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View Full Version : Any spare vibes? U/D: Back from the vets



Oompa-Loompa
17-11-2011, 11:21 AM
I just spoke to them on the phone and things aren't looking too good for my Boris, they are now talking about tumours and infections that will never go away (can't remember the word for it right now) :cry: I did contact a more rabbit savvy vet though and she still thought it could be pneumonia or a respiratory infection that could be successfully treated (for those of you who don't know, he's breathing fast and coughing) but after 2 rounds of antibiotics I'm starting to have doubts myself :cry: I just feel so scared and desperate, I keep praying for a miracle but nothing happens. I'm constantly torn between despair and hope and it's taking its toll on me, I'm an emotional wreck right now and can't stop crying. He's booked in for an appointment at the vets tomorrow at 1pm and I'm terrified that they'll find something sinister and that there's nothing more that can be done for him :cry: I've never had to have a pet PTS and to have to have it done to my Boris who I love so much...I don't know if I could handle it to be honest :cry:

I know I've been asking for vibes a lot recently but please, if you have any to spare for me and my little boy, we would appreciate them a lot :(

Gemmapookie
17-11-2011, 11:24 AM
Aww Im sorry :cry:

Was it Pasteurella your vet mentioned? If so whilst it cant be cured, it can in alot of cases be managed quite well. Im sure its hard but try and stay positive xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Loads of vibes and nose rubs for Boris xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Oompa-Loompa
17-11-2011, 11:29 AM
No she didn't say anything specific, she just mentioned that there are infections that stay no matter what you do to treat them. She did admit herself that she wasn't rabbit savvy though :? I'll mention Pasteurella to them when we go there tomorrow.

Money is also an issue for me though, because I'm unemployed. If he requires very expensive treatment I don't know if I could afford it :cry: It's horrible but I have to take that into account as well. Last time they wanted to charge about 100 just for an x-ray, which is literally half my savings :(

Gemmapookie
17-11-2011, 11:32 AM
No she didn't say anything specific, she just mentioned that there are infections that stay no matter what you do to treat them. She did admit herself that she wasn't rabbit savvy though :? I'll mention Pasteurella to them when we go there tomorrow.

Money is also an issue for me though, because I'm unemployed. If he requires very expensive treatment I don't know if I could afford it :cry: It's horrible but I have to take that into account as well. Last time they wanted to charge about 100 just for an x-ray, which is literally half my savings :(

Oh no, its such a shame that vets bills are so steep, its just extra worry on top of the stress youre already feeling :(

Im sure someone more knowledgeable will post soon with reference to the Pasteurella and what else could be going on. It might be worth discussing a payment plan with your vet if things like x ays are needed.

Good luck for tommorrow xxx

GrahamL
17-11-2011, 11:40 AM
If it is pasteurella, it could be pasteurella multocida, which is one of the most common amongst rabbits. 'Snuffles' covers a lot of different issues, pasteurella is just one of them. Lots of bunnies get it and then have to live with it and can't be cured, but it is NOT the be all end all of a rabbits life to have snuffles.

My Ginger bunny has pasteurella and will do for the rest of her life. We've thrown A LOT at it, and nothing has worked, so now, we just work on keeping her comfortable. Her other problems often exascerbate her pasteurella.

This post is going to seem cold and blunt, as i'm just going to write out a list of facts and information, but i promise, i do it with Boris in mind, i'm just not too good at the whole emotions thing. There are a lot of questions too, so i'll need your input on those :)

Discharge; is it thick/white or is it thin/watery and clear? Is it from both nostrils, or just one?

What symptoms does Boris have? Please list them all.

Has the vet done a Culture and Sensitivity (C&S) test of any of the discharge from up Boris' nose? Boris will need to of been off anti-biotics for at least 7-10 days before this test is done, or its a complete waste of time and money.

