Please can I have some vibes for Fudgie

[Griffski]

Sending loads of vibes for Fudgie.....

 

[MightyMax]

Topping up the vibes, Scrappy.

I hope all is quiet in your household this weekend. With lots of munching and pooping, obviously

 

[tlcwrites]

Hope Fudgie is still on the mend today. xxx

 

[Scrappy's Little Helper]

Thanks very much for the vibes everyone. I really do appreciate them xxx

Fudgie is pretty much the same today. She is still only picking at food. I'm concerned whether her eating should have picked up by now. She was admitted early Monday morning and started nibbling on Tuesday. That's now five days of needing syringe feeding. In people's experience of severe gut stasis is this abnormal?

I'm wondering whether to take her to my usual vet on Monday to have her looked at again if her eating doesn't pick up more. My main worry is that she gets very stressed at the vets and it could set her recovery back. Of course if she gets worse she'll be taken straight in.

Could I be filling her up too much with the CC? She is 1.9 kgs and I'm feeding 10 mls every four hours (expect at night when the gap is 6 hours). I'm using the supreme 15 ml syringe so can get a fairly thick mixture through. She is very feisty during the feeds but once the syringe is in she takes it very well. I'm not sure whether to change the feeding pattern (e.g. smaller amounts more often or leave a bigger gap between feeds, e.g. every 6 hours). I'm still giving her pain relief and gut meds.

Sorry for all the questions. I keep turning over in my mind today what to do for the best.


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[Jack's-Jane]

Thanks very much for the vibes everyone. I really do appreciate them xxx

Fudgie is pretty much the same today. She is still only picking at food. I'm concerned whether her eating should have picked up by now. She was admitted early Monday morning and started nibbling on Tuesday. That's now five days of needing syringe feeding. In people's experience of severe gut stasis is this abnormal?

I'm wondering whether to take her to my usual vet on Monday to have her looked at again if her eating doesn't pick up more. My main worry is that she gets very stressed at the vets and it could set her recovery back. Of course if she gets worse she'll be taken straight in.

Could I be filling her up too much with the CC? She is 1.9 kgs and I'm feeding 10 mls every four hours (expect at night when the gap is 6 hours). I'm using the supreme 15 ml syringe so can get a fairly thick mixture through. She is very feisty during the feeds but once the syringe is in she takes it very well. I'm not sure whether to change the feeding pattern (e.g. smaller amounts more often or leave a bigger gap between feeds, e.g. every 6 hours). I'm still giving her pain relief and gut meds.

Sorry for all the questions. I keep turning over in my mind today what to do for the best.


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I am assuming that the Vet has ruled out any possibility of Dental problems being involved ?

 

[MightyMax]

Thanks very much for the vibes everyone. I really do appreciate them xxx

Fudgie is pretty much the same today. She is still only picking at food. I'm concerned whether her eating should have picked up by now. She was admitted early Monday morning and started nibbling on Tuesday. That's now five days of needing syringe feeding. In people's experience of severe gut stasis is this abnormal?

I'm wondering whether to take her to my usual vet on Monday to have her looked at again if her eating doesn't pick up more. My main worry is that she gets very stressed at the vets and it could set her recovery back. Of course if she gets worse she'll be taken straight in.

Could I be filling her up too much with the CC? She is 1.9 kgs and I'm feeding 10 mls every four hours (expect at night when the gap is 6 hours). I'm using the supreme 15 ml syringe so can get a fairly thick mixture through. She is very feisty during the feeds but once the syringe is in she takes it very well. I'm not sure whether to change the feeding pattern (e.g. smaller amounts more often or leave a bigger gap between feeds, e.g. every 6 hours). I'm still giving her pain relief and gut meds.

Sorry for all the questions. I keep turning over in my mind today what to do for the best.


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Hi Scrappy

What you are feeding is a good amount, well done you!

Have you tried herbs and forage? Rose leaves or fresh picked grass? Nothing tempting her?

I have had bunnies that have taken a lot longer than that to get eating, and been fine But it's a bit of a worry, I do agree.

I would take her to your usual vet on Monday if she hasn't picked up by then. You could scale down the syringe feeding a bit, but I would be concerned to keep her gut moving.

What do her poos look like?

 

[Scrappy's Little Helper]

Thanks very much to you both. Jane, her teeth were checked and they appeared fine as far as they could see with the scope. I guess the ones right at the back could possibly be an issue. Am I right in thinking they would need to do a skull x ray to see those? Of the four buns I've had she is by far the best hay eater, often preferring it over everything else so her teeth have always been in excellent condition. Although I'm not going to be complacent about her teeth, I know bad luck can throw up issues despite a good diet.

