Specialist talk on gut statis and bunny issues

[Pets mum]

Thank you for sharing this info, especially about pain relief. I feel awful because my girl was spayed before I joined RU, so I was a complete novice, and trusted the vet entirely. She was given pain relief after the op, but wasn't given anything to take at home, she must have been in so much pain, poor baby. I know diffently now, and would insist every time, fortunately she made a quick recovery and didn't go into stasis. We live and learn on here don't we ?

 

[cpayne]

Thank you for sharing this info, especially about pain relief. I feel awful because my girl was spayed before I joined RU, so I was a complete novice, and trusted the vet entirely. She was given pain relief after the op, but wasn't given anything to take at home, she must have been in so much pain, poor baby. I know diffently now, and would insist every time, fortunately she made a quick recovery and didn't go into stasis. We live and learn on here don't we ?

We certainly do. Don't be hard on yourself, I was just lucky they gave me lots with Doughnut otherwise I would have just taken what they gave and assumed it was right. Hopefully vets are all being taught that they need pain relief after a spay!

 

[Shrinkie]

Waw. Some very interesting points and information I didn't realise, definitely invaluable information thank you for sharing

 

[Hugo's There]

I know that's why I'm trying to emphasise it as Mark did. I think vets are still subscribing under the old measures of 0.2ml which probably doesn't even touch the pain! Doughnut is only little at 1.2kg and I'm sure most rabbits are bigger than her so hopefully people will realise that if she can have 0.5ml three times a day they can give their rabbit more if they are on a really low dose. He also said to give metacam straight away if you notice they are not eating and going into gut statis. The videos were really interesting, it's nice to see what happens to your rabbit once it's passed to the experts.

But how do you know if they are going into the start of stasis or whether its something completely different starting inc kidney problems? I would have thought it was only OK to give metacam if you know your rabbit has a history of stasis and that metacam will nip it in the bud so to speak?

 

[Hugo's There]

I know that's why I'm trying to emphasise it as Mark did. I think vets are still subscribing under the old measures of 0.2ml which probably doesn't even touch the pain! Doughnut is only little at 1.2kg and I'm sure most rabbits are bigger than her so hopefully people will realise that if she can have 0.5ml three times a day they can give their rabbit more if they are on a really low dose. He also said to give metacam straight away if you notice they are not eating and going into gut statis. The videos were really interesting, it's nice to see what happens to your rabbit once it's passed to the experts.

But how do you know if they are going into the start of stasis or whether its something completely different starting inc kidney problems? I would have thought it was only OK to give metacam if you know your rabbit has a history of stasis and that metacam will nip it in the bud so to speak?

 

[cpayne]

But how do you know if they are going into the start of stasis or whether its something completely different starting inc kidney problems? I would have thought it was only OK to give metacam if you know your rabbit has a history of stasis and that metacam will nip it in the bud so to speak?

You don't but Mark was saying if you have metacam in the house and the rabbit isn't eating, it's poops are getting really small and few to give it pain relief and syringe feed and it may save a trip to see him. Obviously if the rabbit doesn't perk up then to take it to a vet. He just meant you can maybe help it out of the onset of it, if it is statis. He also said that in his opinion rabbits should be hospitalised as they need that intensive care treatment if they get statis and can be linked up to IVs, given injections of metaclop, which is better than giving orally etc. I know I've only ever got Doughnut back when she's back to normal and never been sent home to syringe feed her myself.

 

[Fellie]

I did specifically ask Mark about giving Metacam if say I was to wake up to a bun in stasis and he said yes - if I've got it, give it. And critical care - or whatever food you can tempt the bun with.

I have often felt so helpless seeing a bun in pain and not being able to do anything until I can get it to the vets - and I will in future give pain relief. And take the bun to the vets for further investigation to make sure there was no underlying disease/issues causing pain etc.

The 3 main causes of stasis are PAIN, STRESS, DISEASE.

As Mark said - and it is logical - if you can treat the pain - the stress levels drop - and then you can tackle the disease once you have those under control. Obviously there are other things apart from disease that can cause stress - a change in weather for example, or getting a massive fright. But again - the main thing is to control the pain - and allow the animals to recover from the stress without pain adding to it.