Has Boris had any skull xrays to rule out tooth-root elongation causing the teeth to push up into the nasolacriminal ducts (i always spell this wrong, so apologies) causing infection?

What medication have you tried so far with boris and length of course?

What else has the vet suggested apart from 'infections/tumours' (:shock:)?

I've been through it quite badly for Ginger, been referred to rabbit specialists in devon, so have a fair idea :)

Oompa-Loompa
17-11-2011, 11:55 AM
If it is pasteurella, it could be pasteurella multocida, which is one of the most common amongst rabbits. 'Snuffles' covers a lot of different issues, pasteurella is just one of them. Lots of bunnies get it and then have to live with it and can't be cured, but it is NOT the be all end all of a rabbits life to have snuffles.

My Ginger bunny has pasteurella and will do for the rest of her life. We've thrown A LOT at it, and nothing has worked, so now, we just work on keeping her comfortable. Her other problems often exascerbate her pasteurella.

This post is going to seem cold and blunt, as i'm just going to write out a list of facts and information, but i promise, i do it with Boris in mind, i'm just not too good at the whole emotions thing. There are a lot of questions too, so i'll need your input on those :)

Discharge; is it thick/white or is it thin/watery and clear? Is it from both nostrils, or just one?

What symptoms does Boris have? Please list them all.

Has the vet done a Culture and Sensitivity (C&S) test of any of the discharge from up Boris' nose? Boris will need to of been off anti-biotics for at least 7-10 days before this test is done, or its a complete waste of time and money.

Has Boris had any skull xrays to rule out tooth-root elongation causing the teeth to push up into the nasolacriminal ducts (i always spell this wrong, so apologies) causing infection?

What medication have you tried so far with boris and length of course?

What else has the vet suggested apart from 'infections/tumours' (:shock:)?

I've been through it quite badly for Ginger, been referred to rabbit specialists in devon, so have a fair idea :)

Thanks for trying to help us out :)
To answer your questions:
He has no discharge whatsoever from eyes/nose. This is what I find so odd. He only really has two symptoms, which is coughing (he has little fits that last maybe 20 seconds and then he's ok, I don't know how often he has them but not too often I don't think) and rapid breathing. He's eating fine, drinking fine, being his normal cheeky self and he's breathing through his NOSE.
The vets have not done any x-rays on him, but I brought it up now when I spoke to them and they said if they can't find anything obviously wrong, then that will be the next step.
So far we've tried an antibiotic called Bactrim, which is similar to Baytril I believe although perhaps not quite as strong (they gave it to us without any prescription, so I'm assuming it's not a very strong one at all) The first time he had it for 7 days (twice a day) and then the second time he had it for 10 days. It seemed to help but about 2 weeks after his last dosage he's gone downhill again.
My local vet initially mentioned pneumonia as well as respiratory infection, now they're talking about tumours etc. like I already mentioned, whereas a vet I spoke to who is based in Stockholm still reckons it could be something less serious.

GrahamL
17-11-2011, 12:04 PM
If it was pneumonia, i would think he'd be very very poorly by now and would not be doing any of the things you mention.

Sorry, i mentioned RTI as pasteurella was mentioned, i may be well off the mark.

I think xrays of his lungs may be the best bet, as it'll show up anything nasty, such as masses, etc.

This will sound weird, but do you have a video of him 'coughing' ? It's sometimes difficult to catch but mobile phones are great for this.

I also apologise as i missed the fact that you aren't in the UK, my bad, are the vets in sweden clued up on rabbits do you know? Excuse my ignorance, im not well travelled :oops:

If the issue is an RTI (be it upper or lower), it may be worth them looking at a MUCH stronger abx than Baytril or similar, possibly injectable penicillin or something like azithromycin, which we had great results with, but it just was not to be. I assume they would be available to you over there.

Lots of vibes for Boris!

Angie B
17-11-2011, 12:08 PM
Sending vibes :)

Vita
17-11-2011, 12:13 PM
Good luck Boris!