MM, her poos are a bit of a mixed bag today. All still misshapen, some are a lot bigger than others. However they all do feel wet to the touch. Is that normal at this stage or would that indicate she needs to be on another type of gut med? She's currently on metaclopromide.

I've put some fresh dill (her favourite herb), plantain and brambles with her and she has been nibbling them through the day. I wasn't sure about grass as she has never had fresh grass. I know it's very rich in springtime but wasn't sure whether it would be ok to try her on at this time of year. I guess I'm a bit over cautious about giving her anything she hasn't had before in case it upsets her tummy more. She is perfectly ok on readigrass though.

Thanks very much for the reassurance about the eating. I think I will take her back on Monday. I'd like to talk to my vet about her back teeth, the gut meds and the metacam dosage. She's on 0.8 mls per day of the dog metacam and she's 1.9 kgs. To be honest I have no idea if that's sufficient. I want to make sure it's keeping on top of pain as I know that is a huge factor in a rabbit's reluctance to eat.


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[Omi]

Sending more vibes for Fudgie. I would try her with some fresh grass. I think if you try a small amount to start with it will be fine, especially as she is used to Readigrass. Whenever any of mine have had periods of not eating, they have always started to eat by eating fresh green food rather than hay or pellets.

 

[MightyMax]

Thanks very much to you both. Jane, her teeth were checked and they appeared fine as far as they could see with the scope. I guess the ones right at the back could possibly be an issue. Am I right in thinking they would need to do a skull x ray to see those? Of the four buns I've had she is by far the best hay eater, often preferring it over everything else so her teeth have always been in excellent condition. Although I'm not going to be complacent about her teeth, I know bad luck can throw up issues despite a good diet.

MM, her poos are a bit of a mixed bag today. All still misshapen, some are a lot bigger than others. However they all do feel wet to the touch. Is that normal at this stage or would that indicate she needs to be on another type of gut med? She's currently on metaclopromide.

I've put some fresh dill (her favourite herb), plantain and brambles with her and she has been nibbling them through the day. I wasn't sure about grass as she has never had fresh grass. I know it's very rich in springtime but wasn't sure whether it would be ok to try her on at this time of year. I guess I'm a bit over cautious about giving her anything she hasn't had before in case it upsets her tummy more. She is perfectly ok on readigrass though.

Thanks very much for the reassurance about the eating. I think I will take her back on Monday. I'd like to talk to my vet about her back teeth, the gut meds and the metacam dosage. She's on 0.8 mls per day of the dog metacam and she's 1.9 kgs. To be honest I have no idea if that's sufficient. I want to make sure it's keeping on top of pain as I know that is a huge factor in a rabbit's reluctance to eat.


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Hi Scrappy

You could ask about adding in Zantac to protect the stomach of a bun who isn't eating much. Though I am glad to hear about the poos

Regarding the Metcam dose - sounds pretty conservative, so you might be able to get the vet to up it a bit ...

Unless your vet can do conscious dentals (i.e. look at all the teeth without sedation - AND deal with them) then sedation is the only method of most vets seeing the cheek teeth and perhaps filing down spurs if necessary.

There are very strong opinions from some people on here regarding conscious dentals!


Some info on gut motility meds:

Metoclopromide acts on the upper GI tract and so increases the rate at which the stomach empties into the small intestines.

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/Metoclopramide.htm


I have also used Cisapride - not so easy to obtain:

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/Cisapride.htm

Prokinetics are in this article:

http://anyflip.com/dvpt/hzvv

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Thanks very much to you both. Jane, her teeth were checked and they appeared fine as far as they could see with the scope. I guess the ones right at the back could possibly be an issue. Am I right in thinking they would need to do a skull x ray to see those? Of the four buns I've had she is by far the best hay eater, often preferring it over everything else so her teeth have always been in excellent condition. Although I'm not going to be complacent about her teeth, I know bad luck can throw up issues despite a good diet.

MM, her poos are a bit of a mixed bag today. All still misshapen, some are a lot bigger than others. However they all do feel wet to the touch. Is that normal at this stage or would that indicate she needs to be on another type of gut med? She's currently on metaclopromide.

I've put some fresh dill (her favourite herb), plantain and brambles with her and she has been nibbling them through the day. I wasn't sure about grass as she has never had fresh grass. I know it's very rich in springtime but wasn't sure whether it would be ok to try her on at this time of year. I guess I'm a bit over cautious about giving her anything she hasn't had before in case it upsets her tummy more. She is perfectly ok on readigrass though.

