Breeders vs. Bad owners

[rabshan]

breeders

This is a very interesting topic....I for one would like to see the profile of rabbits raised from that of childrens pet to companion animal...having been on the receiving end of ex-breeders bunnies I can say that it is non stop...you go to take one but end up getting six as they just want to get rid of them b/c they are now too old for breeding purposes....so you take 6 & then they breed lots more & are calling you again asking can you take another one or two..I should point out that these are "pet shop" breeders who raise litters solely for that purpose to sell in pet shops not show. I would like to see an end to this trade in lives....rabbits are NOT cheap disposable pets.

 

[bunnylove]

The law should be changed to stop buns being sold in pet shops - you wouldn't buy a cat of dog from one, and the responsibility is just the same!

Rant over! :lol:

people do and can buy cats and dogs from pet shops :?

 

[Delphinum]

Can I just say that just because a breeder 'hones' the breed to a standard, it doesn't mean that 'bad genes' don't pop up! I have 2 sables from a breeder (he thought he'd do them as a 'sideline' to his usual rexes, which he likes to dump or neck after a year - why? because rexes are bred with little hair on the pads of their feet and when that wears away after a year or so, they no longer can be shown). The sables are related, but not siblings or anything... BOTH have back teeth problems!
I totally disagree with breeding for human pleasure, animals are there to be respected and cared for/about... not treated like something on a production line.
Though, if these ignorant people wouldn't go off and buy a rabbit for their children, then the demand wouldn't be there. I almost cried at my local paper this week with the amount of backyard-bred bunnies for sale in it... e.g. "2 rabbits, hutch and accessories. £10 the lot" What kind of message is that giving to people?! :x These are just throw-away pets for most...
No-one is perfect, circumstances change, etc, so rescues will always have bunnies in them, but people should be educated about these things beforehand, instead they're told by people like Tesco that rabbits only live for 2 years and they're suitable for small children. :roll:

 

[rabshan]

breeders

Thats exactly how I feel.....I got my ruby (dutch girl) from a breeder who shows, they were giving up on dutch as they found the competion too tough & wanted rid of her (she was going to be knocked on the head)I think they would be surprised to know that she is still with me after 12 years, this is the woman that told me that french lops only live for 18months. They bred to show & the ones that didn,t make the grade ended up in pet shops or were advertised in loot & sold for a fiver with no home checks :?: :?: . I wonder if it is possible to have a contract (much as you do when you adopt) which you sign & have to abide by when purchasing a bunny from any source then at least if it was dumped it could be traced back to the owner & perhaps charges brought against them. :?: :?:

 

[Denny]

im with you here beckey we shoers have to breed to get better stock you cant by a good show rabbit you have to bbreed it

Hi Kim

I am alittle confused by your postings since you joined RU :? :? If I am reading your replies to other topics correctly, you started with 1 bunny, Peach' about a month ago to now having 4/6 bunnies, is this right :? :?:

you have stated in another topic while looking for another rabbit to bond with Peach that you think a short haired bunny would be easier for you as you also have four children to look after as well and so you are looking for a new home for Peach :? :? From what I gather, you feel that you do not have the experience to bond Peach and feel it is unfair for her to be an only bun :? :?

Can I ask why, after reading these other posts you feel that you wish to breed, and as you have said, you would be willing to keep any buns that did not find homes for, unyet, you feel you cannot cope with 1 long haired bun and 4 children :? :? :?:

I do feel, under the circumstances that your quote above is a bit hypacritical considering you have no experience of breeding from what I gather, and yet you feel you have to breed the perfect show rabbit :? :? If you cannot buy a good show rabbit then what are all these rabbits at shows particpating for if they are not show standard :?:

If you buy from a reputable good breeder like Bex then you will have the perfect markings so why breed :?:

I think you should do alot more research into this as there are plenty of breeders out there who are offering free homes to surplus stock as they cannot find homes for them and have limited space to start trying to breed the next perfect rabbit you have stated on another topic that you dont know how someone could get rid of their rabbit but altimately, if you cannot rehome and you end up with 12, possibly more over the years will you be able to cope with that :?: do you have the space, the finance for vet bills, the time :?: I have 2 children so could imagine what 4 is like on the finances :wink:

Did you buy your last 2 buns from breeders at rabbits shows :?: If showing is what you wish to do then perhaps look for the rabbit that is show quality rather than attempt to breed one .