 

[bunny momma]

That is good information.
I live in NY state in USA and my vet told me years ago that the most important thing in treating stasis is pain relief and hand feeding. However, in recent years, he is telling me that higher doses of Medicam, although fine for a few days, can damage the kidneys if given for longer periods. We do 2X per day Medicam even though some studies show it lasts closer to 24 hours.
Mark is right that some vets in the USA do not prescribe Metrocloprimide. My own vet tells me there is a question if Metrocloprimide actually helps in rabbits. In my own experience I believe the injectible form does help, so my vet gives me a script to get filled at my pharmacy.
Funny storry, once when I had an injectible Metrocloprimide script filled at my pharmacy I forget to get a script for syringes (or get them at the vets). The pharmacy was able to give me 10 syringes without a script but I had to sign paperwork and was given handouts on bloodborn pathogens, safe sex, etc. The pharmacy did not seem to care it was prescribed for my bunny who had a hard time reading the handouts.

 

[MightyMax]

As Mark said - and it is logical - if you can treat the pain - the stress levels drop - and then you can tackle the disease once you have those under control. Obviously there are other things apart from disease that can cause stress - a change in weather for example, or getting a massive fright. But again - the main thing is to control the pain - and allow the animals to recover from the stress without pain adding to it.

Really good advice!

I also start with Infacol as well as the Metacam ... It very often resolves things before I get to the vet's surgery

 

[cpayne]

Really good advice!

I also start with Infacol as well as the Metacam ... It very often resolves things before I get to the vet's surgery

Yes he gives infracol or something similar too. Thanks Fellie, you explained it far better than me!

 

[cpayne]

That is good information.
I live in NY state in USA and my vet told me years ago that the most important thing in treating stasis is pain relief and hand feeding. However, in recent years, he is telling me that higher doses of Medicam, although fine for a few days, can damage the kidneys if given for longer periods. We do 2X per day Medicam even though some studies show it lasts closer to 24 hours.
Mark is right that some vets in the USA do not prescribe Metrocloprimide. My own vet tells me there is a question if Metrocloprimide actually helps in rabbits. In my own experience I believe the injectible form does help, so my vet gives me a script to get filled at my pharmacy.
Funny storry, once when I had an injectible Metrocloprimide script filled at my pharmacy I forget to get a script for syringes (or get them at the vets). The pharmacy was able to give me 10 syringes without a script but I had to sign paperwork and was given handouts on bloodborn pathogens, safe sex, etc. The pharmacy did not seem to care it was prescribed for my bunny who had a hard time reading the handouts.

Metacam is also recommended here to be given twice a day due the the rabbits metabolic rate.

Mark said he thought the metrocloprimide injected helped and that's one of the reasons why he thinks rabbits should be hospitalised as they can do that.

It's interesting to see how different countries treat it.

Mark hasn't said about the kidneys but I know in my experience Doughnut has been on high dosage for a few days to a week and then we start dropping it down. I hope no one is thinking he advocates high dosages all the time as that's not the case!

 

[Hugo's There]

I always give infacol but not metacam if I suspect stasis. If no improvement in an hour then we go to the vet. I guess we are lucky that our vet is at the end of our road so we can have a rabbit on the consult table within 10-15 minutes of the initial phone call

 

[HappyHop]

To put what cpayne and feelie have already said into context....
Mark was not saying don't go to the vets and treat at home he was saying that stasis can be caused by several factors and sometimes by giving metacam and syringe feeidng you may prevent a vet visit. He was not saying don't go and see him. If they pick up and start eating after this you can say to yourself ok this may have been due to such and such (ie the builders are in and its causing the rabbit to stress. Also if its late at night and you are not able to get to a vets.
He was also perhaps talking about those owners who know their rabbits extremely well and are confident to spot other signs in conjunction with the stopping eating.
We are only passing on what was said at the talk. if he does another one I might ask if i can record it and then transcribe it

 

[bunny momma]

Metacam is also recommended here to be given twice a day due the the rabbits metabolic rate.

