Muesli based diets - new research

[Tamsin]

Yes, food manufactures are must more likely to listen to scientific studies than rabbit owners (as awesome as we are). I though it was quite a big step for P@H to stop selling muesli.

Now we just need a hutch study....

 

[Hesperus]

But this isn't about P@H or normal owners reading the study - it is about discovering the exact consequence of feeding certain foods in a controlled environment. P@H just read it and have obviously taken note. Perhaps more manufacturers will, and now that there is evidence, that can be used to persuade companies that make muesli-type rabbit food to improve their product, remove their product, or even simply having the right feeding guidelines and recommending hay would make a big difference. The average owner DOES read the instructions on pet food, so if every bag stated how important hay was that would be a huge leap forward in rabbit welfare.

Surely, if it furthers our understanding of the animal, the study is worth doing. There may or may not have been some problems with the methodology, we'll have to wait for the actual study to come out before we know, but at the very least the results give evidence that a muesli only diet is bad for the health and I believe that this is really important as it should help influence manufacturers. It also indicates that a muesli and hay diet contains a higher risk of health problems than a pellet and hay diet, which seems to be something that has not been considered much before.

I'm sorry I couldn't disagree more, normal owners can have the scientific knowledge and understanding to read the reports and make informed decisions based on their animal's health needs. Furthermore, why should entire ranges of food be withdrawn because of ONE STUDY based on 32 rabbits, so 8 rabbits per condition. I'm holding back here, but I have numerous concerns about the way that this study was designed, statistically speaking, as I can see from earlier up in the thread have other people. My point is not that I disagree with the aims of a study into finding out whether or not muesli food is worse for rabbits, but the way in which this particular study was done. If I were a pet food manufacturer I'd take one look at this study and dismiss it as biased, because it was sponsored by my rival, and see straight away that there were a few flaws in its design that as a consequence made its results questionable.

I will not take the withdrawal of food ranges or feeding instructions on the side of packaging on blind faith- I like to question the decisions behind them. And if those decisions have been made on scientific studies such as these then I would be very concerned about the welfare of my pet.

I would love to hear the RWAF's response to all our concerns.

 

[halfpenny]

I'm sorry I couldn't disagree more, normal owners can have the scientific knowledge and understanding to read the reports and make informed decisions based on their animal's health needs. Furthermore, why should entire ranges of food be withdrawn because of ONE STUDY based on 32 rabbits, so 8 rabbits per condition. I'm holding back here, but I have numerous concerns about the way that this study was designed, statistically speaking, as I can see from earlier up in the thread have other people. My point is not that I disagree with the aims of a study into finding out whether or not muesli food is worse for rabbits, but the way in which this particular study was done. If I were a pet food manufacturer I'd take one look at this study and dismiss it as biased, because it was sponsored by my rival, and see straight away that there were a few flaws in its design that as a consequence made its results questionable.

I will not take the withdrawal of food ranges or feeding instructions on the side of packaging on blind faith- I like to question the decisions behind them. And if those decisions have been made on scientific studies such as these then I would be very concerned about the welfare of my pet.

I would love to hear the RWAF's response to all our concerns.

:thumb:

Totally off topic, but I hope that p@h is also going to consider all the other mueslis on their shelves if this is based on welfare issues- eg. guinea pig and rat.
I also hope they will look at all dog food sold and especially dry cat food and cat food which has a very low meat content and high carbohydrate content.

 

[BattleKat]

I agree that the sample wasn't really large enough, and also that a lot more details would need to be available for us to see the validity of the study. As it's burgess, a pellet manufacturer, I'm sure they have set out to prove a point and as such probably chose the worst muesli on the market. That also explains why they've done a muesli only but no pellet only.
Secondly, the rabbits fed muesli were given 60g, whereas those on pellets were given 50g. Not exactly balanced, is it? :?
As well as being larger, I think the study would have to go on for much longer to see any long term changes and how they affect the rabbits.

 

[halfpenny]

Am I wrong in thinking that the study suggests that the muesli rabbits selectively fed. I would be interested to know if the dominant rabbit of the pair selected from the muesli first, if so I find it bizarre if both members of the pair showed the same dental issues when they have eaten different amounts and components of the mix or if the submissive member been stopped from eating the bulk of the muesli altogether. I have no idea how they could even measure this if the rabbits were paired.

 

[Tamsin]

I think the RWA are waiting for the studies to be published too, they are just giving us a heads up

 

[halfpenny]

I think the RWA are waiting for the studies to be published too, they are just giving us a heads up

Well, actually they state they hope all retailers will remove muesli from their shelves, which is quite a statement based on this study!