Oompa-Loompa
17-11-2011, 12:14 PM
Yeah I think so too, I've done a bit of research on pneumonia in rabbits and it seems like such a serious condition, he just doesn't seem poorly enough :? Believe me, I HAVE tried to catch him doing it and record it with my phone but it's almost impossible, he does it at the most random times :shock: He's not making much of a noise when he coughs, but you can tell he's doing it by looking at him :( Also, his breathing isn't noisy at all, just really quick. I'm going to push for an x-ray tomorrow even if it might be expensive, I want to know what's wrong with him and if anything can be done to fix it.

The vets in Sweden are generally not rabbit savvy at all, especially not where I live :? Which is a major concern in itself because I don't know if I can trust them. They may tell me there's nothing to do but have him PTS when in fact, there are plenty of other options. I just don't know. Which is why I'm glad I at least have this forum to ask people for advice, because very often someone will come along who knows a lot more than my local vets :roll:

I did ask about stronger antibiotics but they didn't seem very keen, they kept telling me how dangerous it could be for them and so on. I still think it might help though if it is some sort of infection :?

ETA: Thanks for the vibes!

GrahamL
17-11-2011, 12:16 PM
Yeah I think so too, I've done a bit of research on pneumonia in rabbits and it seems like such a serious condition, he just doesn't seem poorly enough :? Believe me, I HAVE tried to catch him doing it and record it with my phone but it's almost impossible, he does it at the most random times :shock: He's not making much of a noise when he coughs, but you can tell he's doing it by looking at him :( Also, his breathing isn't noisy at all, just really quick. I'm going to push for an x-ray tomorrow even if it might be expensive, I want to know what's wrong with him and if anything can be done to fix it.

The vets in Sweden are generally not rabbit savvy at all, especially not where I live :? Which is a major concern in itself because I don't know if I can trust them. They may tell me there's nothing to do but have him PTS when in fact, there are plenty of other options. I just don't know. Which is why I'm glad I at least have this forum to ask people for advice, because very often someone will come along who knows a lot more than my local vets :roll:

I did ask about stronger antibiotics but they didn't seem very keen, they kept telling me how dangerous it could be for them and so on. I still think it might help though if it is some sort of infection :?

ETA: Thanks for the vibes!

Unfortunately, apart from Baytril there are no other abx (i dont think) that are licensed for use in Rabbits, so you have to think out of the box. It sounds like a complex situation, poor you and Boris :( Yes, they can be dangerous, but withuot them, options are very limited if it is an infection :(

Vita
17-11-2011, 12:34 PM
One of the problems with the stronger antibiotics even here is that a lot of standard dog-and-cat practices don't stock them. For example mine (sneezers) have been on engemycin, which is licensed as a poultry antibiotic, and azithromycin, which is manufactured for humans.

But of course there will be some antibiotics that rabbits can have which your vets may stock. Baytril (enrofloxacin - which is just a veterinary drug) is different from Bactrim (combined sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim - also used in humans) though.

And of course we don't know what, if any, antibiotic may be the right one for Boris.

susie bun
17-11-2011, 12:46 PM
Sending vibes. Sorry you are having such a worrying time. xx

Oompa-Loompa
17-11-2011, 01:29 PM
One of the problems with the stronger antibiotics even here is that a lot of standard dog-and-cat practices don't stock them. For example mine (sneezers) have been on engemycin, which is licensed as a poultry antibiotic, and azithromycin, which is manufactured for humans.

But of course there will be some antibiotics that rabbits can have which your vets may stock. Baytril (enrofloxacin - which is just a veterinary drug) is different from Bactrim (combined sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim - also used in humans) though.

And of course we don't know what, if any, antibiotic may be the right one for Boris.

