My buns diet - where am I going wrong? - New questions on post #20 (sorry!)

[tonibun]

I think you are making it far too difficult! Forage is great but can you find enough every day. I couldn't find enough for 50 rabbits so mine get about 1/2 - a full eggcup of pellets/Muesli, a small amount of veg, maybe spring greens or Savoy, yesterday someone had given me a lot of cauliflower leaves so they had a small piece of that. Hay of course. This diet keeps mine healthy. You can also give them a handful of Readigrass every other day and maybe a treat now and then. Your rabbits will be getting all the nutrition they need from this diet. My rabbits won't eat nettles, if you have a lot I think they are better dried. Long grass is their favourite but I don't see much of that any more round here.

 

[Omi]

My rabbits will eat most things, but they won't eat nettles

If I were you I would not change their diet drastically at the moment. If you do this, you will not be able to determine just what has made the difference. I would just cut out the treats and cut out all vegetables (not herbs), not just reduce them. I would see how they all get on with this for several weeks. I would try to increase hay intake. As far as forage is concerned, yes I feed a lot of forage, more in the summer than the winter because of availability. Dried is almost as good as fresh, but it doesn't have the moisture content. I would not cut out the Fibafirst yet.

 

[MightyMax]

Ah, I see. Sounds like a great idea!
I'm going to have to start making a list of these plants! :lol: I can identify brambles and nettles.. But I think that's where that ends


Okay, one more post of questions and then I'll try to stop bothering you all
So I've been looking into the forage idea a little more and I really like the idea of it. Thinking about it it's far more natural for them as it's what a wild rabbit would eat - they wouldn't have access to greens, kale, cabbage etc. At least not as a rule. I did a similar thing with Max in taking him off of store bough kibble etc and putting him on a BARF diet (bones and raw food) along with a brand of dehydrated raw food called Pure. It made a huge difference to him as it was a more natural diet and the change was unbelievable - he lost his 'doggy' smell, his coat was shiny and his skin problems disappeared. He also had more energy. As a vegetarian myself I didn't exactly enjoy preparing it - actually I found it very difficult - but it was good for him so I stuck with it.
I'm guessing it would be a similar thing with rabbits to feed them something more natural. Maybe not eliminate the veg entirely but dramatically reduce it.
Now obviously growing things is my ultimate goal but I can't do a lot on that until we move. I can't really plant things here unless they're in pots so that's going to limit how much I can do, though I will start getting some seeds and pots so I can grow some things. Foraging from woods, parks etc *might* be a possibility from time to time but not something I could do every day.
So what about dried forage? Would it work to cut fibafirst, pellets etc out completely and instead have a mix of dried forage, supplemented with a bit of fresh from the garden when availablie and a small amount of veg/herbs in the evening? How would I go about balancing nutrition? Obviously different types of hay still being available at all times.
Sorry for all the questions. I really like the idea of this but have no idea how to go about it and I don't want them to end up with a deficiency in one thing or too much of another. Are there any guides I could read? Or would that be covered in the book MightyMax mentioned? It's definitely on my list of things to buy now.
In terms of cost, I'm guessing it's cheaper to buy in bulk wherever possible bearing in mind there are eight hungry mouths to feed Is there somewhere anyone can suggest to buy at least some of it in larger bags (for example something inteded for horses etc). The one's Jane linked to on Zooplus look lovely but they're in small 500g bags. Is that the only way to buy them?
Sorry for all the questions I promise I'll try not to post anything after this
I'd really like to give this a try and see how the buns respond to it. If it would work it would be great if I could get the ingredients and mix up a couple of different batches with different plants in so they've got some variety throughout the week. But I'm way out of my depth here and I don't want to do more damage by rushing in without doing the proper research first. If anyone knows of a guide or a book that can help me work out the nutritional requirements and what I should be looking for and in what quantities, that would be incredibly helpful. Then I'll try to leave you alone :lol:

Thank you all so much for your help. You've all been absolutely wonderful and I really do appreciate all the time you've taken over the past few days answering my thread about Snowflake and this one as well xx

For a start, you must bother us And keep bothering us
You can always bother me privately! :lol:

The book by Twigs doesn't give advice on nutrition, but helps identify plants. I also gave you a couple of links which might help with 'free food' and you can google the safe stuff.

