Could we please have........U/D 14th Feb observations

[Craig 1965]

Observations live from the kitchen here. Have just opened up Leo for his first mornings look at the world here (not let him out) and let Lillian out for her breakfast run. She hasn't shown any realy zest to go straight outside although when she does go out, it's usually a quick run up to the grass, 20 minuts nomming and back in again. Not today!
No, today she was like "open the door will you - I want to go and see Leo". And it was as clear and evident as this. This demonstrates to me that rabbits have a developed memory and awareness of significant things that effect them. Lillian remembered Leo from yesterday and not only that, she had awareness of belief that he was still there.
It didn't look much as though Leo had spent the night in his bedding area - but I suspect he's been up wooing the soft toy all night - which he continued to 'harrass' when I opened up the hutch to the world here. So his hormonses are definately raging and there's no way I can do any introduction just yet. Either that or they didn't yank his plums off!!
The very significant observations are that when Lillian felt ready to bond to Henry, she sat, patiently and expectantly outside his cage - which took a few weeks of various strategies. Once Lillian had accepted Henry and was relaxed about it, the bond and introductions went ok.
This morning, Lillian went straight over to Leo's door, and just sat there - she's still parked there now. She's nosing through the bar, picking out stray bits of hay and straw to eat through the bars. She keeps running to the side of the hutch to see if there's another way it, and Leo inside, follows. So they share an awareness and predictiveness.
There's no bar biting that I can see - Leo is pre occupied with floofy soft toy but noses up to the door and they spend some moments just sitting nose to nse smelling each other. I don't se any aggressive stance from either bunny - Lillians tail is relaxed and she just seems to show as excited/curious/inquisitive. Leo is taking it all in his stride - which is good as far as I know, and is also not showing any sign of aggression/bar biting or anything like that. He wants to come out and once Lillian is in. I'll let him have a roam and see what he thinks of the new surroundings. But Lillian is just so reluctant to leave the area around Leo's hutch. Most odd.
Laters plus video of Leo exploring....

 

[Zoobec]

I’m glad he is settling in well and that early signs seem positive during the pre bonding meetings. I would agree with a Omi in that usual advice is to wait for 6 weeks post neutering for hormones to subside. Especially in this case, he is likely to be very hormonal having been entire for so long.

 

[Pets mum]

such a lovely update. Yes I firmly believe all animals have a memory, why else would Treacle be climbing up my leg every morning, she's after her slice of nana :lol: can't wait to see Leo exploring the garden

 

[keletkezes]

Memory is definitely a thing even the most moronic of bunnies manage Lopsy's very low in the IQ stakes but remembers things; he just gets distracted while doing them! We've not had a bunny yet who didn't remember (eventually..!) that they need to go into the playhouse for pellets They also remember that gardening gloves = food.

 

[Cuthbert&Dillon]

Lovely update so glad Lillian is happy.

 

[bunny momma]

I am so happy that Lillian and Leo are already bonding. I know Lillian misses Henry, just as you do, yet she knows that Leo needs a friend too. Perhaps she is telling him all about Henry and the big hocks he has to fill.

 

[tulsi]

Great and wonderfully detailed update.

 

[Craig 1965]

Ok everybun. Big day today. Leo had his first exploration of our garden. This is the first footage....
[video]https://studio.youtube.com/video/LLJ4J59_22Y/edit[/video]

Apologies for the state of the patio and area. Haven't had time to go to the dump yet. I know that the 'entertainment' on the garden is sparse and not up to scratch. The tunnel is an old guinea pig tunnel that we never used and the log bridge again, is a throwback to guinea pigs we used to keep (hint - the old guine pig hutch is where the stuff for the dump is). So the lawn isn't really an assault course for the bunnies - more of an outside exploration.
Second video of Leo is

Now, this is where the wheels started to come off. As you can observe (and hear) Lillian's posture is all wrong and she was pulling the wire on the frame to try to gain access. I did not feel comfortable with this - and as i'll explain, this puzzles me. Leo by the way, remained non aggressive.
Third video - when Leo found the lawn...

Looks excited doesn't he? Now, observing Leo, I have some thoughts - which I would like to ask for any opinions of please.
Leo to me, doesn't seem to have much if any muscle mass or tone. His general movement doesn't seem as athletic as perhaps it could be? Or am I just used to the rocket that was Henry? When I stroke Leo, he doesn't feel as tho he has much mass or tone. So in my opinion, Leo has not had much exercise or access to large run space. He was kept in superb accommodation at the foster carers at Blue Cross and was very well looked after. But I feel that he may have had smaller accommodation at his last owner. I don't think there was neglegt as such, because Leo loves hoomans. He follows me all over the garden. He relies on me being there - that's a confidence thing, but he certainly is close to hoomans and loves hooman attention, especially strokes and nose rubs and brushing. I just feel he should be more athletic. Hopefully if things work out, we can build up his tone.
Leo has a very friendly personality but I do feel for him because it's a lot of upheaval for him. He has alot to adjust to and take in and he must be confused inside as to what is happening. His hormones are certainly raging inside and there's no way I can even attempt to make any introductions until the end of February (6 weeks after his neuter). he loves running circles round my feet - but there's no grunting although I know circling is an affection display. For him, it seems like a game and he does figure of 8's between my legs as I walk. It's a good way to get him doing exercise.
Time for video 4....

Leo's tail is quite whispy and although he's recorded as 4 years, 9 months, I can't help but feel that he he presents at times, like a rabbit half that age. His fur doesn't feel dense - I think he has just gone through a moult but his fur is quite fine and I'm not sure why that would be in winter.
Final video for now....

