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Cecothrophs pellets and greens questions rabbits

rosaleen said:
Thanks for your info on the mites. I’ll mention it to the vet this morning along with a list of other things!

Ive another question if you don’t mind. The rabbits came with accessories /toys including a plastic tube used by Smudge.Found her yesterday chewing some of it into small bits and it seemed evident from the stage of the tube that this was not the first time. Went and bought a new tube, (along with science selective hay as you’d recommended their brand of pellets). Both rabbits then had a good chew of the new tube, but wary of their having the wrong ‘food’ in their diet, checked the packaging, the brand name is Rosewood, and made “from safe vegetable parchment “ . Sounds a lot like cardboard of which I’ve read varying positive and negative opinions.
As an experienced rabbit owner do you have any knowledge of it please?
Many thanks, yet again!
Click to expand...

Is the tube like this ?

Rosewood Boredom Breaker Chew Tube | Pets At Home

<li>Made from cellulose fibre</li><li>Thick tubes</li><li>Small pets love tunnels</li> is available to buy online at Pets at Home, the UK's largest pet shop with fast delivery and low prices
www.petsathome.com www.petsathome.com

Personally I don’t give my Rabbits any chew toys like that. My Rabbits have apple tree twigs, grass mats, willow balls.

I buy my Rabbit food, hays and treat supplies from these outlets

littlehayco.com

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https://www.bunnybistro.co.uk/

www.naturesgrub.co.uk

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just4rabbits.uk

Timothy Hay, Forage & Enrichment For Rabbits - Just4rabbits

Natural Healthy Forage, Timothy Hay, Enrichment Toys, Rabbit Subscription Boxes From The UK's No.1 Rabbit Enrichment Specialists - just4rabbits
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I wouldn't give cardboard to chewers. If they like using tunnels, try looking at cat versions, plastic ones or drainage pipe offcuts of a suitable diameter for your rabbits.

For chewing, there are lots of things you can do. There are other threads on here with ideas. Willow will soon be in leaf - the twigs and leaves are all suitable for turning into enrichment items eg poke into mesh, hang from the top of a hutch / run. Hay can be similarly placed in different items at different heights.
 
Hi thanks for the info on tubes ill look into your suggestions
saw the vet earlier today. I’ll do a proper long update shortly but ive an immediate question about panacur.
the vet was querying my 28 day course, advising me it’s possible that panacur may affect their immune systems.
(particularly older rabbits I think he said)
i intend to carry on regardless having seen the effects of e.coli but I asked if it would be ok to reduce the under 2.5 dosage as the rabbit are 1.4 and 1,7. And yes it would be ok.
I’ve seen posts on here before recommending the oral solution which I’ll now try, which i believe can accurately adminster the exact right dose for the weight?
Have I got this right please? And is itok to switch from paste to liquid after 6 days, well 8-9 days when it comes through the post. And what is the shelf life for the liquid?
so many questions I know, but hope you can help …..yet again
 
Sorry I went straight past WOT. I’ve never used a tube before but Smudge used the plastic one a lot before I threw it in the bin.
Your post seems to have vanished though………I’ll try to find it. From what i remember you said, yes Ive always given apple twigs leaves and branches before. but these two are having problems just getting the hang of small tiny hawthorn twigs (theyve got buds on them which they do like)let alone anything bigger
 
rosaleen said:
Hi thanks for the info on tubes ill look into your suggestions
saw the vet earlier today. I’ll do a proper long update shortly but ive an immediate question about panacur.
the vet was querying my 28 day course, advising me it’s possible that panacur may affect their immune systems.
(particularly older rabbits I think he said)
i intend to carry on regardless having seen the effects of e.coli but I asked if it would be ok to reduce the under 2.5 dosage as the rabbit are 1.4 and 1,7. And yes it would be ok.
I’ve seen posts on here before recommending the oral solution which I’ll now try, which i believe can accurately adminster the exact right dose for the weight?
Have I got this right please? And is itok to switch from paste to liquid after 6 days, well 8-9 days when it comes through the post. And what is the shelf life for the liquid?
so many questions I know, but hope you can help …..yet again
Click to expand...