So is Bactrim supposed to be more effective than Baytril then? Or am I not understanding it right? I think they only had Bactrim..it might be possible for me to get Baytril from the pharmacy with a subscription but if it's not as strong as Bactrim it won't do anything for him anyway :(

Also, if the abx isn't licensed for use in rabbits, are the vets really allowed to subscribe them? When it could potentially be really dangerous to the animal?

I'm starting to lose all hope here :cry:

GrahamL
17-11-2011, 01:32 PM
So is Bactrim supposed to be more effective than Baytril then? Or am I not understanding it right? I think they only had Bactrim..it might be possible for me to get Baytril from the pharmacy with a subscription but if it's not as strong as Bactrim it won't do anything for him anyway :(

Also, if the abx isn't licensed for use in rabbits, are the vets really allowed to subscribe them? When it could potentially be really dangerous to the animal?

I'm starting to lose all hope here :cry:

Don't lose hope. It won't help you or Boris.

Almost all meds aren't licensed for rabbits for one reason. They haven't been tested as safe. That doesn't mean they aren't safe, just that they haven't been confirmed as.

I've signed more 'confirmation forms' at our vet for unlicensed meds than i care to shake a stick at. You have to go with experience and knowledge primarily. Eg, we know Azithromycin isn't licensed, doesn't mean we didn't have Ginger on it for 6 months as it was the best thing since sliced bread to begin with. Same with Penicillin (which can kill a rabbit if ingested orally), so you just have to run those risks and accept them. It's better than doing nothing, right?

Abx strenght isn't everything. YOu have to understand how bacteria work to realise, that certain bacteria doesn't respond to certain abx. It's often a case of trial and error, but a C&S test if thats what is needed is there to help you with that, guiding you if necessary.

Take solice from the fact that you're doing all yuo can

Oompa-Loompa
17-11-2011, 01:43 PM
But a C&S test would be hard wouldn't it seeing as he doesn't have any discharge to take samples from..? Maybe a blood sample could be helpful (not the same thing I know but still) ?

If it is an infection I'm sure there MUST be some abx out there that WILL make him better, I'm just worried that my vet will refuse to let me try them out if there are risks involved :? It would be such a shame to have to put him to sleep when there were still options that we hadn't tried. I would probably beat myself up for it for the rest of my life, wondering if something could have been done to save him :cry:

Also, you said you tried basically everything with Ginger but nothing worked? What kind of treatment is she getting right now, is she on any special meds etc. to keep her happy and comfortable?

GrahamL
17-11-2011, 01:48 PM
But a C&S test would be hard wouldn't it seeing as he doesn't have any discharge to take samples from..? Maybe a blood sample could be helpful (not the same thing I know but still) ?

If it is an infection I'm sure there MUST be some abx out there that WILL make him better, I'm just worried that my vet will refuse to let me try them out if there are risks involved :? It would be such a shame to have to put him to sleep when there were still options that we hadn't tried. I would probably beat myself up for it for the rest of my life, wondering if something could have been done to save him :cry:

Also, you said you tried basically everything with Ginger but nothing worked? What kind of treatment is she getting right now, is she on any special meds etc. to keep her happy and comfortable?

Indeed, nothing has worked for Ginger. We were referred to a leading rabbit vet in the UK, went for a long and brilliant consultation. Unfortunately, Ginger doesn't have much of an immune system, along with kidneys that don't work properly, (another case of bad-breeding :roll:) and although the abx helped, they never 'cured'. Nothing ever will. So, she's currently on daily metacam (0.6ml x 2 daily) - this helps with inflamation in the nasal areas for her and keeps her chest clear, and also, pain relief, for if her nose hurts, but mainly, for her teeth issues (her mouth is a mess).

She also is nebulised, twice daily (was 3 times a day, but we're reducing it, to see what she can handle) with F10SC, a veterinary disinfectant mixed with water 1:250 ration, which helps keep the infection as low as possible.

She'll always have a snotty nose, sometimes runny eyes, but we're keeping her comfy. That's all we can do now.