If can find a member of RU near you, perhaps you can go out foraging together? I have managed to find Cow Parsley all winter - never had a shortage. The rabbits love it and it's a staple. BUT you have to be careful that you've found cow parsley and not hemlock. Not to scare you but do your research if it's anything more complicated than dandelions, nettles and brambles. (My bunnies love the one day old dried nettles, by the way!)

Dried forage is good, but as I mentioned earlier, it's without the moisture - as is hay. It's good to have some fresh foods to balance hay eating and keep everything moving nicely through the system.

When you've time to spare - get a cuppa and have a read of these threads:

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?455755-my-foraging-diary&highlight=foraging+rabbits

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...ried-given-your-stasis-prone-buns-tree-leaves

(this last thread is from thumps, an amazing lady who has put a lot of thought and effort into stasis and it's causes. And more importantly - how to help our rabbits )

It's coming up to Spring, and we will all be able to help you identify trees/leaves etc. Hawthorn will be coming out soon, and that's a good one and often around in wasteland areas.

On the foraging thread, you can post photos of anything and everything you find (you see, you will have to keep bothering us after all!) and we will identify them for you.

Regarding Zooplus - it's a wonderful resource, but with a few mouths to feed it's definitely on the expensive side! Hay from Timothyhay.co.uk is excellent and they have oat hay as well.

I would go carefully with cutting everything out straight away, simply because some rabbits get stressed and decide they won't eat when things change suddenly, but this is something to discuss here and with your regular vet.

 

[joey&boo]

I can send you my foraging for rabbits book (its a bit dog earred) - I can't use it anymore. P.M me your address if you'd like it. I also printed out this poster as it has nice clear images & used to take it out with me

http://www.actionforrabbits.co.uk/Toxic%20&%20Safe%20Plants%20v2.pdf


Foraging becomes really addictive, I love it. It also gets so much easier over time. The my foraging diary thread has nice clear photos & a lot of good information in one place (1st link on MM's post above). Excellent time of year to get thinking about all this.

 

[Shayne_]

Personally I would cut out treats and veg and push the hay intake. I feel cruel at times because I don't spoil my bunnies with veg like I used to. It never really kept their guts right and wasn't too good for teeth as they didn't eat enough hay. Now I spoil with lots of different hays, dried herbs and flowers, readigrasses and only a tiny bit of veg/greens/fresh herbs a day.


Oh and Crash Bunny ismeant to be on a diet.... yet he's still growing!! He's 2.7kg ! I swear to !!!! If I limit any more he will be starved lol

 

[roxyroller88]

I'm also scared of foraging. I've convinced myself that I will poison my buns by giving them something that they shouldn't have! I am going to try once the weather picks up though!
In the mean time you could try Galen's Garden or The Hay Experts for dried forage. Xx

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

I think you are making it far too difficult! Forage is great but can you find enough every day. I couldn't find enough for 50 rabbits so mine get about 1/2 - a full eggcup of pellets/Muesli, a small amount of veg, maybe spring greens or Savoy, yesterday someone had given me a lot of cauliflower leaves so they had a small piece of that. Hay of course. This diet keeps mine healthy. You can also give them a handful of Readigrass every other day and maybe a treat now and then. Your rabbits will be getting all the nutrition they need from this diet. My rabbits won't eat nettles, if you have a lot I think they are better dried. Long grass is their favourite but I don't see much of that any more round here.