The RWAF Veterinary Advisor, an Exotics Specialist Vet, recommends that new intake Rabbits have a 28 day course of Panacur.

The current opinion amongst Rabbit Specialist Vets is that the risk of EC,(Encephalitozoon Cuniculi, not as you posted E Coli, which is a completely different disease) is far greater than the risk of Fenbendazole having a negative affect on bone marrow production, thus impacting on the immune system.

It is OK to switch from Panacur paste to Panacur 10% liquid. It is much easier to get a weight specific dose using the liquid which is 0.2ml/kg/day.

The liquid can be used up until the EXP date on the bottle as long as the bottle is stored in the outer box out of direct sunshine. It should not be refrigerated or frozen.
 
Thanks for your replies. All very helpful
The tube is the one on your link.
I’ll order the liquid panacur now.
id definitely decided to carry on with 28 days. As I said I’ve seen awful effects of EC
 
Hi. update on the rabbits. Well there was confusion at first cos they’d only been booked in Cole.
The rabbit savvy vet said the eye with the mature cataract (“possibly due to E.Cuniculi”)had pus in the eyeball (which the previous vet had question marked as an abscess), and I was to keep checking(he showed me how) it to see if it worsened. But it is ok at the minute
Both of Cole’s ears have some swelling. He demonstrated how i was to check to see if they became worse.
Cole’s teeth had spurring on both lower. I think he said it affected her cheek? (whereas the previous vet had said there were no spurs the last time he examined her only 3 weeks ago.
There was a tiny amount of dried cecothrophs which he cleaned. I’d actually found a little on her fur the day before which I cut off with scissors. If her skin became sore I could use sudacreme.
He recomended upping the Metacam to twice a day advising me to bring Cole in again once she’s settled in with me as I’ve only had them for 11 days, and with her meds; 3-6 months unless I saw anything amiss beforehand. Treatment will be needed for the dental and ear issues for Cole at least. The eye may remain as it is, but if it worsens the eyeball may have to be removed. This would involve a longer period under anaesthetic.
As all this took a good while he only had time to check Smudges ears, my main concern, as the pre owner had been told she a had a buildup of wax in the right ear.The new vet concurred but said it wasn’t of great concern at present.
 
Hi, regarding the vet visit, upping the Metacam to twice a day is a good idea. Hopefully this will help with mobility, which could also help with the caecotrophs issue. Is it not possible to treat the pus in the eye? Did he say what was causing the swelling in her ears? And is the plan to wait for a few months before sorting out the spurs and her ears?
 
If the spurs are already affecting soft tissue they need treatment now, not in a few weeks. It’s far better to get the problem sorted out before the Rabbit stops eating as the GA risk is greater if the Rabbit is already anorexic and recovery can take much longer.


exoticsvets.com

Dental Disease – Spurs

We don’t mean kicking your spurs – this aint no barn dance! Though lots of hay would solve this problem!
exoticsvets.com exoticsvets.com



Re the ears, if there is active infection causing the ‘swelling’ this needs attention straight away too. Ear infection in Rabbits can be problematic and treatment can involve surgery




It sounds as though the eye problem is probably EC induced phacoclastic uveitis

Encephalitozoon cuniculi associated Phacoclastic Uveitis | Arizona Exotics | -Rabbits Resources

E. cuniculi-associated phacoclastic uveitis is a recognized disease in rabbits, particularly dwarf rabbits. There is no sex predilection and the condition is often seen in younger rabbits. The lesion occurs after rupture of the lens capsule releases lens protein into the anterior chamber, which...
azeah.com azeah.com


Is the Vet you consulted ‘Rabbit Savvy’ ?