For Boris, if you can't nebulise with that, and it is an RTI of sorts, it may be worth creating your own nebuliser of sorts. Get the shower room nice and hot and steamy and take him in and let him breath in the steam. It may help thin out anything that is there. I'm no vet though and i can't tell you to do anything, just give you my experience.

I wouldn't PTS until Boris told you he was ready to go. A bunny that still eats/drinks and runs around happy is not, in my opinion, ready to go.

Vita
17-11-2011, 01:53 PM
So is Bactrim supposed to be more effective than Baytril then? Or am I not understanding it right? I think they only had Bactrim..it might be possible for me to get Baytril from the pharmacy with a subscription but if it's not as strong as Bactrim it won't do anything for him anyway :(
I don't know about their respective strengths - but they may be useful against different bacteria. Some people on here have found Baytril wans't effective for their buns - but other people's rabbits *have* been helped by it.


Also, if the abx isn't licensed for use in rabbits, are the vets really allowed to subscribe them? When it could potentially be really dangerous to the animal?
I don't know what the situation is in Sweden for off-label veterinary prescribing (or even what drugs may be licensed for rabbits there), but specialist vets seem to do it quite frequently here. The licensing issue just means the safety testing hasn't been as extensive and through a full bureaucratic process - it hasn't caught up with newer research studies and specialist practitioners. The use of the drug is at a more experimental stage.

I really hope he can be ok and that some of your research helps!

ETA: The C&S test is done under general anaesthetic and they open up the nose. My Ada was and is very rarely snotty - just sneezy - but the vets found lots of pus inside her nose to take a culture from. However, your bun is only coughing rather than sneezing, isn't he? So I've no idea whether the same type of test would still be appropriate.

lucy24
17-11-2011, 02:01 PM
vibes for borris!!!:wave:

Oompa-Loompa
17-11-2011, 02:09 PM
@GrahamL : I've actually sort of tried the steam thing, there's a shower right outside their room which I've had running a couple times a day to create a more steamy environment. It does seem to help his breathing somewhat, but I'm going to bring him upstairs tonight and put him in the proper shower room for a bit as it's easier to make it really warm and steamy for him. I need to brush him as well, which he won't appreciate :roll: But I don't want to cover the poor vet nurses in white fluff tomorrow! I'm certainly not letting him go until he tells me he's ready, which he is definitely not doing yet. He seems very happy and active despite his problems :) I guess if his situation turns out anything like the one your Ginger is in, I'll do what you do, keep him comfortable and happy for as long as possible :) But I definitely want to try every option first.

@Vita : Oh ok, that cleared things up a bit. I don't know what the rules are here either, but I guess that's another thing I'll be adding to my list of things to bring up with the vet. Just because a drug hasn't been tested doesn't mean it's not safe to use, like GrahamL pointed out, and for all I know, maybe it's done quite frequently over here as well. I wouldn't know, I've never had to deal with anything like this before. It's quite possible that I'm wrong! I'll ask about Baytril as well because who knows, it might be worth trying. And yes, he's coughing and not sneezing, so I don't know if that would help at all..it might just make things worse with him having to be under GA :(

And thanks, I really hope he can overcome this and be a healthy bun again. It would mean the world to me, I love him so much :love:

Oompa-Loompa
18-11-2011, 11:23 AM
Going to the vets today. I'm a nervous wreck :(

GrahamL
18-11-2011, 11:25 AM
Going to the vets today. I'm a nervous wreck :(

Good Luck. Keep us informed :)