Haha, I'm probably overreacting I guess I just don't want this to happen again and now that it's been brought to my attention vegetables really aren't as natural for a rabbit as I suppose I always thought they were. Wild rabbits would probably get little to nothing in the way of vegetables. They mostly eat grass and other readily available plants, so that's what they're built for. I saw the difference a natural diet made to my dog, I guess I'm hoping it would be better for the rabbits too.
Oh, I forgot to meantion I feed Readigrass too! Not in large amounts as I know it can be a bit rich. I haven't fed it for a couple of months though, been saving to get the big 15kg bag as that lasted ages last time and it's a lot cheaper. I'll see how mine go with nettles, if they don't like them then I won't bother, but can't hurt to try. Obviously one new thing at a time, starting small and slowly increasing amounts.

If I were you I would not change their diet drastically at the moment. If you do this, you will not be able to determine just what has made the difference. I would just cut out the treats and cut out all vegetables (not herbs), not just reduce them. I would see how they all get on with this for several weeks. I would try to increase hay intake. As far as forage is concerned, yes I feed a lot of forage, more in the summer than the winter because of availability. Dried is almost as good as fresh, but it doesn't have the moisture content. I would not cut out the Fibafirst yet.

Oh, I didn't mean make drastic changes. I know any diet change needs to be gradual. I'll cut out the treats for now, maybe if they all seem stable I'll use up what I have very gradually later on. I know dried won't have the moisture content but I'd have thought it would lose some nutritional value too? Still probably better than commercial pellets though.
I've still got a 2kg box of Fibafirst and a 1kg box of the weight management one bought exclusively for Lunar roll so I'd want to use them up first anyway. They've been on them for years so I doubt they're causing trouble.

For a start, you must bother us And keep bothering us
You can always bother me privately! :lol:

The book by Twigs doesn't give advice on nutrition, but helps identify plants. I also gave you a couple of links which might help with 'free food' and you can google the safe stuff.

If can find a member of RU near you, perhaps you can go out foraging together? I have managed to find Cow Parsley all winter - never had a shortage. The rabbits love it and it's a staple. BUT you have to be careful that you've found cow parsley and not hemlock. Not to scare you but do your research if it's anything more complicated than dandelions, nettles and brambles. (My bunnies love the one day old dried nettles, by the way!)

Dried forage is good, but as I mentioned earlier, it's without the moisture - as is hay. It's good to have some fresh foods to balance hay eating and keep everything moving nicely through the system.

When you've time to spare - get a cuppa and have a read of these threads:

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?455755-my-foraging-diary&highlight=foraging+rabbits

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...ried-given-your-stasis-prone-buns-tree-leaves

(this last thread is from thumps, an amazing lady who has put a lot of thought and effort into stasis and it's causes. And more importantly - how to help our rabbits )

It's coming up to Spring, and we will all be able to help you identify trees/leaves etc. Hawthorn will be coming out soon, and that's a good one and often around in wasteland areas.

On the foraging thread, you can post photos of anything and everything you find (you see, you will have to keep bothering us after all!) and we will identify them for you.

Regarding Zooplus - it's a wonderful resource, but with a few mouths to feed it's definitely on the expensive side! Hay from Timothyhay.co.uk is excellent and they have oat hay as well.

I would go carefully with cutting everything out straight away, simply because some rabbits get stressed and decide they won't eat when things change suddenly, but this is something to discuss here and with your regular vet.

Well I have made a lot of posts the past few days and asked a lot of questions! :lol: I'm normally on here a lot but rarely post. I don't have enough knowledge to offer advice and I feel bad about asking a load of questions!
The hemlock thing's scary :shock: I know that people get used to what to look for but.. I'm really bad with plants and I know things can get confused easily. My Mum used to keep birds before I was born and someone gave her something (don't know what it was) and said it was safe for the birds.. It wasn't.. Can't remember what plant she said it was now but I've always remembered it and it's always made me nervous about picking anything for the bunnies. In fact I think the only things I've ever picked are grass, dandelions and blackberries
Thank you for the links! I'll take a look at them tomorrow afternoon as I'm planning to do some research on forage tomorrow.