You have stated that you feel it is unfair to keep Peach as a single bun, if you breed rabbits for show then you will know that they cannot be neutured or speyed so ultimately, what you breed, especially boy buns will have to live a life of solitary confinement

hopefully this will explain why I am confused by your postings

 

[taylor v 109]

Interresting topic that never gets us anywere, i can only speak for myself, i breed to show and take in rescues for rehoming.I breed dwarf lops and mini lops, none of witch end up anywere near a pet shop.I put a great deal of effert into my rabbits to produce friendly rabbits of good type. No show breeder would breed a rabbit with teeth problems as they would not be showable. Some of my babys that do end up going for pets are sold under the condition that they come to me if for any reason they cannot be kept, and i know a great many breeders do this.Because of the handling my rabbits get at a young age they will always make fantastic pets unlike the rabbits breed purly for profit,to make any money out of rabbits u would have to cut corners and the resulting rabbits are not raised properly, and do not make good pets so are far more likly to end up in rescues because they cannot be handled.Over three quarters of the rabbits that i take in are cross breed rabbits.These are breed to make money not bred by responsable breeders.The pure breed rabbits also tend to be breed for money by amitures, the resulting rabbits are nothing like they should be in type, these are the people that are breeding whotever they can get there hands on to make money without thinking or knowing the rabbits hisory,therefore many are born with problems such as bad teeth.Unless u know the history of a rabbit u can easily breed in such things. People who show are very responable in the main and want to breed the best they can, and that means breeding happy heathy rabbits good enough to show.Iwould just like to ad that i have had a lot of people having to give up there rabbits when moveing because they are moving in to privet rented accomadation and the landlords are not letting them have pets, it seems to be the thing now as ive come across this many times. What would help the situation is people being more informed on how to look after their pets.Mant people are just so iggnorant on the subject and its too easy to go out and buy a pet.This applies to all pets not just rabbits. val

 

[Wabbit]

Interresting topic that never gets us anywere, i can only speak for myself, i breed to show and take in rescues for rehoming.I breed dwarf lops and mini lops, none of witch end up anywere near a pet shop.I put a great deal of effert into my rabbits to produce friendly rabbits of good type. No show breeder would breed a rabbit with teeth problems as they would not be showable. Some of my babys that do end up going for pets are sold under the condition that they come to me if for any reason they cannot be kept, and i know a great many breeders do this.Because of the handling my rabbits get at a young age they will always make fantastic pets unlike the rabbits breed purly for profit,to make any money out of rabbits u would have to cut corners and the resulting rabbits are not raised properly, and do not make good pets so are far more likly to end up in rescues because they cannot be handled.Over three quarters of the rabbits that i take in are cross breed rabbits.These are breed to make money not bred by responsable breeders.The pure breed rabbits also tend to be breed for money by amitures, the resulting rabbits are nothing like they should be in type, these are the people that are breeding whotever they can get there hands on to make money without thinking or knowing the rabbits hisory,therefore many are born with problems such as bad teeth.Unless u know the history of a rabbit u can easily breed in such things. People who show are very responable in the main and want to breed the best they can, and that means breeding happy heathy rabbits good enough to show.Iwould just like to ad that i have had a lot of people having to give up there rabbits when moveing because they are moving in to privet rented accomadation and the landlords are not letting them have pets, it seems to be the thing now as ive come across this many times. What would help the situation is people being more informed on how to look after their pets.Mant people are just so iggnorant on the subject and its too easy to go out and buy a pet.This applies to all pets not just rabbits. val

The reason this topic never gets us anywhere is because people will continue to bury their heads in the sand and refuse to admit that breeding is a problem for rabbit welfare!

Breeding = more rabbits. There are not enough homes available already, so why is the message not getting through?

