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Cecothrophs pellets and greens questions rabbits

rosaleen

rosaleen

Warren Scout
Hi I’ve kept rabbits for a few years So oI know some things but not others.
A week ago I adopted two sisters, 7 and half years old. . They’re mini or dwarf lops, total weight 3.1k.
Between them they have 18grams of pellets spread through the day, based on 6grams per kilo. i soak the pellets are soaked in water To add….…..
In the morning I’ve started adding panacur paste. In the evening adding Metacam.
One of the two Cole, came with a history of a sticky bum. I’m finding wet cecothrophs in the mornings, usually 7 or 8, a range of quite large clumps, to quite tiny. Checking them today I find the second rabbit Smudge is also getting a sticky bum.
Their previous owner (totally misleadingly it turned out) assured me that bathing Cole would be straightforward as she is laid back.
For me a sticky bum has never been an issue so I was totally unprepared for the reality. Cole is anything but laid back ditto Smudge.
Anyway I trawled through youtube videos which proved very helpful. Comments from others who watched these videos advised…..

1.cutting out greens and 2. cutting down on pellets, to help alleviate the sticky bum problem
are these both good advice??????

I should add that the previous vet in their medical notes Sept 22 recommending Metacam for Cole as she couldn’t seem to groom herself and Oct 23 stated she had a reduced range of movement. However and unfortunately the owner was unable to successfully administer any meds on either occasion. So Im doing it myself, using the Metacam left when my last rabbit recently passed on.
The last update from the previous vet January 24, just received, noted Cole has an additional issue and I’ll be phoning the new rabbit savvy vet in the morning to book her in some time this coming week. In the meantime can anyone please help me with the above?
many many thanks
 
Thanks for your reply and link. Ive looked through it and the advice it gives.
I must be missing something. I dont feed the rabbits any fruit at all though i did add a morsel of banana, and I mean a morsel to add to the wet pellets for 2 doses of panacur to encourage them to eat it. I then stopped.
Im hoping that now Cole is on metacam for her arthritis her ability to clean herself will improve.
currently their diet is 18 grams of pellets. Even if this normally right for their weight should l / could I reduce it as I’d read too many pellets is a factor in a sticky bum. Are too few pellets ok or not?
Secondly the rest of their diet is hay hay and more hay plus readigrass which they love but has a higher calorie count?
Currently I’m not offering any greens or other vegetables at all, but don’t know if this is ok or not.
I offer the cecothrophs I find each morning to them but they show no interest.
i read on your link that they must have the cecothrophs for their digestion If I leave them out they’d be trodden or sat on and increases the likelihood of a sticky bottom. is there a way to ensure they’ll eat them???
i can’t work out if or how there is too much sugar, starch or carbohydrates in their diet. They are not overweight.
 
i forgot to say they’re free range house rabbits, the same as I’ve always had and they only have Timothy hay.
 
I think this would be worthwhile discussing with the vet later in the week. Maybe Cole is unwilling to eat the caecotrophs because of the Arthritis and her reduced range of movement. Maybe the dose of Metacam should be increased to help with mobility.

I've never experienced this problem, but I think in your position I wouldn't feed any pellets. If they are a healthy weight and eat a lot of hay, they will be OK without. If that doesn't help I would also consider not feeding the Readigrass. Don't remove both from their diet together or else you won't know which food helps if there is an improvement.

I wouldn't feed any vegetables until the problem is sorted, but tree leaves should be OK to consider. Again only make one change at a time.

Good luck and I hope the vet visit goes well.
 
Hi thanks very very much for your welcome advice. I’ll take it all on board. This morning I put all their overnight uneaten clumps of cecothrophs on a plate in their feeding area, but not so they’re likely to be trodden on. So now they’re readily available. I will keep offering these directly throughout the day.The quantity is such that itmakes me wonder if some of them are Smudge’s.
Good to know about the vegetables and pellets. Though I need to carry on with the panacur and metacam mixed with soaked pellets but will reduce their quantity as much as possible I’ll be ringing the vet when they open.
A good note I hope; their fecal poops are becoming lighter in colour and more crumbly.
I’ll look into which rabbit safe trees already have their leaves growing.
Thanks again. Your advice is really a great help
 
rosaleen said:
PS I’ll ask the vet about increasing the Metacam and what dosage
Click to expand...
Let us know how they get on. Great news about their fecal poo. Hawthorn is just starting to come into leaf. They could have the new fresh shoots. Also Blackberry leaves are excellent, not a tree, but available most of the year (especially in woods) and really good for digestion as well as teeth.
 