 

[Hesperus]

I think the RWA are waiting for the studies to be published too, they are just giving us a heads up

And they've posted it on Facebook too, a very public forum to be putting it if they're just waiting for results.

 

[jwr]

well it is all common sense is'nt it , if Pets at home needed a study to tell them that no wonder half the animals they sell have problems so when they do a study on hutches putting 8 rabbits in their own 6ft hutch with a 8ft run another 8 in 5ft hutches with no run and another 8 in 4ft single floor hutches and see which goes stir crazy first and then perhaps they will stop selling their little tiny rubbish hutches...

maybe in the hutch study they could stuff the ones in the 4ft hutches on muesli every day and see what happens

 

[nessar]

Well, actually they state they hope all retailers will remove muesli from their shelves, which is quite a statement based on this study!

I don't mean to be pedantic, but they said 'other retailers' not 'all other retailers', so they may not be making quite the statement you imagine.

I really don't know why people are getting all flustered about this, vets have been telling us for years that pellets are better than muesli, it's hardly new information to get up in arms about, just evidence of what we already know.

 

[halfpenny]

I don't mean to be pedantic, but they said 'other retailers' not 'all other retailers'.

I really don't know why people are getting all flustered about this, vets have been telling us for years that pellets are better than muesli, it's hardly new information to get up in arms about, just evidence of what we already know.

I disagree, you may have guessed, I feed rabbit royale and do not like people being bullied and demonised because they use muesli. I have strong opinions on cat food for example but I do not say people who feed whiskas are abusing their pets or it should be banned.
Many vets also recommend giving dry food to cats which is actually thought to cause more problems than it solves!
This 'research project' has done nothing to make me think the food i give my rabbits is any worse than burgess excel ( in fact many of mine have produced excess ceacotrophs on it).
I personally feel rather than giving P@H a pat on the back for taking muesli off their shelves, they should be asked to stop selling animals and train up staff!

 

[jwr]

I don't mean to be pedantic, but they said 'other retailers' not 'all other retailers', so they may not be making quite the statement you imagine.

I really don't know why people are getting all flustered about this, vets have been telling us for years that pellets are better than muesli, it's hardly new information to get up in arms about, just evidence of what we already know.

yes they have, problem is too many people won't take advice unless its proved these days but even with the study proof people STILL don't believe it RU has proved that!

basically we should be feeding our rabbits just hay and letting them graze on grass then there would be no dental problems ....dealt wild rabbits have dental problems...

 

[happybun]

Now we just need a hutch study....

:thumb:

and one about the harmful effects of petshops selling animals.

 

[jwr]

:thumb:

and one about the harmful effects of petshops selling animals.

and one about the idiots who buy them

 

[nessar]

I disagree, you may have guessed, I feed rabbit royale and do not like people being bullied and demonised because they use muesli. I have strong opinions on cat food for example but I do not say people who feed whiskas are abusing their pets or it should be banned.
Many vets also recommend giving dry food to cats which is actually thought to cause more problems than it solves!
This 'research project' has done nothing to make me think the food i give my rabbits is any worse than burgess excel ( in fact many of mine have produced excess ceacotrophs on it).
I personally feel rather than giving P@H a pat on the back for taking muesli off their shelves, they should be asked to stop selling animals and train up staff!

Don't you think you are taking this a bit personally because it has hit a nerve, because you use muesli? I haven't seen anyone on this thread, nor RWAF, nor the study, say that feeding muesli is abusing the rabbits and I haven't seen anyone be bullied or demonised.

The fact is that we all make a choice about what food to feed our pets and there are likely to be various factors in our choice. However, the study is simply pointing out some of the flaws of feeding muesli. Some foods are better than others. Nor is the study promoting Burgess products, it is just sponsored by Burgess, and let's face it, who else but a pet food company is going to fund a pet food study? It must cost a great deal.

P@H selling animals is off topic, the subject at hand is muesli vs pellets. If a study was done on the welfare of petshop rabbits, then they may review their policy in that area, but the study that has been done is a diet study so they are reviewing their diet policy. Baby steps in the right direction is still progress.

'Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow.' - Plato

 

[halfpenny]

Don't you think you are taking this a bit personally because it has hit a nerve, because you use muesli? I haven't seen anyone on this thread, nor RWAF, nor the study, say that feeding muesli is abusing the rabbits and I haven't seen anyone be bullied or demonised.

The fact is that we all make a choice about what food to feed our pets and there are likely to be various factors in our choice. However, the study is simply pointing out some of the flaws of feeding muesli. Some foods are better than others. Nor is the study promoting Burgess products, it is just sponsored by Burgess, and let's face it, who else but a pet food company is going to fund a pet food study? It must cost a great deal.