Even if you don't sell to pet shops, you still have to sell your "surplus stock" direct to homes. These people could adopt from rescues instead.

At the end of the day, people need to be aware of the consequences of their actions.

Jenny

 

[tupperwarequeen]

As a new member its been very interesting reading these posts.

I admit that I got Flossie from a pet shop, I was not aware of any rescues in my area and RSPCA didnt think i was suitable as I have a 3 year old child (!!why this means I cant care for rabbits I dont know, I'm well aware that rabbits need care by an adult - I wouldnt have rescued my other Bunny if i wasn't aware of their needs) Anyway, I was actually very impressed with the petshop, they asked me to return the next day to see if I still wanted her, they gave lots of advice and leaflets even though I said I already had a bunny. I go to this same shop a few times a week for supplies, they are always caring for the pets and all the staff are knowledgable. I appreciate that they may be in the minority though.

I do however now feel very guilty that I didnt rescue a rabbit from somewhere in need and resolve to serve pennance by trying to help where I can.

 

[tupperwarequeen]

As a new member its been very interesting reading these posts.

I admit that I got Flossie from a pet shop, I was not aware of any rescues in my area and RSPCA didnt think i was suitable as I have a 3 year old child (!!why this means I cant care for rabbits I dont know, I'm well aware that rabbits need care by an adult - I wouldnt have rescued my other Bunny if i wasn't aware of their needs) Anyway, I was actually very impressed with the petshop, they asked me to return the next day to see if I still wanted her, they gave lots of advice and leaflets even though I said I already had a bunny. I go to this same shop a few times a week for supplies, they are always caring for the pets and all the staff are knowledgable. I appreciate that they may be in the minority though.

I do however now feel very guilty that I didnt rescue a rabbit from somewhere in need and resolve to serve pennance by trying to help where I can.

 

[bunnylove]

As a new member its been very interesting reading these posts.

I admit that I got Flossie from a pet shop, I was not aware of any rescues in my area and RSPCA didnt think i was suitable as I have a 3 year old child (!!why this means I cant care for rabbits I dont know, I'm well aware that rabbits need care by an adult - I wouldnt have rescued my other Bunny if i wasn't aware of their needs) Anyway, I was actually very impressed with the petshop, they asked me to return the next day to see if I still wanted her, they gave lots of advice and leaflets even though I said I already had a bunny. I go to this same shop a few times a week for supplies, they are always caring for the pets and all the staff are knowledgable. I appreciate that they may be in the minority though.

I do however now feel very guilty that I didnt rescue a rabbit from somewhere in need and resolve to serve pennance by trying to help where I can.

hi there tupplewarequeen, I wouldnt feel guilty for not knowing about rescues! why would you? you were not to knowthey existed BUT U DO NOW!

hi that also sounds like a great pet shop! an ideal cooling of period would be longer than just a day but its better than nothing.?

i did not know about rescues, until i bought my first pet shop rabbits, lost one and then rescued one straight from outside a pet shop( he was geniunely dumped) it still did not hit home to me the level of the problem , so i breed my rabbit with him (madness now when i think about it :evil: ) but i cant regret it, i would not do it again and have vets bills to prove that i neuter ALL animals that come my way, but i kept all my babys so did not help the rescue situation but also did not add to it! I think i have done my bit for rabbits in need ever since, i have taking in no less that 10 rabbits in the last year and still have my 7 others! and will continue to take rabbits on and help there cause whilst there is still breathe in my lungs.

Eve x

 

[Lanny]

Lanny wrote:




The law should be changed to stop buns being sold in pet shops - you wouldn't buy a cat of dog from one, and the responsibility is just the same!

Rant over! Laughing


people do and can buy cats and dogs from pet shops

Apologies, but I have never come across dogs and cats in pet shops ( I am not saying you are incorrect) my parents have always had rescue dogs and cats from breeders.

But I really think you are missing the point here which is, as I and others have said earlier, we will never change the way that buns are treated if we argue amongst ourselves the fact that we all use this forum proves that we care for bunnies.