Thanks very much for the reassurance about the eating. I think I will take her back on Monday. I'd like to talk to my vet about her back teeth, the gut meds and the metacam dosage. She's on 0.8 mls per day of the dog metacam and she's 1.9 kgs. To be honest I have no idea if that's sufficient. I want to make sure it's keeping on top of pain as I know that is a huge factor in a rabbit's reluctance to eat.


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Skull radiographs are used to assess the tooth roots and any other potential problems that may be going on below the surface.



It is impossible for a Vet to obtain a 100% view of the inside of a Rabbit's mouth whilst the Rabbit is awake. No matter how 'skilled' the Vet they cant do what is totally impossible

Clinical examination

A dental examination should be preceded by a full history,
including a detailed dietary history. Clinical examination should
include:
– Facial palpation – for any bony or soft tissue swellings,
especially palpation of the ventral border of the mandible
where elongated apices may be present.
– Assessment of degree of lateral movement of the mandible
– Examination of length, quality and occlusion of the incisors
– Examination of the cheek teeth
An initial examination of the cheek teeth can be carried out
in the conscious animal, with use of an otoscope, although it
must be recognised that visibility and detection of abnormalities
will be limited. It is estimated that conscious examination will
reveal only 50% of abnormalities, however. If dental disease is
suspected or lesions are detected in the conscious examination,
examination under deep sedation or anaesthesia must be
performed. This requires the use of specialist gags and cheek
retractors to enable good visualisation (Fig 3). Even then, it is
estimated that only 75% of lesions will be detected, with the
remainder only being picked up on post-mortem examination
(D A Crossley personal communication)

Info about David Crossley- http://www.dacross.uk/




Full text here :

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Dental_diseases/Differential/Rabbit_dentistry.pdf

If Fudgie's eating has not picked up significantly by tomorrow and her output remains abnormal/reduced I would give the Vet a call in the morning for some additional advice. It may be that your Vet will want to run some diagnostics, not necessarily involving a GA. Maybe a full blood profile to start with.

Some cases of gut stasis with 'unknown cause' can take a rather long time to fully resolve. But I would want the Rabbit to be re-examined by a Vet if things were not almost back to normal after a week of ongoing treatment. Gut stasis can often be a secondary symptom of another problem and obviously if the primary problem remains the secondary symptoms are unlikely to fully resolve.

I expect that you have already seen a lot of online Info' about Gut Stasis, but I'll post this one anyway

http://anyflip.com/dvpt/hzvv

and a more general article about the Rabbit Digestive System

http://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/pdfs/ROWinter10p7.pdf

Is Fudgie getting very stressed with all the 'hands on' care ?

 

[Scrappy's Little Helper]

Thanks very much for the information Jane, I really appreciate it as it's given me a lot to discuss with my vet to try and determine why she's taking so long to recover from this stasis episode. To be honest I was starting to wonder if there might be something else going on and I'd now like to look into that sooner rather than later.

Bit more positive news this morning. She deposited her latest poos, there were quite a lot of them and they are the biggest and most uniform in size she's done so far and rounder in shape. She also came running over for her breakfast, but again only ate a bit of it.

She is actually coping better than expected with the hands on care. Before doing the feeds I'm managing to block her into a smaller area so I don't stress her out more by chasing her all over the flat. It also definitely helps doing the feeds on the floor.


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[Jack's-Jane]

Thanks very much for the information Jane, I really appreciate it as it's given me a lot to discuss with my vet to try and determine why she's taking so long to recover from this stasis episode. To be honest I was starting to wonder if there might be something else going on and I'd now like to look into that sooner rather than later.

Bit more positive news this morning. She deposited her latest poos, there were quite a lot of them and they are the biggest and most uniform in size she's done so far and rounder in shape. She also came running over for her breakfast, but again only ate a bit of it.

She is actually coping better than expected with the hands on care. Before doing the feeds I'm managing to block her into a smaller area so I don't stress her out more by chasing her all over the flat. It also definitely helps doing the feeds on the floor.


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That's OK, I hope it wasn't information overload.

It's good to hear that she is coping reasonably well with the hands on care. Well done for finding a method of doing the feeds that works best for her. You never know she may yet get fully back to normal by tomorrow !

 

[MightyMax]

Thanks very much for the information Jane, I really appreciate it as it's given me a lot to discuss with my vet to try and determine why she's taking so long to recover from this stasis episode. To be honest I was starting to wonder if there might be something else going on and I'd now like to look into that sooner rather than later.