I like this short clip - I like the way Lwo has explored behind some triffids and is also tuning into the sounds and awareness of the garden.
I feel bad locking him in at tea time when it gets dark - he's got 15 hours in the hutch in the dark and although there's plenty of straw and hay and cover, I just wish he could be here with us because of his attachement with hoomans. But we can't do this at the moment and so Leo is going to have to spend his days and nights outside - which saddens me.
I am also harbouring concerns about the bond based on how Lillian demonstrated this morning, although she has happily sat right in front of Leo's hutch when he was in it this afternoon. She doesn't bite the metal frame and she sat and licked the box to the right compartment (where Leo goes to the toilet) so she must be getting a scent from that. So Lillians behaviour is different going to the hutch, than it is with Leo coming to the house.
Being honest, and deep down, I still hurt deeply for Henry and it's very hard finding a way to move on. So that generates anxiety within me to bond Lillian and Leo. I know it is best for Lillian and her wellbeing as she needs the companionship and support from a rabbit. Like me, she is hurting and missing Henry and can't understand why.
Hope you enjoy the footage and I'll post more tomorrow - and I've also sorted the problem with video 3 from yesterday.
Craig x

 

[mikek]

LOL, ace vids (although I couldn't access the first one.)
gotta love Queen Bee Lillian & Leo looks very happy

 

[Craig 1965]

LOL, ace vids (although I couldn't access the first one.)
gotta love Queen Bee Lillian & Leo looks very happy

Hmm - I'm still learning how to do this you tube stuff - I can access it so I'll see if I've not ticked something that needs ticking.

 

[kattymieoww]

Looks like he's enjoying the garden.

 

[nap91]

Lovely videos

Leo is just gorgeous! He reminds me of our first bun, Biscuit
To me it looks like Lillian is territorial when he goes near the house, females are often like that, I don't think it's anything to worry about at this stage.

 

[Craig 1965]

Lovely videos

Leo is just gorgeous! He reminds me of our first bun, Biscuit
To me it looks like Lillian is territorial when he goes near the house, females are often like that, I don't think it's anything to worry about at this stage.

Thank you so much for that Nap91. That was one of the things I had considered - but for you to reinforce that, it is most extremely helpful.
CRaig

 

[Omi]

I would say that how two rabbits interact when there is a barrier between them is no indication of how they will react when the barrier is removed. So for me I would trust neither the positive signs nor the negative ones. I agree with nap91, it is entirely predictable that Lillian will be territorial, which in my view is why she has displayed the behaviour from inside the house. She will be protective of what she sees is her space.

He's a very friendly chap isn't he Your going to have your work cut out with grooming him I think to ensure that his fur doesn't get matted. I don't observe any problem with his movement. He's not going to move quickly around a garden which is unknown to him, although when he wanted to, it seemed he could move quickly enough.

It's nice to have the videos to be able to look back on

 

[Motty]

Thank you for posting the videos, it is interesting to see Lillian's different reactions to Leo being in the hutch and near the house.
With the videos you have taken, you will be able to monitor Leo's movement to see if he improves with all the freedom you are now offering him.
Did by he go back to the hutch himself, or did you need to encourage him?
Richard

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Zoobec]

I would say that how two rabbits interact when there is a barrier between them is no indication of how they will react when the barrier is removed. So for me I would trust neither the positive signs nor the negative ones. I agree with nap91, it is entirely predictable that Lillian will be territorial, which in my view is why she has displayed the behaviour from inside the house. She will be protective of what she sees is her space.

He's a very friendly chap isn't he Your going to have your work cut out with grooming him I think to ensure that his fur doesn't get matted. I don't observe any problem with his movement. He's not going to move quickly around a garden which is unknown to him, although when he wanted to, it seemed he could move quickly enough.

It's nice to have the videos to be able to look back on

Absolutely this :wave:

 

[joey&boo]

He moves well to me but that might say more about my bunnies than yours. he looks like he has relatively small legs. Seeing Lillian & Leo at the patio doors you can get a feel for what bond might look like. I do agree with Omi that between bars behaviour isn't really indicative of much - not in a predictive sense anyway

 

[Rhianna]

Leo was really enjoying garden time and I agree with you, it does seem sad that he has to spend so much time shut in his hutch. I have a single bunny living in my kitchen at the moment and I feel sad about that too but have to wait until I have some annual leave to be able to start bonding. Your patio and garden don't seem messy at all to me (but my garden is a jungle) and look like bunny heaven. I wish I could let my buns free range but I would never be able to catch them. Did you get Leo back in the hutch easily?

Although you can't bond the buns until Leo's hormones settle down I think Lillian is benefiting from having bunny company. You are an awesome Bunny Carer putting her needs before your own - I know that for you it was really too soon to have another bun in your life.

Leo looks like he is happy and content with you and is eager to explore. He's a lucky bun to have such a good home.

 

[Cuthbert&Dillon]

Lovely videos, like others I can not see the first video. Leo really does like hoomans doesnt he

 

[tonibun]

This behaviour between Lillian and Leo where she is in the house is normal when one rabbit is loose and the other isn't. I noticed Lillian's tail was up in an aggressive manner which is normal again as when 2 rabbits meet for the first time they have to sort out their position in the hierarchy. It's always more difficult when you bring a boy back into a girl's territory. I also agree with Omi re Leo's movements. When he feels more at home he will start to binky but atm he is a little wary. As far as Lillian is concerned, she sees a strange rabbit in her garden and most rabbits will attack the newcomer as territory is very important.