We, along with rescue centres and Rabbit organisations, must find a way to educate people about rabbits.

People have to understand that rabbits should be treated the same as a cat or a dog and not as some ornament at the bottom of the garden!

 

[bunnylove]

Lanny wrote:




The law should be changed to stop buns being sold in pet shops - you wouldn't buy a cat of dog from one, and the responsibility is just the same!

Rant over! Laughing


people do and can buy cats and dogs from pet shops

Apologies, but I have never come across dogs and cats in pet shops ( I am not saying you are incorrect) my parents have always had rescue dogs and cats from breeders.

But I really think you are missing the point here which is, as I and others have said earlier, we will never change the way that buns are treated if we argue amongst ourselves the fact that we all use this forum proves that we care for bunnies.

We, along with rescue centres and Rabbit organisations, must find a way to educate people about rabbits.

People have to understand that rabbits should be treated the same as a cat or a dog and not as some ornament at the bottom of the garden!

i dont think i missed any point you said that people dont buy cats and dogs from pet shop, they DO! there is a pet shop locally from me that holds the dogs in ths shop :twisted: , and have been doing so for years and have a roaring trade!

and i would say its that pet world in general that that we need to educate people about how about all the dogs and cats that are abandon each year! ins not just bunnies!

i would totally aggree that we need to educate people but HOW as many people still see rabbits as FOOD! yes thats right as food i have an elderly neighbour who spend hours with his head over the fence watching my buns play and loves watching them, but who openly admits to eating them in the war, because they were a cheap meal, and his friend whom was a butcher will openly tell me how he has slaughter many for that purpose!

Eve x

 

[Fluffybunny]

Even if you don't sell to pet shops, you still have to sell your "surplus stock" direct to homes. These people could adopt from rescues instead.

Jenny

Surely this is not up to the breeder, only the future pet owner can choose where to go for their rabbits :? Ok if breeders wern't here they wouldn't have the choice, I can see where you are coming from - but not everybody wants to go to a rescue...and they should be able to have that choice.

 

[Wabbit]

Even if you don't sell to pet shops, you still have to sell your "surplus stock" direct to homes. These people could adopt from rescues instead.

Jenny

Surely this is not up to the breeder, only the future pet owner can choose where to go for their rabbits :? Ok if breeders wern't here they wouldn't have the choice, I can see where you are coming from - but not everybody wants to go to a rescue...and they should be able to have that choice.

You've just said it yourself - if breeders weren't there, people would have to obtain rabbits from rescues! The good point here is that good rescue organisations will always carry out a home-check first.

Again, you're putting more importance on people having a choice than the welfare of rabbits, ie stuff the fact that there are thousands of homeless rabbits stuck in rescue centres - people should be able to go out and get the rabbit they want, from where they want! This is not putting rabbits first!!!

Jenny

 

[Tamsin]

How about we get away from the breeder debate and look take a look at the people taking on bunnies. Some numbers to start with....

(Btw, I'm presuming that we're not advocating stopping rabbits ownership so bunnies will have to come from somewhere PM me if you need a talk on birds & bees )

There are 1.5 million rabbits currently kept as pets in the UK.
Each year 30,000 of the current population end up in rescues (that works out at 2%)

If every rabbit lived 8 years, 187,500 new bunnies would have to be born a year to maintain the population.

Lets say we stopped people who were irresponsible deciding to take on a bunny - we reduced the demand.

If we guess that 1/5 of the current pet owners are responsible (and will continue to keep bunnies) then that would knock it down to 300,000 kept as pets. As these are kept by responsible owners the proportion ending up in rescues should decline, even if it didn't the number ending up in rescues would still drop to 6000.

Similarly the numbers of rabbits born a year to maintain the lowered population would drop - 37,500 - the supply reduces.

Supply = demand. If you lower the demand then the numbers of rabbits being bred will decrease.

Whilst there is demand people will fill it. If we persuade half of the breeders to give up tommorow more would soon take there place.