Bit more positive news this morning. She deposited her latest poos, there were quite a lot of them and they are the biggest and most uniform in size she's done so far and rounder in shape. She also came running over for her breakfast, but again only ate a bit of it.

She is actually coping better than expected with the hands on care. Before doing the feeds I'm managing to block her into a smaller area so I don't stress her out more by chasing her all over the flat. It also definitely helps doing the feeds on the floor.


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If there wasn't any evidence of teeth issues before, it's not going to be the first thing you think of, as why would they suddenly manifest now? That said, bunnies get to a point where the teeth just 'bother them' and they can't put up with it any longer ...

Conscious dentals are perfectly possible, safe and require no recovery time. I have two expert specialists on board. Those who haven't seen it done will always be of the view that it's impossible. Having seen it every time, I know how it's done, and myself and many others find it invaluable as there's no risk to a depleted rabbit from anaesthesia

 

[tulsi]

Only just seen this thread.

I hope that Fudge is continuing to improve and that she doesnt have anything else going on. So glad that she and Snoopy are getting on well together after their separation.

Lots of vibes to you all.

 

[Scrappy's Little Helper]

Bit more positive news. She's just been in the litter tray and has done a decent number of poos. She also just ate more in one go than she has done so far this week. Dare I hope?! I'm glad this has happened early in the afternoon as I'll have most of the day to observe her and decide what to do in the morning. I don't know whether the fact she is doing more and better quality poos is making her stomach feel better and so she's feeling more comfortable eating?


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[Jack's-Jane]

Bit more positive news. She's just been in the litter tray and has done a decent number of poos. She also just ate more in one go than she has done so far this week. Dare I hope?! I'm glad this has happened early in the afternoon as I'll have most of the day to observe her and decide what to do in the morning. I don't know whether the fact she is doing more and better quality poos is making her stomach feel better and so she's feeling more comfortable eating?


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It will certainly help ! Here's hoping that by tomorrow you will be lost under a mountain of Bunny poo

 

[Liz47]

I'm sorry you and Fudge have had a bad week, but glad to read it looks like she is picking up now. Lots of vibes being sent for both of you xx

 

[cpayne]

Sounds like you've had a tough time. Always like a rollercoaster. As you know doughnut has a couple of gut issues and she's on permanent ranitidine. I add in metacam and metaclop and cisapride too when needed. Her poo feels wet when on all medicines. I think the metacam is very low. Doughnut can have 0 5 of the dog one 3 times a day and she is 1 2kg. It's better to split it to two doses so after 12 hours she's topped up as your bunny may be in pain after about 20 hours. Sounds like little one is doing better though and I would think the running around is getting her gut going so helping her. Fingers crossed there's lots more improvement.

 

[Scrappy's Little Helper]

Thanks for sharing your experience Cpayne. It does sound like she's on quite a low dosage compared to Doughnut. I need to speak to my vet anyway tomorrow about getting more gut meds. It looks like the hospital dispensed exactly five days worth, absolutely zero margin for error! I'm going to take the opportunity to ask about increasing the metacam dosage while I'm there.

She has been eating more this afternoon. I went out and picked some fresh grass for her and it seems to be going down well. In fact they both like it. They'll probably expect it every day now. I'll have to get myself a scythe!

Latest poo report: they're getting bigger and looking more like her normal ones in shape and colour. I'd say they're about half the normal size, up from a quarter before. So hopefully heading in the right direction. I'm not ashamed to say I'm in the grip of poo obsession. Every time she jumps out of the litter tray I steam over to inspect the updates.


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[Jack's-Jane]

Thanks for sharing your experience Cpayne. It does sound like she's on quite a low dosage compared to Doughnut. I need to speak to my vet anyway tomorrow about getting more gut meds. It looks like the hospital dispensed exactly five days worth, absolutely zero margin for error! I'm going to take the opportunity to ask about increasing the metacam dosage while I'm there.

She has been eating more this afternoon. I went out and picked some fresh grass for her and it seems to be going down well. In fact they both like it. They'll probably expect it every day now. I'll have to get myself a scythe!

Latest poo report: they're getting bigger and looking more like her normal ones in shape and colour. I'd say they're about half the normal size, up from a quarter before. So hopefully heading in the right direction. I'm not ashamed to say I'm in the grip of poo obsession. Every time she jumps out of the litter tray I steam over to inspect the updates.


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It really does sound as though she is recovering, just rather more slowly than we would hope. Grass is great to get both fibre and hydration into her xx