Mark said he thought the metrocloprimide injected helped and that's one of the reasons why he thinks rabbits should be hospitalised as they can do that.

It's interesting to see how different countries treat it.

Mark hasn't said about the kidneys but I know in my experience Doughnut has been on high dosage for a few days to a week and then we start dropping it down. I hope no one is thinking he advocates high dosages all the time as that's not the case!

My vet may be more concerned about kidney issues because I was treating bunnies that were over 10 years old. Even so, he never objected to be giving them a higher dosage for a short term. He tells me narcotic pain relievers will sometimes slow the gut and that is not good either, so it is better to use a higher dosage of Medicam than a narcotic for most cases of stasis. We are in agreement that giving adequate pain management to get the bunny moving and eating is very important.

I tried the Metrocloprimide pills, and they did not seem to work the same as the injectible (which I was not able to get at the time due to production issues). Thankfully, I can get the injectible again. It is not recommended if a complete obstruction is suspected (not common), so that is why it should not be given arbitrarly. I knew what helped when my bunny had a prior episode of stasis, and before we went to the vet I would start treatment. It is good to have options late at night when the emergency vet is 45 minutes away and you do not want to stress the bunny more (or weather is not good for night driving).

 

[cpayne]

Thats interesting, I've never heard of the pills. Doughnut's on the metroclop syrup, but he said giving the injection is far more effective than giving orally.

I agree, I would much rather Doughnut had a high dosage and knew she was pain free than give her a smaller dose and she seems ok but is hiding the pain. From the study they did on spayed rabbits it just shows how good they are at hiding it. I know doughnut really well and what to look for but I am now under the impression that by the time I notice she is uncomfortable/in pain, she is probably in a lot more pain then I realise. So going in with a high dose and then lowering it makes sense to me and if it gets her eating again then that's great.

 

[HappyHop]

Every bunny is different and mark was talking about a general rule of thumb.
Regarding the metacam as cpayne and fellie said a lot of non rabbit specialist vets are not aware of the parameters that metacam can be given and in general are giving too low a dose. It would be the equivalent of us taking a quarter of a paracetamol instead of two to treat a headache -maybe not those doses but you get the idea

 

[MightyMax]

Thats interesting, I've never heard of the pills. Doughnut's on the metroclop syrup, but he said giving the injection is far more effective than giving orally.

I agree, I would much rather Doughnut had a high dosage and knew she was pain free than give her a smaller dose and she seems ok but is hiding the pain. From the study they did on spayed rabbits it just shows how good they are at hiding it. I know doughnut really well and what to look for but I am now under the impression that by the time I notice she is uncomfortable/in pain, she is probably in a lot more pain then I realise. So going in with a high dose and then lowering it makes sense to me and if it gets her eating again then that's great.

For stasis, a high dose of Metacam is only for a very short period of time. I would think it would cause minimal if any damage unless taken long term.

 

[lenslady]

What a great read, thanks for posting! As someone new to Rabbit ownership this is a goldmine of information. xx

 

[bunny momma]

Thats interesting, I've never heard of the pills. Doughnut's on the metroclop syrup, but he said giving the injection is far more effective than giving orally.

I agree, I would much rather Doughnut had a high dosage and knew she was pain free than give her a smaller dose and she seems ok but is hiding the pain. From the study they did on spayed rabbits it just shows how good they are at hiding it. I know doughnut really well and what to look for but I am now under the impression that by the time I notice she is uncomfortable/in pain, she is probably in a lot more pain then I realise. So going in with a high dose and then lowering it makes sense to me and if it gets her eating again then that's great.

We may be an ocean apart, but we think alike. Thank you so much for sharing Mark's remarks.

 

[cpayne]

What a great read, thanks for posting! As someone new to Rabbit ownership this is a goldmine of information. xx

Thank you. I'm going to see Mark next week as Doughnut had her vaccines 11 months ago so going early as instructed. I'm going to ask him about worming rabbits as I know everyone has different views on whether it's worth it or not. I personally don't bother but may change my mind!