So, we need to reduce demand... the question is how? We could look back at economic theory for this... demand is the number of people willing and able to buy a product at the current price. Put up the price and demand decreases. So we have to put up the price of rabbit ownership. Don't panic I'm not suggesting actually putting up the cost of things At the moment the perceived price of rabbit ownership is much lower than the actual price; people think they are cheap & easy pets. When they find out they're not they don't want them any more (demand goes down). What we need to do is reduce demand before they get the rabbit in the first place by making sure the perceived cost of rabbit ownership = actual cost.

We educate people on how much a rabbit costs to care for (both in time, effort & money) > the perceived cost of ownership goes up > the demand reduces > the number of rabbits being breed (supply) reduces.

Ideally people should research before the take on a rabbit and find the actual cost but it's also important the people doing the supplying (pets/breeders) make sure people are aware.

Lets look back at the orginal stats: 1.5 million kept as pets, 30,000 in rescue and 187,500 born a year. Rescues can't meet the demand. If we got the adopt message out and the next 30,000 people wanting bunnies got them from a rescue the next 157,500 would still go to a petshop. If the rescue said no they'd go elsewhere. If we stopped petshops selling they'd go to their friend down the road who could now sell at petshop prices because there was no competition from petshops.

Changing where people go to get a rabbit won't solve the problem it just hides it, there would be no rabbits in rescue but there would be no improvement in welfare of rabbits in homes - 4/5 (or what ever the proportion is) would still be living with owners that don't provide a "good" home. There would also be no reduction in the numbers of rabbits being born.

In conclusion:

If only people willing & able to meet the cost of caring for a rabbit take them on then it doesn't matter where they get them from. The rabbit's chances of ending up in rescues will decrease, so the rescue population problem will decrease and the welfare of rabbits in homes will improve.

I'm not saying adopting from rescue isn't important but it's only putting a temporary patch on the problem. We need to reduce the number of rabbits coming into rescues in the first place not just increase the number going out.

Tamsin

 

[bunnylove]

If only people willing & able to meet the cost of caring for a rabbit take them on then it doesn't matter where they get them from. The rabbit's chances of ending up in rescues will decrease, so the rescue population problem will decrease and the welfare of rabbits in homes will improve.

I'm not saying adopting from rescue isn't important but it's only putting a temporary patch on the problem. We need to reduce the number of rabbits coming into rescues in the first place not just increase the number going out.

tamsin are you saying in part that it is the cost of care that makes someone give up there rabbit and put it into a rescue?

 

[Tamsin]

Not necessarily cost in money but the cost in time and effort too. What you have to give in exchange for owning a rabbit e.g. a couple of hours a week on cleaning etc.

Tam

 

[elve]

hi

I would imagine that most people put rabbits in a rescue (or free ads) because of either 'teenage' behavioural changes in their sweet baby bunny - or becuase their children lost interest in their pet and the parents couldn't be bothered - Plus the annual family holiday of course - well you can always get another when we get back :roll:

I am looking after rabbits because I'm concerned for their welfare - I don't have a burning urge to nurture and pet things - in part I'm trying to make up for past sins - although I was just ignorant and arrogant in my attitude to animals then, not deliberately callous

 

[Tamsin]

Exactly, teenagers don't want to give up their time for the bun, their parents don't want to effort of taking care of them. The cost of neutering or the time & effort of research or finding boarding is too much hard work :evil:

People under estimate the time and effort that goes into taking care of a bunny and when they find out the true cost they're not willing to pay it so they get rid of the rabbit.

You're prepared to give up your time, effort & cash to care for your rabbits. For you their welfare is worth those things. Now if all owners were like you and those that weren't willing to hand over those things didn't take on a bunny - we wouldn't have such a problem

Tam

 

[bunny-mad]

Tamsin, so basically you're saying it is an education issue rather than anything else?

If so, it sounds to me like we need to know more about WHO are the people who are giving up their rabbits and WHY. Tamsin out of interest was this included on your rescue survey? It would be very interesting to see some stats on this. b-m

P.S. I still don't think all breeders should be tarred with the same brush. It's easy to have a go at the ones that are here, but the disreputable ones wouldn't bother coming onto a forum like this...