rabbitwelfare.co.uk

Recommended Rabbit-Friendly Vets

Find recommended rabbit-friendly vets near you. Explore our directory for expert care and support for your furry friend. Ensure the best healthcare for your rabbit
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Hi yes the vet is rabbit savvy, id said before the RWA list of recommended vets has silver and gold standar. His is the only one out 10 of the nearest, and not so near, recommended vets to me who is gold standard
The vet has said it will involve x rays and surgery for the dental spurs and attending to the ears The estimate is £700.
If the necessary treatment for any of the issues I listed before was immediate I’m confident he’d have said.
Future treatment of the eye is a separate issue And would involve a longer surgery and a separate new bill

His advice was to see how things go with Cole for 3-6 months(though he was leaning towards the 3.
In retrospect I feel he was only going up to the 6 in response to being prompted by me first asking how long to wait,suggesting (hopefully) 6 months before I’d have to deal with this Problem.It was then he gave me his more realistic time frame. This was, he said, to give both rabbits time to settle in with me and see how effective the meds are.
I’d told him I’ve only had the rabbits for 11 days. I’m sure he was conscious of this when he said about them settling in with me was as much as me settling in (and bonding)with them.
Having just spent a restless night worried about the cost I do feel I need to see him earlier. Still trying to work it all my head.
 
It’s great that the Vet is Rabbit Savvy 😀 I am sure he will be very happy to have further discussions about treatments if you feel the need for additional reassurance at any time. I would just remain vigilant of the Rabbit’s poo output as well as what they eat. Poor poo output is a good early warning sign that the GI tract motility is not as it should be, even if the Rabbit is still eating. Another useful thing to do to monitor health is to weigh your Rabbits once or twice a week. A set of digital baby scales is a worthwhile investment. You don’t need to spend a fortune

baby scales for sale | eBay

Find great deals on eBay for baby scales. Shop with confidence.
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It's great that your vet is Gold Standard. I think in that case you can be very confident that he would have said if the treatment was urgent. I agree with IM, I would monitor the situation carefully for now. One of my past rabbits, a Rex called Tethra, had spurs noted at each vet examination for possibly the last 3 or 4 years of his life. They never caused any symptoms and he never had a dental. I think that whereas some rabbits will be unable to tolerate the tiniest of spurs, some will manage perfectly OK. Both your rabbits are eating a lot of hay as well which will help enormously. It's also sensible not to rush into giving a GA to a rabbit if it could be avoided.

Your rescue rabbits seem to have arrived with a lot of issues. My advice would be to manage the ones you are able to do easily, such as their diet and caecotrophs problem and monitor the rest carefully. With careful monitoring you will be able to detect if Cole is upset by the spurs. In that case your vet would probably be able to offer a payment by instalment plan to allow the treatment to go ahead.
 
Thanks to both of you for you posts. I’ve been ‘off the grid’ all day as I’ve tried to deal with my growing anxiety about the costs which I can ill afford.
Later lI’ll do a post at length responding to the details of your advice and information especially about GA,

But currently I’m focusing on constructing a hopefully persuasive email to the previous owner.Not an easy task.
I want to put forward a case to see if she’ll contribute to the costs. She has after all had her two bunnies for seven and a half years, while I’ve had them for less than two weeks. She leaves for Australia on 10th March.
In the meantime thanks for the info on payment by instalment plan. I hadn’t thought of that.
 