What brand of pellets do you feed ? Burgess Excel can cause uneaten cecotrophs problems for some Rabbits.

Readigrass is very nutrient rich and should only be fed in moderation. It can contribute to mucky bum problems

Does the Rabbit with arthritis have any sign of balding or sore hocks ?

Being on Panacur can disturb the natural balance of bacteria in the cecum and thus the cecotrophs smell and taste ‘wrong’ to the Rabbit and so they won’t eat them. Why are you giving the Panacur ? Is it as a one off 28 day course to try to minimise the risk of EC or has the Vet suggested that ‘active’ EC might be part of the problem ? Or are you using it as a gastrointestinal wormer ?

Whilst there is no definitive evidence that probiotics help to manage cecotrophs problems giving a probiotic won’t do any harm and it might do some good. This is the product I am referring to

Fibreplex for Rabbits - From £8.59

A high fibre paste formulation for rabbits and small pets. Fibreplex for Rabbits provides palatable, easy to administer extra dietary fibre to encourage normal hind gut function. Includes beneficial micro-organisms to rapidly populate the gastrointestinal...
www.vetuk.co.uk www.vetuk.co.uk

I agree with Omi’s comments about diet and about speaking with the Vet about the Metacam doses.

During the previous Vet check did the Vet carry out a dental examination ? Rabbits with Dental problems can find it hard to keep their bum clean.

Finally, I very much doubt the cecotrophs will be eaten if they are left out on a plate. Also, they will be a magnet for flies and this will increase the risks of flystrike. All Rabbits who have a messy bum problem are at high risk of flystrike. So you need to be mindful about that.

rabbitwelfare.co.uk

Flystrike in Rabbits

Creating better tomorrows for all pet rabbits Flystrike in Rabbits What is “Flystrike”? Flystrike is also called ‘myiasis’. It happens when flies lay their eggs on your rabbit, and those eggs hatch out into maggots. Maggots from blowflies: bluebottles and green bottles, are the most dangerous...
rabbitwelfare.co.uk rabbitwelfare.co.uk
 
Sorry I’m late replying, only just picked your post
I always use Burgess Excel. It’s not caused a problem with uneaten cecothrophs before. .
Re having the cecothrophs on a plate which was ONLY for the first time yesterday. I kept offering some of them with my fingers, which worked well with one of my previous rabbits. In addition I took a photo of the plate
1. to see if the amount went down which it appeared to do by about 15% though thats possible shrinkage due to drying
2. to show the photos to the new rabbit savvy vet I’m seeing Thursday morning.
This morning, before reading your post, I found in total about 20% of the amount from the previous day.
The production of cecothrophs has changed. Before they’d be produced overnight This morning to start with there were only two with a very few more later this morning.
I feel this is hopefully a big improvement, due to the changing diet, as advised by Omi wise old thumper and hopefully an early effect of 3 days (so far) of metacam for the previous vet’s diagnosis of likely arthritis.
I’ll certainly take on board about the plate and reducing the readigrass.
re hawthorn I always used to forage for this before and I see that there are buds forming so will start with it again.
brambles. .ditto using before. and I had offered a few of the leaves to Cole and Smudge til reading the advice about stopping all veg. They hadn’t seemed too keen but possible/likely they weren’t used to anything spikey unlike my previous rabbits.
the previous vet noted no dental problem, no spurs or anything
re the panacur. This morning was their fourth dose. I’ve both read and been advised that the 28 course is recommended with new rabbits and there always the risk that there was a very slight risk of spores from before.
Cole has one “ mature cataract” on the previous vet notes.
The sticky bum issue had been noted as an ongoing problem too with these notes.
 
