Drooling/Wet chin and chest post dental (spurs)? - U/D Getting better

[MightyMax]

Thank you MightyMax Yes, he's been given metacam to take home but I was told not to give him any today (eh, yesterday.. losing track) as he's already had a dose at the vet. He's been on metacam since the dental and before any trouble showed up, though I've yet to give him a dose myself (not complaining!)
I hope your visit goes well and your little boy recovers soon. Please don't wory about replying, you have more important things to deal with



Thank you Jane Yes, to a degree but not in as much detail as I'd like. The vet seems certain neither are issues, but I'm not. I'm still strongly considering getting a second opinion but will see how Pixel goes.
Of course the ideal would be to be able to talk to the vet who performed it but obviously that's not an option. I must tell her she's not allowed to go away again!


I just had a very long fight to try to get him to take the critical care (he had the ranitidine first, surprisingly with no problem) but he will not take the critical care. He crawls up my shoulder to get away from the syringe
Maybe I could get him to take a little with help but there's no one to help me at the moment.
I did instead try mashing some science selective in warm water (even threw a basil leaf in for flavour as he seems into it at the moment - took it out before putting in the syringe ) and he seemed a lot more agreeable to that. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to like even the large feeding syringe so it was very, very watery and probably not of much benefit. But that was the best I could do.
There are a nicer number of droppings now - small but heading in the right direction. And so far I haven't seen him drop food again. He's not eating huge amounts but he is eating often. He's quite bouncy and normal looking otherwise.
I did just catch what may have briefly been tooth grinding though..

Sorry for any typo's/mistakes. The lack of sleep is catching up now :lol: Didn't sleep at all monday night (worrying), only a couple of hours at best tuesday night and now staying up tonight.
I guess I should be used to it by now :roll:

You are still very much in my thoughts. I know exactly what it's like to be sleep-deprived and then wonder whether you can make a decision ever again, let along how it brings you down emotionally having a sick rabbit. It's hard enough when you know what's going on, and doubly difficult when you don't.

Many hugs for you and your little one xx

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Thank you so much for all your support xx

Pixel was seen this morning and the vet was happy to let him stay home today Got to keep up the feeding schedule for now and the meds (all at different hours of course) but he's home and that's the main thing. He seemed stressed by the visit but was very happy to return home so I think for the moment it's best he stay where he feels safe unless he gets any worse. I'm still keeping seeing another vet open as an option but for the moment I just want him to get a bit more normal eating etc and will decide on that later depending on how he goes. He's been eating again on return home, it seems to be small amounts but frequent and he's bouncing all over the place.
The willow ball is still getting a lot of attention - glad I've got a spare as the way he's going through it he may need it!
It was a different vet today so I asked him to look at his mouth too as I didn't think it could hurt to get a second look from someone else. He too thinks it all looks fine.
I suppose we'll see with time, it could well be they're both right as the drooling and food dropping has stopped now but I'm watching to see how he goes. For now he seems quite happy in himself, as long as I don't approach with a syringe or a carrier :roll:

I apologise if I've rambled a bit. I tend to do that when I've not slept

@ Jane:
I was using pretty warm but not boiling. I guess maybe they'd break up better in boiling water? I'll try that next 'feeding time' - thanks I thought I had some ella's kitchen left but seems I've used it No food processor either I'm afraid - it's packed like almost everything else.
I've got a large feeding syringe like the one shown here: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RcGEl7KVUUA/maxresdefault.jpg but it still didn't seem to like going through it. I mashed it as well as I could after leaving to soften but will try with boiling water at 2pm
That's a good 'hack' to know though so I'll keep it in mind as nothing likes going through the little syringes except liquid!

