviously i've been reading the health board a lot - makes sense now :lol:

How's Blueberry doing? He's gorgeous :love: Sending lots of vibes.
 
Only just seen this (due to holiday :) ) but hope Blueberry is doing ok, and the tests mean you can start treating him properly and hugs and nose rubs to him x
 
Jolysium said:
Found you! I couldn't understand why I hadn't seen your thread because obviously i've been reading the health board a lot - makes sense now :lol:

How's Blueberry doing? He's gorgeous :love: Sending lots of vibes.
Click to expand...

It started off as a thread asking about ideal weights for rabbits hence why I posted it in rabbit chat but it has now evolved into a thread following his progress so could do with being in health really now :lol:

He has been doing a lot better since his procedure strangely enough as he's not on anything different. Maybe he thinks that if he perks himself up I won't take him back? :lol: poor Blueberry, he'll be very disappointed if so!

He's also decided he doesn't like his panacur any more and shows some resistance to taking it :roll: but I'm secretly pleased about that as I think it's a sign he's feeling better if he wants to fight me :oops:

He also seems to have learnt the new routine - I go in their room, he hops out for extra food whilst everybun else gets their normal rations, hay & water topped up etc. I don't let him go back until I'm satisfied with what he's eaten. Mean mummeh that I am! :lol: all for his own good though! :love:
 
I got a call from the vet yesterday. The infectious diseases blood test, EC test & trepanoma (sp?) tests are not back yet as they had to be sent off to America(!) and so I should get those next week.

The poo sample came back negative for parasites and the urine was more dilute than it should be.

All the test results and x Rays etc have gone to the specialist - Molly Varger? Anyone know her/dealt with her?

The vet doesn't think it's kidney disease as he's not showing all the symptoms of it and she says it maybe that we never find out, but obviously if the specialist says different we will go with that.

Personally I'm wouldn't be happy with "he's gaining weight now so we never know the cause, end of." I want to know what it is and it treating so he can have a normal life and we don't have to worry about him deteriorating again.

I've been weighing him daily and last night he was 1.39kg so he is doing nicely. :love: He's a lot more active and back to his normal self now. I can't believe the difference in him and that he'd deteriorated so much! :cry:

At the moment, he is fed separately from Slipper and he is getting extra food too. I go in in the morning to give bunnies their breakfast and Blueberry gets to come out for his. I top up hay/water for everybun and then I get ready for work. When I'm done, I wait for Blueberry to finish eating and then I herd him back in with Slipper. There's loads of hay so I have to trust he's eating when I'm not there. When I get home, I bring Blueberry downstairs for weighing and some extra herbs in the kitchen and then he goes back upstairs for his dinner. He gets two egg cup full of pellets whereas everybun else gets 1 each. I have to leave him for about 1-2 hours to ensure he's eating enough before I can put him to bed and then I go to bed myself. I also give him his panacur at this point although the 28 day course is finished on Sunday.

I'm very worried that if I stop this routine, he'll deteriorate again hence why I want to know what's causing it and get it treated. It's all well and good doing this, but that relies on me being here for him 24/7. Don't get me wrong, I adore him and don't mind, but that's also extremely restrictive on my life and means I can't really do anything other than go to work and supervise Blueberry. What happens if I need to go somewhere over night or something happens where I can't be with him 24/7? I'd be loath to have him sent to boarding like my others purely because of the extra tlc he needs. So that's my main concern right now. Plus I know the guidelines for feeding is 1 egg cup a day of pellets, not two so really long term he needs to be ok on one and not two like now but until we get to the bottom of this, I'm not reducing him in case of relapse.
 
Glad he's making progress and sounds like your vets are doing all the right things

Molly Varga is a bunny supervet. She's based in
Holmes Chapel, does a lot of the bunny presentations for Pet Webinars and updated the Textbook of Rabbit Medicine after Frances Harcourt Brown.
 
I was glad to hear he has put on more weight :thumb: I think it's Molly Varga from what I've read on here? I think she is in Cheshire somewhere (Holmes chapel seems to ring a bell) I'm sure she is extremely well thought of. Re the eggcup per bun per day rule, I go on the individual, Dandy and Beano are only diddy bunnies but very lively, and outdoor. I give them 3 small handfuls a day, they still eat tonnes of hay. Whereas Boots has a tiny handful, anymore than that it affects the amount of hay he eats. Plus he's more sedentary and laid back and indoors too.
 
dumblepaws said:
Glad he's making progress and sounds like your vets are doing all the right things

Molly Varga is a bunny supervet. She's based in
Holmes Chapel, does a lot of the bunny presentations for Pet Webinars and updated the Textbook of Rabbit Medicine after Frances Harcourt Brown.
Click to expand...

I googled her after I posted this and I was :shock: at how awesome she is so I'm thrilled she's looking at Blueberry's case for us :love: only the best for my boy :love:
 
Sarah1989 said:
I got a call from the vet yesterday. The infectious diseases blood test, EC test & trepanoma (sp?) tests are not back yet as they had to be sent off to America(!) and so I should get those next week.

The poo sample came back negative for parasites and the urine was more dilute than it should be.

All the test results and x Rays etc have gone to the specialist - Molly Varger? Anyone know her/dealt with her?

The vet doesn't think it's kidney disease as he's not showing all the symptoms of it and she says it maybe that we never find out, but obviously if the specialist says different we will go with that.

Personally I'm wouldn't be happy with "he's gaining weight now so we never know the cause, end of." I want to know what it is and it treating so he can have a normal life and we don't have to worry about him deteriorating again.

I've been weighing him daily and last night he was 1.39kg so he is doing nicely. :love: He's a lot more active and back to his normal self now. I can't believe the difference in him and that he'd deteriorated so much! :cry:

At the moment, he is fed separately from Slipper and he is getting extra food too. I go in in the morning to give bunnies their breakfast and Blueberry gets to come out for his. I top up hay/water for everybun and then I get ready for work. When I'm done, I wait for Blueberry to finish eating and then I herd him back in with Slipper. There's loads of hay so I have to trust he's eating when I'm not there. When I get home, I bring Blueberry downstairs for weighing and some extra herbs in the kitchen and then he goes back upstairs for his dinner. He gets two egg cup full of pellets whereas everybun else gets 1 each. I have to leave him for about 1-2 hours to ensure he's eating enough before I can put him to bed and then I go to bed myself. I also give him his panacur at this point although the 28 day course is finished on Sunday.

I'm very worried that if I stop this routine, he'll deteriorate again hence why I want to know what's causing it and get it treated. It's all well and good doing this, but that relies on me being here for him 24/7. Don't get me wrong, I adore him and don't mind, but that's also extremely restrictive on my life and means I can't really do anything other than go to work and supervise Blueberry. What happens if I need to go somewhere over night or something happens where I can't be with him 24/7? I'd be loath to have him sent to boarding like my others purely because of the extra tlc he needs. So that's my main concern right now. Plus I know the guidelines for feeding is 1 egg cup a day of pellets, not two so really long term he needs to be ok on one and not two like now but until we get to the bottom of this, I'm not reducing him in case of relapse.
Click to expand...

Whilst the general recommended amount of pellets may be 1 eggcupful a day there are always going to be cases whereby this is totally inappropriate. The 'recommended amount' is a guideline as opposed to a hard an fast rule. So I would not worry too much about that at the moment.

As dumblepaws has said, Molly Varga is a very well qualified and highly respected Exotics Vet

http://www.cheshirepet.co.uk/?team-member=molly-varga
 
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