Re the Fibreplex I have some Only partially used. I’ll check on whether it’s still ok like this or not.
thanks very much for all your queries and advice
Please tell me if I’ve missed any of your points or not been clear.

Please, i have one last question……..
currently I give the panacur first thing in the morning 4 doses so far, and the Metacam early evening 3 doses so far
Not sure why I started it like this…
I remember now something about the optimum efficacy of Metacam being 12 hours?
so would it be better to give metacam in the morning at the same time as panacur?
Or even possibly mixed in with the panacur to further reduce the pellet intake?
 
Metacam is usually easy to dose directly from the syringe into the side of the mouth. Many rabbits really like the taste and will willingly come for it. It does need to be given with or after some sort of food. Split doses are something that you need to discuss with your vet. Rabbits do metabolise it faster than other species, so it's often prescribed in higher doses and at 12 hourly intervals - but only your vet can make that decision.

I've always tended to give meds on a morning where it's a single dose, as that's when I can do it most reliably - but that's more my personal preference than any medical need. It gets all the essentials out of the way at the same time, ie water, spot clean, refil hay, etc. at a time when the furries are also used to being handled.
 
Great that the amount of caecotrophs is reduced. Well done :)

I hadn't considered the issue of Burgess Excell before Inspector Morse mentioned it. I completely agree with her. It does cause a problem for some bunnies. It could be that the reason for the improvement is that you are now (I think) only feeding pellets softened with their meds, ie a much small amount. I really think it would be worth trying a different pellet as an experiment. I use Science Selective, just the ordinary one. It would be a really good result if you could establish that it is the Burgess Excell as this is such a simple thing to rectify. If it is, then going forward you could have the option of no pellets or just a very few pellets a day.

Re the brambles, it sometimes takes a few tries to get a rabbit interested in a new food, so I would persevere. Also no vegetables doesn't mean no forage.
 
A big big thank to you both for your welcome input and continuing advice.
re possibly changing the brand of pellets, I’ll see what the cecothrophs situation is like tomorrow morning. They’re going to the new vet the following morning and by then I’ll have an even firmer idea of what the improvements are.

I’m a complete novice cleaning a sticky bum. I tried it once only, 4 days ago. It wasn’t very successful. As I think I’d said before, the previous owner had made it sound very easy and straightforward which it wwasnt at all.
I only realised afterwards that I’d made a lot of mistakes when I then YouTube d the subject So I plan to have a demonstration by the new vet,- that is if the bunnies haven’t managed to clean up themselves by then Yes she hadn’t mentioned the second rabbit having problems either. As a side note she’d also always used Burgess excel.
Yes the pellets are only given for the meds and are always soaked in water and mashed
My question about giving Metacam in the morning was really that Cole is active during the day and evening and not really overnight, so administrating it in the evening wouldn’t be as beneficial.
Even if there is or isn’t any further improvement I’ll get some science selective and gradually introduce it to be completely on. the safe side.
Your advice to persevere with the brambles is welcome. My other rabbits always loved it.
I’ll change the Metacam dosing to the morning too. Though I’ll mix it in with the panacur, reducing the pellet intake further, rather than syringe feeding. I think I’d be likely to lose half the dose dribbling down their chin, given my previous experience with syringe feeding.

I can’t thank you enough and will give you updates on theirs and my progress.
 
Sounds like you've got a good plan. Just a brief mention about giving Metacam. As others have said, rabbits adore the taste of this as it's so sweet. One of my previous rabbits even used to try to lick it out of her partner's mouth after it had been syringed. I often don't have complete success with syringe-feeding recovery food, but with Metacam it's much easier. It's a small syringe, which it's possible to administer by entering at the side of the rabbit's mouth, where you will see a small gap between the teeth where the syringe will fit in.

Will look forward to your updates.
 
Thanks for your info on Metacam. Cole isn’t keen on being handled at all by myself - yet.
But I’m slowly working towards her acceptance of me. Not so easy as I can’t tempt/bribe her with pellets.