@ Omi: I wish I did have access to fresh willow I know there are a few around but they must be council owned and I don't know if it's legal to cut anything off of them. There's one near the local library but it's not exactly an isolated location to go forage lol.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to have little-to-no success with anything by syringe! I keep hearing people say how rabbits often like metacam but I've yet to experience it :lol: The only exception was Maple - halfway through her post-spay course she suddenly realised she loved it and she would tug the syringe out my hand each time trying to get more
I am thinking it would be less stressful to stick with mashed pellets. I do also have fibreplex that I could offer, though he also hates that :roll: I think he might actually have liked the pellets with the hint of basil. I wasn't sure if the flavours would mix (and wasn't too keen to find out for myself) but seems maybe they did

Edit: I've just remembered, I've got some 'Bio-Lapis' sachets that I bought a while ago for their emergency kit. I've never used it before so don't know much about it. It says it's a complimentary feed and looks similar to fibreplex ingredients wise? It's made by the same people.
Would it be a good idea to try him with some of that or a bad idea?

 

[Omi]

I'm pleased that Pixel got on well at the vets this morning and that he was able to stay at home. I'm sure that feeling settled at home will also aid his recovery.

I think you've done the right thing by not taking him for a second opinion at this stage, particularly as he seems to be improving albeit slowly.

I've never used BioLapis, but I can't see that it would do any harm. Are you considering adding it to his water?

Possibly get him some more Bramble leaves then, if Willow is difficult. I think I would have some secateurs handy in my bag when I next went past the library, just in case the place was deserted :lol:

I hope he's still improving.

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

I'm pleased that Pixel got on well at the vets this morning and that he was able to stay at home. I'm sure that feeling settled at home will also aid his recovery.

I think you've done the right thing by not taking him for a second opinion at this stage, particularly as he seems to be improving albeit slowly.

I've never used BioLapis, but I can't see that it would do any harm. Are you considering adding it to his water?

Possibly get him some more Bramble leaves then, if Willow is difficult. I think I would have some secateurs handy in my bag when I next went past the library, just in case the place was deserted :lol:

I hope he's still improving.

Well if you hear of someone in the news being arrested for taking willow branches from a library you've got to come bail me out! :lol:
Yes, I gathered some more bramble leaves earlier today and have been gradually offering some, though they're not getting a huge amount of interest at the moment.
I tried mixing a tiny bit of the bio-lapis in with the mashed pellets. It smells very strongly of apple so I was hoping that meant it might make it taste nicer. I can't say he was happy about it but I don't think it was the bio-lapis as much as it was the syringe lol. It smells strong so I only added a very tiny amount.
He's not really drinking at the moment so I didn't see much point adding it to water (probably getting enough with all the syringe feeding and any herbs he's eating)

Update:
Guess who just ate several SS pellets on his own

 

[Omi]

Well if you hear of someone in the news being arrested for taking willow branches from a library you've got to come bail me out! :lol:
Yes, I gathered some more bramble leaves earlier today and have been gradually offering some, though they're not getting a huge amount of interest at the moment.
I tried mixing a tiny bit of the bio-lapis in with the mashed pellets. It smells very strongly of apple so I was hoping that meant it might make it taste nicer. I can't say he was happy about it but I don't think it was the bio-lapis as much as it was the syringe lol. It smells strong so I only added a very tiny amount.
He's not really drinking at the moment so I didn't see much point adding it to water (probably getting enough with all the syringe feeding and any herbs he's eating)

Update:
Guess who just ate several SS pellets on his own

You'd have a wonderful excuse for your crime :lol:

Ah, just noticed your update Good boy Pixel :thumb: You might actually be able to get some sleep tonight.

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

You'd have a wonderful excuse for your crime :lol:

Ah, just noticed your update Good boy Pixel :thumb: You might actually be able to get some sleep tonight.

"But officer, my rabbit's ill and I needed some of this tree to make him better!" - I'm sure that would go down well :lol:
I remember being told once that when one of my parents ducks went missing a police officer asked what my dad was doing (looking for her up and down the road) and he just said "I'm looking for my duck". I imagine it must have sounded odd lol.

Sleep would be nice :lol: It would be even nicer not to have to keep syringe feeding as it really stresses him out. Poor little thing tenses up as soon as you get the syringe near his mouth and hugs into you. I feel so awful. I'd love to not have to keep putting him though that.

 

[Omi]

How's Pixel?