when the vet examined the spurs he noted that it was affecting her cheek, so presumably catching on it. And that’s why he felt it necessary to attend to them. I got a copy of his medical history primarily to send to the previous owner as part of my email to her about what’s happening with Cole. The MH the problem with her ears as waxy and swelling and stable atm. The MH wording uses ‘suggest’ re the time frame on all 3 issues not a must …………..
A previous really good vet( who unfortunately moved away) noted over her 5 years consults of a previous rabbit, BeBe, that there were spurs but it wasn’t a problem as they were small. The same for you with Rex.
The new vet also said how well Coles sticky problem had improved (referring to the previous owner’s vet MH continuing notes on this subject!) I explained how much help and advice on diet I’d been given through Rabbit Forum. He was pleased to hear this and noted it in hisMH
I have been keeping a very careful on her poos since your recommended changes in her diet. And today for the first timefound this morning NO cecothrophs whatsoever!Their production was going down little by little, day by day, but it hit a minor temporary setback as the then small amount of cecothrophs went up slightly, (I was taking snapshots each morning) seemingly at the same time as I introduced a very few brambles 2-3leaves hawthorn twigswith buds,recommended here. Thankfully it was I hope a one off. I’m keen on increasing slowly these and other forage treats. My rabbits before have always loved them, I’ll be checking her bum at regular intervals

the fecal poos continue to become lighter and dryer. I give a mix of 3 different Timothy hay sprinkled with a very small amount of their apparent favourite, Readigrass (which you’d advised about) As they are in the living room I’m able to monitor their eating and movement well I think. Cole appears to run a lot more, and has a more relaxed lying down position I’m not 100% sure as every time I go near to look more closely shes alerted and lifts her head but appears to be bending over to her anus.
I’ve always been vigilant about checking for poor poo production having had one rabbit with recurring GS
re the mites possibility that was suggested when the vet examined her in there was no sign at all of any dandruff.
 
Re my first paragraph. The vet MH saying “suggests. ……..

sorry this was wrong for ears.
Th MH listed the details of his ear examination and then noted

“ear based changes> no overt discomfort but would need close monitoring
consider skull rads.”
The vet did carefully demonstrate to how to check for changes at the base of the ears for the swelling and which I did with him checkimg to see that I was doing it the way he’d demonstrated, and said id need to keep it.
Even if I don’t detect any increase in the swelling i will take Cole in again for a further consult anyway, still decidimg what time frame
 
Edit
I’d need to keep doing it
the “consider skull rads“ was at the end of his MH
so it’s it’s unclear if this consideration was omly for the ears or more likely for all three issues. Ears teeth and eye.
 
rosaleen said:
Edit
I’d need to keep doing it
the “consider skull rads“ was at the end of his MH
so it’s it’s unclear if this consideration was omly for the ears or more likely for all three issues. Ears teeth and eye.
Click to expand...

A skull X-ray would cover all three
 
My thoughts on your update from the vet.
Teeth spurs - If the vet noted that they were affecting her cheek, then it's likely to be only a matter of time before she finds them uncomfortable, which could lead to her not eating or eating less well. It does seem then that they will need doing sooner rather than later.
Ears and eyes - it sounds as though treatment for these is not urgent, but both need observation.
When considering cost, it's good to separate them out like this, otherwise the overall estimate of £700 seems justifiably overwhelming. I would therefore consider having the skull xrays done first, together, if funds allow, the spurs. This plan would give you details of what you are dealing with in respect of all three issues, plus it would treat the spurs at the same time, which would prevent it having to be done as an emergency after she had possibly stopped eating first. You could then have a discussion with the vet about the xray findings, in particular what needs to be done for ears and eyes, an estimate of when, plus an idea of cost. I would also not be afraid to ask for a payment plan, which is entirely reasonable under the circumstances.
Also don't make light of the fact that already you seem to have got on top of the issue of caecotrophs. This will be a huge benefit to their health, plus it makes caring for them much easier. You should, I think, be really pleased with yourself that this has had such a positive result. Lots of people ask for advice on this forum, but not everyone follows that advice. So well done!
I also just wanted to add about Timothy hay. If both of your bunnies are good hay eaters, then to save on cost I would just offer one type that you know they will eat. Offering three types is really spoiling them, but probably not necessary, as I imagine it works out quite expensive. I use this company for timothy hay and all of my bunnies have liked their normal timothy. https://www.timothyhay.co.uk/
Have you noticed whether Cole is finding grooming any easier with her Metacam?
 
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