After my experience yesterday preparing the buns veg and finding slug pellets all over it I must admit the thought of growing stuff myself has become even more appealing, even though I'm not a huge fan of gardening!
Oh, I went to order from Timothyhay.co.uk once before but at the time I think they were out of stock.
I found a beautiful timothy hay in Pampurred Pets, a pet shop I have near me. It was £4.99 for 1kg so not the cheapest but the bunnies loved it. Think it was called Special Gold or something. It was a lovely green colour and had a very sweet herbal smell. But last few times I've been in there I haven't been able to find it And I've not been able to find it online, except one place that charged at least twice the price for it. So I must get some more timothy hay as I suspect Pampurred Pets have stopped selling it.
I've never actually been able to get oat hay, every one I've found has always been expensive but I saw one earlier that looked good and was a good price. Now if only I could remember where it was! Might have been TheHayExperts, but I can't remember right now lol.

Any diet change I make is always slow, I know they can be upset by anything changing. I increased herbs a bit last night but still fed some spring greens and rocket, just a smaller amount than usual. Buying enough herbs for 8 bunnies gets expensive so I'd better get growing fast if I'm going to increase them! :lol: I know Snowflake certainly didn't complain - her eyes lit up when she saw all the coriander, basil and mint :lol:

I can send you my foraging for rabbits book (its a bit dog earred) - I can't use it anymore. P.M me your address if you'd like it. I also printed out this poster as it has nice clear images & used to take it out with me

http://www.actionforrabbits.co.uk/Toxic%20&%20Safe%20Plants%20v2.pdf


Foraging becomes really addictive, I love it. It also gets so much easier over time. The my foraging diary thread has nice clear photos & a lot of good information in one place (1st link on MM's post above). Excellent time of year to get thinking about all this.

Oh that's really kind of you! Thank you so much! But I'm happy to buy it, I just don't have anything left in my account this week after Snowflake's vet fees. I'm planning to get it in a week or two


I must admit I still find the idea scary. I don't have a problem with anything that's unmistakable (e.g nettles, brambles, dandelions etc) but the other stuff.. If it's something that can be confused with something else I must admit my instinct is to leave it alone.. Unless I've grown it myself and I'm 100% certain. My Mum's excited about the idea too. Although she can't do the gardening anymore I think she'd like to see the bunnies eating something that we've grown ourselves, we were talking about what different flowers and plants we could put in earlier and we're staring to make a list I've been wanting to grow echinacea for them for a while now as it seems like a good plant to have, especially if they get ill.

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Oops, didn't see the new replies. Think I left the tab up and forget to refresh

Personally I would cut out treats and veg and push the hay intake. I feel cruel at times because I don't spoil my bunnies with veg like I used to. It never really kept their guts right and wasn't too good for teeth as they didn't eat enough hay. Now I spoil with lots of different hays, dried herbs and flowers, readigrasses and only a tiny bit of veg/greens/fresh herbs a day.


Oh and Crash Bunny ismeant to be on a diet.... yet he's still growing!! He's 2.7kg ! I swear to !!!! If I limit any more he will be starved lol

They all eat a lot of hay. Thankfully they're all excellent hay eaters. From time to time they'll even take fresh hay over their vegetables if given at the same time!
Treats are gone for the moment. I'll gradually use up what I have later if/when they seem stable, but very gradually. I'll stick to natural stuff from now on.
Lol, that's the problem I'm having with Lunar! She must weigh about the same, she's definitely overweight but she is in a constant state of hunger! I've just swapped her to the weight management fibafirst hoping that it will help but she's still a challenge. She's always hungry! Thankfully she's a very energetic bunny but I still don't want her overweight, it won't do her any good.
Crash is beautiful I have a soft spot for tort-coloured bunnies. They always make me think of Willow. Does he have ears like that all the time? One up one down? Honey has ears like that She looks so funny because the one that sticks up seems to be further over, so it looks like she's just got one ear in the middle of her head lol.