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Sorry for the late reply. Been catching bits of sleep in between medication times
Doing a bit better than yesterday He started eating a bit more hay yesterday evening and that's kept up today. He's not been syringe fed since yesterday afternoon and appears to be holding his own. Still happy and active. Only thing he's not liking now is the medication. Like they all seem to do, he's now reached the point where enough is enough with syringes and now we're really going to fight it.
He's booked for a follow up on Sunday but with a locum as all the other vets are away.
He's not eating normally yet - he's being very choosey about what he has but he's slowly getting there. Droppings aren't normal yet either but again in the right direction.
So in summery not back to normal yet but heading in the right direction, so I'm happy with that for now

 

[Omi]

Improvement is welcome Perfection takes a little longer

Good boy Pixel!

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Very true

 

[MightyMax]

Sorry for the late reply. Been catching bits of sleep in between medication times
Doing a bit better than yesterday He started eating a bit more hay yesterday evening and that's kept up today. He's not been syringe fed since yesterday afternoon and appears to be holding his own. Still happy and active. Only thing he's not liking now is the medication. Like they all seem to do, he's now reached the point where enough is enough with syringes and now we're really going to fight it.
He's booked for a follow up on Sunday but with a locum as all the other vets are away.
He's not eating normally yet - he's being very choosey about what he has but he's slowly getting there. Droppings aren't normal yet either but again in the right direction.
So in summery not back to normal yet but heading in the right direction, so I'm happy with that for now

Eating hay is good!

The two things you were worried about could be fading into the background a bit? I really hope so, as you need your sleep and some positivity around at the moment.

I'm always here to support you. Thank you for your lovely PM ... I am so behind. With answering emails, cards and Christmas ...
But I know you understand

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Sorry for the late reply. Been catching bits of sleep in between medication times
Doing a bit better than yesterday He started eating a bit more hay yesterday evening and that's kept up today. He's not been syringe fed since yesterday afternoon and appears to be holding his own. Still happy and active. Only thing he's not liking now is the medication. Like they all seem to do, he's now reached the point where enough is enough with syringes and now we're really going to fight it.
He's booked for a follow up on Sunday but with a locum as all the other vets are away.
He's not eating normally yet - he's being very choosey about what he has but he's slowly getting there. Droppings aren't normal yet either but again in the right direction.
So in summery not back to normal yet but heading in the right direction, so I'm happy with that for now

It sounds as though he has turned a corner now and I hope that by the time he has his check up he will be 100% better xx

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Thank you all

After having posted that earlier I'm wondering if it was a bit premature. I'm not sure if I'm happy with how he's been today. While he is still eating he's continuing to pick and his output is not as much as I'd like to see.
It's very hard to tell.. He could be the same as yesterday, or he could be slipping back very slightly.
He doesn't seem to be eating a lot and he's refusing a lot of things that I'm offering him. He's mostly having hay in small amounts and fresh herbs, which I assume are easier for him to eat as they're soft. I just gave him a very small amount of critical care with some apple Ellas Kitchen by syringe but he really fought it and I had to give up in the end.
My instincts are still saying something might be wrong with his mouth. I'm going to keep an eye on him overnight/early hours of the morning but unless there's a change we're planning to try to get hold of Gill. I have an awful feeling she won't be there until after the holidays now in which case we may have to rethink but at the moment I feel that could be the thing to do.
I am worried about putting him through a longer journey but can't see an alternative. I think it might be a good idea to repeat the glucose/lactate test too, perhaps?
I don't know. Maybe I'm being paranoid. But my instinct says he's just not right. I really think he should be picking up more than he has by now.

 

[MightyMax]

Thank you all

After having posted that earlier I'm wondering if it was a bit premature. I'm not sure if I'm happy with how he's been today. While he is still eating he's continuing to pick and his output is not as much as I'd like to see.
It's very hard to tell.. He could be the same as yesterday, or he could be slipping back very slightly.
He doesn't seem to be eating a lot and he's refusing a lot of things that I'm offering him. He's mostly having hay in small amounts and fresh herbs, which I assume are easier for him to eat as they're soft. I just gave him a very small amount of critical care with some apple Ellas Kitchen by syringe but he really fought it and I had to give up in the end.
My instincts are still saying something might be wrong with his mouth. I'm going to keep an eye on him overnight/early hours of the morning but unless there's a change we're planning to try to get hold of Gill. I have an awful feeling she won't be there until after the holidays now in which case we may have to rethink but at the moment I feel that could be the thing to do.
I am worried about putting him through a longer journey but can't see an alternative. I think it might be a good idea to repeat the glucose/lactate test too, perhaps?
I don't know. Maybe I'm being paranoid. But my instinct says he's just not right. I really think he should be picking up more than he has by now.