P@H selling animals is off topic, the subject at hand is muesli vs pellets. If a study was done on the welfare of petshop rabbits, then they may review their policy in that area, but the study that has been done is a diet study so they are reviewing their diet policy. Baby steps in the right direction is still progress.

'Never discourage anyone...who continually makes progress, no matter how slow.' - Plato

Yes, I may well be taking it seriously, because time and time again there are comments on here about people feeding muesli and the owners being uncaring, ignorant or stupid, and it's even worse on places like Facebook. This apparently incomplete study will just cause those people who make these statement even more opinionated without considering the validity of this study. The fact is, I will continue to feed rabbit royale as long as it is available because it suits my rabbits, however it upsets me that every newbie who comes on here will be even more strongly 'bullied' into changing from muesli to pellets, without questioning the type of muesli being used
and with examples being taken from this study.
If muesli is actually removed from retailers or banned my choices are quickly removed aren't they?

 

[Hesperus]

The problem I have with it is simply this: you can't say you have scientific evidence for anything unless your project has been done rigorously. It has to be done in a certain way and has to be reported in a certain way. All I'm asking is when the scientific literature will be available so that we can see that this is the case, as I have doubts about this project due to the sample size of 32 rabbits and other things (lack of pellet only group etc). As such, I'm not sure about using the terms evidence etc so strongly.

As such, I really look forward to the results being published in a peer-reviewed journal.

(And I'm a pellet-feeder, so no raw-nerves)

 

[nessar]

I agree there should have been a pellet-only group. However, how about if we ignore the existence of the muesli only group for a moment? The study still indicates (okay doesn't prove but still indicates) that health problems are more likely to occur in a rabbit eating 60g of muesli with unlimited hay than a rabbit eating 50g pellets and unlimited hay.

I find the dental problems in particular very interesting and I wonder what the reason is, perhaps as Thumps suggested dental health is linked to the gut health, and therefore a diet lower in fibre (as mueslis are not above 14%) has a negative impact on the digestion (as indicated by the study as well) and then this has a knock-on effect on the teeth - that is just a speculation of course, but there must be a reason for the muesli rabbits to have teeth in worse shape. Or perhaps that extra 10g made all the difference or the shape of the pellets help dental wear. I imagine we'll find out the reason for the difference in portion size, albeit only about a tablespoon, when the study comes out.

Sample size has been a problem in most rabbit studies I have read, I wonder if it is for a reason other than cost, or simply cost :?

 

[Hesperus]

I agree there should have been a pellet-only group. However, how about if we ignore the existence of the muesli only group for a moment? The study still indicates (okay doesn't prove but still indicates) that health problems are more likely to occur in a rabbit eating 60g of muesli with unlimited hay than a rabbit eating 50g pellets and unlimited hay.

I find the dental problems in particular very interesting and I wonder what the reason is, perhaps as Thumps suggested dental health is linked to the gut health, and therefore a diet lower in fibre (as mueslis are not above 14%) has a negative impact on the digestion (as indicated by the study as well) and then this has a knock-on effect on the teeth - that is just a speculation of course, but there must be a reason for the muesli rabbits to have teeth in worse shape. Or perhaps that extra 10g made all the difference or the shape of the pellets help dental wear. I imagine we'll find out the reason for the difference in portion size, albeit only about a tablespoon, when the study comes out.

Sample size has been a problem in most rabbit studies I have read, I wonder if it is for a reason other than cost, or simply cost :?

Yeah, you raise some really interesting questions, especially about that 10g. I'm guessing there must be a reason they chose 60g of one and 50g of the other in calorie or some other equivalent content, although that 10g does seem to cause other questions to become an issue.

I'm again guessing, but I suspect that rabbit research isn't as high priority sadly as cat and dog, so there isn't the money for big studies. I don't think at the end of the day pellet v. muesli food is the issue here, it's that old-fashioned view of the bunny as an animal you can stick in a hutch in the bottom of a garden and chuck a handful of food at once a day... whilst that's in people's heads what does it matter what we say about their food really?

 

[halfpenny]

Yeah, you raise some really interesting questions, especially about that 10g. I'm guessing there must be a reason they chose 60g of one and 50g of the other in calorie or some other equivalent content, although that 10g does seem to cause other questions to become an issue.

I'm again guessing, but I suspect that rabbit research isn't as high priority sadly as cat and dog, so there isn't the money for big studies. I don't think at the end of the day pellet v. muesli food is the issue here, it's that old-fashioned view of the bunny as an animal you can stick in a hutch in the bottom of a garden and chuck a handful of food at once a day... whilst that's in people's heads what does it matter what we say about their food really?

Actually, I'm surprised such a small number was used, I get what your saying about rabbit being seen as less important, but at the same time they are cheaper and more easily kept for studies compared to dogs and cats.