I'm also scared of foraging. I've convinced myself that I will poison my buns by giving them something that they shouldn't have! I am going to try once the weather picks up though!
In the mean time you could try Galen's Garden or The Hay Experts for dried forage. Xx

I find the idea exciting but terrifying at the same time! Probably more of the latter if I'm honest. I'm unbelievably overprotective with my bunnies it annoys my family sometimes, though thankfully my Mum and brother both understand as they're about as bunny-mad as me
Galen's Garden is one I've never heard of - thanks! I'll take a look at is


Oh, I found the thread I was talking about! I knew I remembered something that Jane posted!
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...abbits-Now-Have-Instead-of-Pellet-Museli-Feed
This is the kind of thing I was talking about making.
What do you think? Do you think something like this might work better for my lot? Plus fresh herbs and other plants where available, and maybe a small amount of certain veg if they seem okay with it? (And hay, obviously!)

 

[MightyMax]

After my experience yesterday preparing the buns veg and finding slug pellets all over it I must admit the thought of growing stuff myself has become even more appealing, even though I'm not a huge fan of gardening!
Oh, I went to order from Timothyhay.co.uk once before but at the time I think they were out of stock.
I found a beautiful timothy hay in Pampurred Pets, a pet shop I have near me. It was £4.99 for 1kg so not the cheapest but the bunnies loved it. Think it was called Special Gold or something. It was a lovely green colour and had a very sweet herbal smell. But last few times I've been in there I haven't been able to find it And I've not been able to find it online, except one place that charged at least twice the price for it. So I must get some more timothy hay as I suspect Pampurred Pets have stopped selling it.
I've never actually been able to get oat hay, every one I've found has always been expensive but I saw one earlier that looked good and was a good price. Now if only I could remember where it was! Might have been TheHayExperts, but I can't remember right now lol.

I found the hay you mentioned:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Special-Gold-Timothy-Hay-1-8kg/dp/B01C78X342

Out of stock - and I can't find another stockist!

Zooplus have some lovely treat hays though. I am using these alongside timothy hay. Timothyhay.co.uk do have oat hay - email them and see if there's any in stock!

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

That's the one! Picture doesn't do it justice - it's lovely stuff. If you ever see it cheap enough you should pick it up. My buns couldn't get enough! Though I wonder if they've actually discontinued it if amazon don't have it either
I'll try to make an order from Timothyhay.co.uk soon, and I'll make one as Zooplus a little later when I can afford to. Thank you so much for the suggestions! I picked up some Excel grass forage today in P@H for £3.75 (it's reduced from £5) so they're currently munching - rather loudly - on that. I also got some dried forage leaves, flowers so they're happy for tonight

Edit: I don't suppose anyone knows where I can get dried forage/herbs etc in large/bulk packs? Everything I'm coming across is in tiny 100-200g bags

 

[Swiss Fox]

[/B]

Ha, that's me to a tee !! :lol: I just have to look at a plant and it wilts :? I try not to take it personally though

For dried Forages it is often cheaper to by online. Zooplus is a site I use on a regular basis

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/snacks_supplements/natural_plant_snacks

Hmm... I checked their website and they're selling:

JR Farm Super Small Pet Food
Mixed feed with leeks and carrots for rabbits and other small pets, also suitable as a main feed

I've read that leeks aren't recommended for rabbits?

http://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables-and-fruits-for-a-rabbit-diet/

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Hmm... I checked their website and they're selling:

JR Farm Super Small Pet Food
Mixed feed with leeks and carrots for rabbits and other small pets, also suitable as a main feed

I've read that leeks aren't recommended for rabbits?

http://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables-and-fruits-for-a-rabbit-diet/

You need to read the ingredients in each individual item sold. Just because it is from Zooplus does not guarantee it is suitable Buyer beware !