I think your instinct is right, and I would be feeling the same.

The fact that he eats hay is confusing, as rabbits with dental issues (or post dental issues) usually struggle with the side to side grinding. They are often better with the up and down chomping on pellets.

If Gill is there and has an appointment for you, it's meant to be. I've had a lot of difficulty getting 'specialist' vets to see my rabbit because of the holiday season, but I have managed to make it work. It's just very time consuming ....


My rabbits don't like the critical care. I tend to grind up their pellets and whisk them with a bit of water and veg.

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

*Sigh* Well rabbits are rabbits...
So after making that post he's suddenly got really into his food. He's been eating mostly hay but had has some SS pellets off of me (for the first time all day), nibbled a fair bit of a hay cookie that I gave him and having just given him some fresh herbs he's having some of those - particularly the mint which he seems to be really into at the moment.
Either he's heard me mention 'vet' or I don't know what to think anymore.
He did have both the emeprid and the ranitidine at 10pm tonight, and I have noticed before that emeprid really gives them a boost shortly after taking it. I think that could be a part of it.
Crucially he doesn't seem to be struggling with the hay and is going through it at a good speed now.

The fact that he eats hay is confusing, as rabbits with dental issues (or post dental issues) usually struggle with the side to side grinding. They are often better with the up and down chomping on pellets.

Well here's the interesting thing with Pixel... When he had spurs for the first time he went off of everything except hay. That continuted for a long time afterwards and to be honest he never really went back to 'normal' in that he still favours hay and often leaves other things. My vet was confused by it because, as you say, they normally go off of hay.
That's Pixel. Has to be different :roll:

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Well I have come to a conclusion... Pixel really does understand the word 'vet'.
Ever since I discussed it with my Mum last night he's been showing more and more improvement. He finished a handful of fresh herbs (minus the fenugreek which he's decided he doesn't like at the moment :roll, a load of hay and a few more pellets. Also a good amount of dried forage, though he's going mostly for the leaves and leaving the flowers (I'm guessing the leaves are higher in fiber which as Omi said he's probably craving?)
Even his droppings are now getting close to normal. They're not quite there, but the best they've been so far.
He was also quite bouncy and looked like 'normal Pixel'. I saw 'was' because I just gave him his ranitidine and now he's grumpy sulky Pixel :roll:
But yeah... Starting to think he knew I'd decided to take him back to the vet and thought he'd better show some improvement :lol:
Maybe I should threaten it more often?

 

[Omi]

It's difficult to know what to do for the best in situations like this isn't it? I would say that all rabbits are different , e.g. in the way they are affected by vet visits or medication by syringe and also how picky they are when they are not feeling 100%. Your decision about whether to take him for a second opinion is also made more difficult because of the holiday period as I guess most vets will be closed Sunday, Monday and Tuesday and then it will just be OOH.

I think you know Pixel best and will need to decide what would be help most in this situation. Sending lots of hugs. It's horrid when a rabbit worries us so much.

 

[MightyMax]

Well I have come to a conclusion... Pixel really does understand the word 'vet'.
Ever since I discussed it with my Mum last night he's been showing more and more improvement. He finished a handful of fresh herbs (minus the fenugreek which he's decided he doesn't like at the moment :roll, a load of hay and a few more pellets. Also a good amount of dried forage, though he's going mostly for the leaves and leaving the flowers (I'm guessing the leaves are higher in fiber which as Omi said he's probably craving?)
Even his droppings are now getting close to normal. They're not quite there, but the best they've been so far.
He was also quite bouncy and looked like 'normal Pixel'. I saw 'was' because I just gave him his ranitidine and now he's grumpy sulky Pixel :roll:
But yeah... Starting to think he knew I'd decided to take him back to the vet and thought he'd better show some improvement :lol:
Maybe I should threaten it more often?