Oompa-Loompa
18-11-2011, 03:10 PM
Just came back about half an hour ago, everything went well, Boris was as good as gold :love: Obviously very disapproving right now and still pretty stressed out, but I'm going to try to tempt him with some of his favourite foods later to see if that makes him happier. The vet examined him pretty thoroughly but did not think blood samples and x-rays would be needed right now. She couldn't actually hear anything abnormal in his lungs and heart except for the breathing being obviously laboured, she checked his temperature as well which was normal, she was still unable to set a diagnosis but she did say that at this point it looks a lot like pasteurella in which case we are lucky if we can ever get rid of it properly :( Obviously that's still something that's managable as opposed to the other possibilities (tumours etc.) so it wouldn't be the end of the world. We were given some Baytril (tablet form) which he'll be having once a day for 10 days. So now all we can do is hope and pray that he'll respond well to this and maybe even stay well after the treatment has ended :) I don't dare get my hopes up though, I've done that so many times and ended up heartbroken :( But I'm certainly glad that it's over with and that he behaved so well while being examined :love: Not to mention the fact that he was licking me the whole time :')

GrahamL
18-11-2011, 03:17 PM
Just came back about half an hour ago, everything went well, Boris was as good as gold :love: Obviously very disapproving right now and still pretty stressed out, but I'm going to try to tempt him with some of his favourite foods later to see if that makes him happier. The vet examined him pretty thoroughly but did not think blood samples and x-rays would be needed right now. She couldn't actually hear anything abnormal in his lungs and heart except for the breathing being obviously laboured, she checked his temperature as well which was normal, she was still unable to set a diagnosis but she did say that at this point it looks a lot like pasteurella in which case we are lucky if we can ever get rid of it properly :( Obviously that's still something that's managable as opposed to the other possibilities (tumours etc.) so it wouldn't be the end of the world. We were given some Baytril (tablet form) which he'll be having once a day for 10 days. So now all we can do is hope and pray that he'll respond well to this and maybe even stay well after the treatment has ended :) I don't dare get my hopes up though, I've done that so many times and ended up heartbroken :( But I'm certainly glad that it's over with and that he behaved so well while being examined :love: Not to mention the fact that he was licking me the whole time :')

This is going to sound odd, but thats brilliant news in comparison to what you were looking at.

I'm so pleased it went well :love:

Can we get a picture of Boris, so we can see this brave little man?

Vita
18-11-2011, 03:18 PM
Glad it went smoothly after all and that he's being so good about it. I hope this stuff works for him :)

Oompa-Loompa
18-11-2011, 03:45 PM
Here's a picture of my brave little man :) I know he's strong enough to fight this whatever it is, and I'm not giving up on him until he tells me he wants to move on. I love him so so much :love: Thanks for all of your support, it means a lot to me :)

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3596/sam0709s.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/sam0709s.jpg/)

GrahamL
18-11-2011, 03:47 PM
Here's a picture of my brave little man :) I know he's strong enough to fight this whatever it is, and I'm not giving up on him until he tells me he wants to move on. I love him so so much :love: Thanks for all of your support, it means a lot to me :)

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3596/sam0709s.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/sam0709s.jpg/)

:love:

He is gorgeous, looks very contented with life :)

Well doen for fighting alongside him.

Oompa-Loompa
18-11-2011, 03:53 PM
He looks slightly more disapproving right now, but I heard him nibble some treats just now so I think he'll be ok :) Giving him some Baytril later tonight, most likely in a piece of banana (his favourite treat). I hope little Ginger continues to do well too :)

Vita
18-11-2011, 04:01 PM
Here's a picture of my brave little man :) I know he's strong enough to fight this whatever it is, and I'm not giving up on him until he tells me he wants to move on. I love him so so much :love: Thanks for all of your support, it means a lot to me :)

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/3596/sam0709s.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/sam0709s.jpg/)
Oh, isn't he lovely? He looks so calm there.

Tinsel
18-11-2011, 05:50 PM
Sending vibes that the tablets work. He has such lovely markings! :love:

Oompa-Loompa
18-11-2011, 08:19 PM
Boris says "fank yoo", but would also like to point out that "I iz gorgeouz and I knowz it" :roll::lol:

He just had his first dosage of Baytril! And has been reunited with his wifeybun (kept them seperate for a while until he had calmed down) :love: