Death penalty

[Charys]

The victims and their families are soon forgotten and we focus on the poor criminals and feel sorry for them because they were abused or whatever and that made them do it

I said I wasn't going to comment, but decided to after all...:lol:

I don't think you can presume that just because people don't agree with 'state killing' that they feel sympathy for the perpetrators of vile crimes. I don't 'feel sorry' for any 'poor criminals', and I feel deeply for those who have been victims; but I think that morally, making the choice to kill another is wrong. You can't on one hand say 'killing is wrong' and then sanction killing. I'm not that forgiving though, and not quite the soft liberal that I might have appeared on the other thread - I would want that person to suffer the correct emotions, knowing about their crime each and everyday and the misery they had caused. I would want them to feel remorse and know they had lost their liberty because of the pain they had caused and the awful things they had done. I'd want them to work in 'some way' to make amends to society for their actions - hard labour would do for starters. I know for many people, no amount of 'making amends' could ever be enough for their loses, but I just can't morally cope with the 'you took a life, therefore you have your life taken'.

An analogy is that - I told my daughter all through her young childhood that people hitting other people was wrong, so therefore I did not smack her, as by using physical violence against someone myself, I was instantly being hypocritical.

 

[LoopyLouie]

At the moment that is true although I think the number of people calling for a tougher approach is increasing now, in any case, if the numbers of people getting life sentences carries on increasing it may have to change - they have to go somewhere to play on their playstations and study for their degrees etc and sooner or later space will run out, never mind they can always close a few schools or hospitals to pay for new prisons to house them all, afterall we wouldn't want to execute them when we can look after them and feed & clothe them indefinately at tax payers expense, it's not like any of us would mind paying more tax towards keeping them and none of us would object if one was released and then killed us or one of our family because 'they got it wrong' and they weren't cured at all, it's not like there are far more worthwhile ways to use those rescources is it:roll:

Now I find this laughable too :roll: There are other ways of improving things in the justice system rather than reintrodcuing the death penalty - harsher conditions, longer sentences. For some reason most people who agree with the death penalty think those who are against are all a bunch of 'do gooders' who think criminals should get an easy ride - not the case. I despair at some of the 'luxuries' some prisoners seem to get compared to the countries poor and aged, things need to change but this is not the answer.

The death penalty will not be reintroduced here in our lifetime, not without a radical facist group like the BNP gaining a huge majority, which I hope will never happen.

 

[donnamt]

Maybe they should devise a system where by all the people who want to keep these depraved individuals alive even when they are never going to be released should pay for them then, it would be fairer to give society an option - I would rather my money went to the victims families than keep these 'incurable monsters' languishing in prison for the rest of their lives.

oooh i like that idea i know where i will send my money and it wont be to feed that who let her little girl die in the most awful horrifying way... long slow starvation

 

[Mart]

I think there is a danger that the argument for the death penalty is being polarised through pretty black and white arguments.

It is being presented in some arguments here as either:

A) lock them up in a cushy prison cell with play-stations and soft talk them in an attempt to rehabilitate them, and if that fails, well just give them tvs etc. and let them live their life out in luxury or

B) String 'em up.


Of course there are arguments over what prison should be etc. but that is a different debate from bringing back the death penalty.

I cannot see the point of the death penalty, it doesn't work as a deterrent, it doesn't help the victim of the crime in any direct way, and it creates all sorts of ambiguities in the value of human life to society.

The only point in it is as retribution - and ultimately, what does that accomplish ?

Martin

 

[SarahP]

Maybe they should devise a system where by all the people who want to keep these depraved individuals alive even when they are never going to be released should pay for them then, it would be fairer to give society an option - I would rather my money went to the victims families than keep these 'incurable monsters' languishing in prison for the rest of their lives.

The death penalty is unlikely to be cheaper (check out the USA). Suggesting it is a financial issue is barking up the wrong tree in my view.

Oh dear... I wasn't going to comment either!

 

[VickiP]

I said I wasn't going to comment, but decided to after all...:lol:

I don't think you can presume that just because people don't agree with 'state killing' that they feel sympathy for the perpetrators of vile crimes. I don't 'feel sorry' for any 'poor criminals', and I feel deeply for those who have been victims; but I think that morally, making the choice to kill another is wrong. You can't on one hand say 'killing is wrong' and then sanction killing. I'm not that forgiving though, and not quite the soft liberal that I might have appeared on the other thread - I would want that person to suffer the correct emotions, knowing about their crime each and everyday and the misery they had caused. I would want them to feel remorse and know they had lost their liberty because of the pain they had caused and the awful things they had done. I'd want them to work in 'some way' to make amends to society for their actions. I know for many people, no amount of 'making amends' could ever be enough for their loses, but I just can't morally cope with the 'you took a life, therefore you have your life taken'.

An analogy is that - I told my daughter all through her young childhood that people hitting other people was wrong, so therefore I did not smack her, as by using physical violence against someone myself, I was instantly being hypocritical.

Execution is sometimes the safest option to protect others, the Moors murderers were never ever going to be released - they may aswell have been executed, they still wouldn't tell the families where they had buried a couple of those children. You are making an assumption that people can always be rehabilitated, that they can feel remorse - I think sometimes they are so deranged and disturbed that it is impossible to do that with any certainty they won't harm someone ever again. It's about protecting the society from harm not exacting revenge - exacting revenge would be to execute in an inhumane manner like they murdered their victims.

 

[LoopyLouie]

I said I wasn't going to comment, but decided to after all...:lol:

I don't think you can presume that just because people don't agree with 'state killing' that they feel sympathy for the perpetrators of vile crimes. I don't 'feel sorry' for any 'poor criminals', and I feel deeply for those who have been victims; but I think that morally, making the choice to kill another is wrong. You can't on one hand say 'killing is wrong' and then sanction killing. I'm not that forgiving though, and not quite the soft liberal that I might have appeared on the other thread - I would want that person to suffer the correct emotions, knowing about their crime each and everyday and the misery they had caused. I would want them to feel remorse and know they had lost their liberty because of the pain they had caused and the awful things they had done. I'd want them to work in 'some way' to make amends to society for their actions - hard labour would do for starters. I know for many people, no amount of 'making amends' could ever be enough for their loses, but I just can't morally cope with the 'you took a life, therefore you have your life taken'.

An analogy is that - I told my daughter all through her young childhood that people hitting other people was wrong, so therefore I did not smack her, as by using physical violence against someone myself, I was instantly being hypocritical.

You put this so much better than I did, but this is also what I was getting at. Some people seem to think Against death penalty = for the criminals, not the case!

 

[SarahP]

I agree that if it was my family then it's more than possible I'd want to kill them too, but surely that just proves that the process is based on revenge, not on any impartial moral standard.

Exactly - that's why we have a proper justice system, not family vengeance from the dark ages.

 

[VickiP]

The death penalty is unlikely to be cheaper (check out the USA). Suggesting it is a financial issue is barking up the wrong tree in my view.

Oh dear... I wasn't going to comment either!

:lol: Neither was I :lol: I think it has to be cheaper than keeping them alive for 30-40 years - they even get paid benefits in prison, they get healthcare, food, clothes, education, entertainment - they live better than some homeless people in our society who have done nothing wrong and are a danger to no-one, sorry but, in the cases I am referring to which is the ones who are so so deranged and what they do is so beyond understanding - get rid of them sooner rather than later, they aren't worth the time, effort, money or risk. I accept it may not work as a deterrent but, neither does locking them up and throwing away the key. I would rather administer the injection or pull the trigger than spend time trying to cure the incurable. Would much rather we helped the decent folk in society and just eliminate the evil. Wouldn't shed any tears for them at all and would feel some sort of justice for the families, who wants to hear that their child was raped and murdered in a really brutal way, dismembered and buried in several different places and then go to bed at night knowing the perpetrator is sitting in prison having steak and chips and watching TV ! Sorry but, I am sure it would bring some comfort to the victims families that these people aren't afforded the luxury of life after taking someone innocent's life away from them because they couldn't defend themselves.

 

[louise and Gus]

One of the major problems with the death penalty is who decides what is bad enough to be killed for....and how do you come to that decision? As others have said I do think the justice system needs to be tougher but I am glad to live in the UK where they will never bring back the death sentence, when you look at the problems America has I don't see how it would make society and better.

Didn't a wise man once say "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

 

[VickiP]

oooh i like that idea i know where i will send my money and it wont be to feed that who let her little girl die in the most awful horrifying way... long slow starvation

Yes exactly !! I agree - I wouldn't suggest using the methods from the dark ages - she can choose from modern humane techniques like lethal injection, firing squad, hanging - still a much quicker less painful end than they afford the victims of their brutality.

 

[VickiP]

Now I find this laughable too :roll: There are other ways of improving things in the justice system rather than reintrodcuing the death penalty - harsher conditions, longer sentences. For some reason most people who agree with the death penalty think those who are against are all a bunch of 'do gooders' who think criminals should get an easy ride - not the case. I despair at some of the 'luxuries' some prisoners seem to get compared to the countries poor and aged, things need to change but this is not the answer.

The death penalty will not be reintroduced here in our lifetime, not without a radical facist group like the BNP gaining a huge majority, which I hope will never happen.

I wouldn't bank on that actually, the majority of the victims of this sort of crime the henious ones that involve child murder for example would welcome it and they are not facists or members of the BNP as I am not. I have no problem with anyone who does not harm other people unlawfully. Execution is lawful killing of people who have harmed other innocent people.

 

[Charys]

You are making an assumption that people can always be rehabilitated, that they can feel remorse - I think sometimes they are so deranged and disturbed that it is impossible to do that with any certainty they won't harm someone ever again. It's about protecting the society from harm not exacting revenge - exacting revenge would be to execute in an inhumane manner like they murdered their victims.

NOoo, I don't think everyone can be rehabilitated. Some people should indeed be locked up 'for good'. So, once they are locked up for good, and all the psychologists/psychiatrists say 'nope, we can't get anywhere with this person/they can not be cured' then they stay where they are. They are therefore no threat to society, as they've been removed from it.

I was a bit sweeping with my 'remorse' statement, I agree, I would want every effort made for all the length of time that the person is in prison for them to understand what they have done, the pain they have caused etc. I think you are right, not everyone will feel remorse.

 

[takethatmad]

You'd have probably said the same about Stefan Kisko if you were Lesley Molseed's mother. And that's where the death penalty and vigilanteism all falls down.

Seeing as there's video evidence of these evil b@stards leading this boy to his death, I think there's absolutely no doubt of their guilt.

 

[LoopyLouie]

[/B]

I wouldn't bank on that actually, the majority of the victims of this sort of crime the henious ones that involve child murder for example would welcome it and they are not facists or members of the BNP as I am not. I have no problem with anyone who does not harm other people unlawfully. Execution is lawful killing of people who have harmed other innocent people.

Not in this country and not in my opinion. I have faith in the people of this country and believe that the death penalty will never be reintroduced under a fair, moderate government.

 

[VickiP]

Not in this country and not in my opinion. I have faith in the people of this country and believe that the death penalty will never be reintroduced under a fair, moderate government.

I think in time there may be no alternative, perhaps you would like to have a secure unit built near your house where they can go prior to release??

 

[Charys]

In my opinion the death penalty won't ever be back in this country. I feel sure of that. The governments we have, and will have, have no debate about the death penalty on the agenda. Besides; it makes no diffence to crime figures, statistics from other countries show that it is not a deterrent. If you made a list of 'pros' and 'cons' relating to state killing, there are far too many 'cons' ,that have been given on this thread.

 

[Char-x]

I put not in favour due to people being prooved innocent. But I think it could be used if there was an incredible amount of evidence stacked against them (for example those murderers who kidnapped girls and killed them - bodies were found under the patio and one victim escaped) and its something serious e.g. multiple or very cold blooded murders, pedophiles, child rapists.

I dont think rapists should be killed...I know i wont be popular for this but some women do say they are raped when they werent (I know 2 girls that have done this) when they regret it the next day etc...so too risky IMO .

 

[SarahP]

I'm certain the death penalty won't be back in my lifetime too. What would be the reasons put forward for it?

- Finances? No - they'd look to the expensive US system and think again there.
- A deterrent? Where is the evidence that it's a deterrent - again, they'd look to the US crime figures - all it stops is reoffending, not the severity of crimes. Once you've killed someone and know it's the death penalty for you, you might as well take a few others out too, eh?
- That the public is baying for justice like a vigilante mob?

 

[louise and Gus]

In my opinion the death penalty won't ever be back in this country. I feel sure of that. The governments we have, and will have, have no debate about the death penalty on the agenda. Besides; it makes no diffence to crime figures, statistics from other countries show that it is not a deterrent. If you made a list of 'pros' and 'cons' relating to state killing, there are far too many 'cons' ,that have been given on this thread.

I agree!