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

As Jane said, you need to check the ingredients on each item - a good rule when buying for rabbits Even if it says suitable for rabbits it isn't always the case. Just look at any pet shop and you'll see things full of corn, seeds and even dairy all marketed to rabbits when in fact they're dangerous. It's very frustrating. Leeks, unless I'm mistaken, are part of the onion family and definitely not safe for rabbits.
I found the JR ones cheaper on Miscota, but their delivery cost is very high :shock: £9.99 for less than £50! So not much good unless you're spending over that. I've found their prices good for some things and it goes down the more you order of a particular product but I've yet to order from them.
I'll probably make an order with Zooplus soon, I was just hoping I could find some in bulk a bit cheaper I want some of their hay, anyway :lol: Well not me personally but.. You know what I mean

Jane, do you mind if I bother you with a question? In the mix you used on the thread I linked to earlier (http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...abbits-Now-Have-Instead-of-Pellet-Museli-Feed) I noticed the horse feed contains alfalfa? I didn't think it was suitable for adult bunnies, is it okay in small amounts? I was thinking of ordering the same one but was worried about the alfalfa

 

[Jack's-Jane]

As Jane said, you need to check the ingredients on each item - a good rule when buying for rabbits Even if it says suitable for rabbits it isn't always the case. Just look at any pet shop and you'll see things full of corn, seeds and even dairy all marketed to rabbits when in fact they're dangerous. It's very frustrating. Leeks, unless I'm mistaken, are part of the onion family and definitely not safe for rabbits.
I found the JR ones cheaper on Miscota, but their delivery cost is very high :shock: £9.99 for less than £50! So not much good unless you're spending over that. I've found their prices good for some things and it goes down the more you order of a particular product but I've yet to order from them.
I'll probably make an order with Zooplus soon, I was just hoping I could find some in bulk a bit cheaper I want some of their hay, anyway :lol: Well not me personally but.. You know what I mean

Jane, do you mind if I bother you with a question? In the mix you used on the thread I linked to earlier (http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...abbits-Now-Have-Instead-of-Pellet-Museli-Feed) I noticed the horse feed contains alfalfa? I didn't think it was suitable for adult bunnies, is it okay in small amounts? I was thinking of ordering the same one but was worried about the alfalfa

In moderation Alfalfa is OK. If the Rabbit has a history of bladder sludge issues or is over-weight then I would not want to feed much Alfalfa. Lord H needs the calcium and calorific value of Alfalfa due to his specific GI tract problems xx

 

[MightyMax]

As Jane said, you need to check the ingredients on each item - a good rule when buying for rabbits Even if it says suitable for rabbits it isn't always the case. Just look at any pet shop and you'll see things full of corn, seeds and even dairy all marketed to rabbits when in fact they're dangerous. It's very frustrating. Leeks, unless I'm mistaken, are part of the onion family and definitely not safe for rabbits.
I found the JR ones cheaper on Miscota, but their delivery cost is very high :shock: £9.99 for less than £50! So not much good unless you're spending over that. I've found their prices good for some things and it goes down the more you order of a particular product but I've yet to order from them.
I'll probably make an order with Zooplus soon, I was just hoping I could find some in bulk a bit cheaper I want some of their hay, anyway :lol: Well not me personally but.. You know what I mean

Jane, do you mind if I bother you with a question? In the mix you used on the thread I linked to earlier (http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...abbits-Now-Have-Instead-of-Pellet-Museli-Feed) I noticed the horse feed contains alfalfa? I didn't think it was suitable for adult bunnies, is it okay in small amounts? I was thinking of ordering the same one but was worried about the alfalfa

Regarding Zooplus, I would only ever buy their lovely hay, as my bunnies don't get any treats, or bought dried forage etc.

Regarding alfalfa, if theres no issue with bladder sludge, my vet would recommend it, but primarily for weight gain.

If there were only a few shreds of alfalfa in it, I would be fine with it, otherwise I tend not to use it