There is such improvement in the state of their cecothrophs, i wanted / needed to hold her to check her bum (copying what I’d seen on You tube) as this morning there were only a very few, very tiny cecothrophs. I normally found them on the big mat in front of their large bedding/feeding dog bed. But as there were so very few of them i needed to be sure I wasn’t kidding myself and so hunted through their hay, discovering a small, very wet and sticky clump. However
almost at the very same time I saw Smudge sitting right by where I’d picked up the clump, bending over her bum and I assume/hope eating her cecothrophs. So likely/hopefully the clump id found was hers that she’d just deposited?
Checking Cole s bum, it looks in a much better state than after I’d attempted so badly to clean her a few days ago. I simply had to remove two dry left over bits by carefully cutting them off her fur. Im really really pleased that she is/seems to be cleaning herself.
Around her tail now looks like dandruff. So I’ll ask the new vet about that. it is quite different from when the previous owner showed me 12 days ago. Then it looked as though the tail fur had been trimmed back, no sign of ’dandruff’

The vet notes confirmed that they had cleaned and clipped both rabbits 5th Feb (when both rabbits were vaccinated as agreed with the animal welfare stipulation).
I’ve just to check Smudge s bum (currently they’re both under the sofa) Having tried to do a bum check before, I totally agree with the vet’s comment that she is “very wriggly” ! So we’ll see ..
 
rosaleen said:
Thanks for your info on Metacam. Cole isn’t keen on being handled at all by myself - yet.
But I’m slowly working towards her acceptance of me. Not so easy as I can’t tempt/bribe her with pellets.

There is such improvement in the state of their cecothrophs, i wanted / needed to hold her to check her bum (copying what I’d seen on You tube) as this morning there were only a very few, very tiny cecothrophs. I normally found them on the big mat in front of their large bedding/feeding dog bed. But as there were so very few of them i needed to be sure I wasn’t kidding myself and so hunted through their hay, discovering a small, very wet and sticky clump. However
almost at the very same time I saw Smudge sitting right by where I’d picked up the clump, bending over her bum and I assume/hope eating her cecothrophs. So likely/hopefully the clump id found was hers that she’d just deposited?
Checking Cole s bum, it looks in a much better state than after I’d attempted so badly to clean her a few days ago. I simply had to remove two dry left over bits by carefully cutting them off her fur. Im really really pleased that she is/seems to be cleaning herself.
Around her tail now looks like dandruff. So I’ll ask the new vet about that. it is quite different from when the previous owner showed me 12 days ago. Then it looked as though the tail fur had been trimmed back, no sign of ’dandruff’

The vet notes confirmed that they had cleaned and clipped both rabbits 5th Feb (when both rabbits were vaccinated as agreed with the animal welfare stipulation).
I’ve just to check Smudge s bum (currently they’re both under the sofa) Having tried to do a bum check before, I totally agree with the vet’s comment that she is “very wriggly” ! So we’ll see ..
Click to expand...

The ‘dandruff’ around her tail could be a sign of cheyletiella mites. These often occur when a Rabbit has not been grooming themselves.

www.veterinary-practice.com

Diagnosing and treating cheyletiellosis

Cheyletiellosis is a skin disease caused by infestation with Cheyletiella mites. There are five species, which are predominantly host specific, although cross infestation may occur: Rabbits: Cheyletiella parasitovorax (Mégnin, 1878) and Cheyletiella firmani (Smiley, 1970) Cats: Cheyletiella...
www.veterinary-practice.com www.veterinary-practice.com
 
Thanks for your info on the mites. I’ll mention it to the vet this morning along with a list of other things!

Ive another question if you don’t mind. The rabbits came with accessories /toys including a plastic tube used by Smudge.Found her yesterday chewing some of it into small bits and it seemed evident from the stage of the tube that this was not the first time. Went and bought a new tube, (along with science selective hay as you’d recommended their brand of pellets). Both rabbits then had a good chew of the new tube, but wary of their having the wrong ‘food’ in their diet, checked the packaging, the brand name is Rosewood, and made “from safe vegetable parchment “ . Sounds a lot like cardboard of which I’ve read varying positive and negative opinions.
As an experienced rabbit owner do you have any knowledge of it please?
Many thanks, yet again!
 
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