Ah .. I have stories that illustrate how rabbits know exactly when you are about to get them into the carrier ready for the vet! :lol:

I have no doubt they know. But also, it's a stressor. And the more it happens, the more stress it generates - I believe it's cumulative.

I've had vet visits every two days for the past two weeks, and however much bunny is chilled, I can see the stress mounting up. Behaviour that wouldn't have happened on a single, or a couple of visits becomes commonplace very quickly once the 'remembering' of the situation kicks in.

If that all makes sense!

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Thank you both so much

I've left him alone today because he's been eating so well and seems to finally be doing better. He's been wanting a fuss from me a lot today (and a bit yesterday) which is great as he was running away from me a lot while he was bad. So I think he's feeling a lot better.
He has a checkup tomorrow morning at 10.30 at my normal surgery but with a locum vet so I'll take him to that and go from there. Obviously only emergency vets are going to be open the day after and I think the day after that but my normal vet surgery reopens on wednesday and I imagine Windlesham will around that time too so if it looks like he needs it I'll take him up then. But for the moment I think it's better to let him eat and stay as 'normal' as possible.
I am nervous about the future as he's probably going to need dentals throughout his life and I'm sure he'll need them doing again before too long. I don't know if this bad reaction could be a one-off or if it means it's always going to be extra risky for him?
I think I'm going to ask for an x-ray when he has his next one so we've got something to go on if he has trouble afterwards, rather than have to put him through another sedation seperately. But I'm absolutely terrified of this happening again and I'm dreading him getting spurs again.
Why people felt the need to breed rabbits with squashed faces I'll never know. He may look cute but I'd much rather he had a 'normal' nose for his own health I love his so much and I couldn't bear to lose him.

 

[MightyMax]

Thank you both so much

I've left him alone today because he's been eating so well and seems to finally be doing better. He's been wanting a fuss from me a lot today (and a bit yesterday) which is great as he was running away from me a lot while he was bad. So I think he's feeling a lot better.
He has a checkup tomorrow morning at 10.30 at my normal surgery but with a locum vet so I'll take him to that and go from there. Obviously only emergency vets are going to be open the day after and I think the day after that but my normal vet surgery reopens on wednesday and I imagine Windlesham will around that time too so if it looks like he needs it I'll take him up then. But for the moment I think it's better to let him eat and stay as 'normal' as possible.
I am nervous about the future as he's probably going to need dentals throughout his life and I'm sure he'll need them doing again before too long. I don't know if this bad reaction could be a one-off or if it means it's always going to be extra risky for him?
I think I'm going to ask for an x-ray when he has his next one so we've got something to go on if he has trouble afterwards, rather than have to put him through another sedation seperately. But I'm absolutely terrified of this happening again and I'm dreading him getting spurs again.
Why people felt the need to breed rabbits with squashed faces I'll never know. He may look cute but I'd much rather he had a 'normal' nose for his own health I love his so much and I couldn't bear to lose him.

I can't remember - was it you who asked whether a rabbit has to be sedated for an X-Ray?

Answer is .. usually yes, unless the rabbit is very poorly and not moving.

However, Frances Harcourt Brown used, when she was in practice, a controversial technique called: Immobility response or ‘tonic immobility’
(I think it's as controversial as 'conscious dentals' )

How to induce a relaxed immobility response
In docile pet rabbits, an immobility response can be induced by cradling the rabbit like a baby before slowly and gently placing it on its back. Making a ‘shushing’ noise seems to help. This is not how a predator would behave with them. It is very important that the rabbit is not grabbed or restrained tightly. If the rabbit feels threatened, it is likely to struggle and try to escape. If it is handled gently, the rabbit is likely to remain calm and still before entering a relaxed trance like state. Once it is immobile, the rabbit will remain in the same position, often without restraint, unless it is stimulated by sudden noise or movement. It will recover from the experience with no sign of distress once it is turned over into a normal sitting position. Rabbits can be medicated or even fed in this position, which does not indicate a state of terror. Turning a rabbit on its back is very useful for examination of the hocks, perineum and incisors. Matted or soiled fur can be removed. Ultrasound examination on the abdominal organs can take place. Claws can be clipped and radiographs taken without the need for sedation.