UPDATED HELP! Dennis rushed to the emergency vet tonight :'-(

[Jack's-Jane]

Vet said he's NOT in statsis. His chest sounds clear. We suspect it's his heart. Treatment at the mo is just keeping him comfatable. Not sure if there's anything else we can do really. The vets have him till five then we need to decide if he comes home ( if he's well enough) or if he is pts. I don't think I can bare to watch him fade away.

Do you know what drugs he is on re his heart ?

I am so sorry that the news is so grave

 

[Lea-Anne]

Frocimide I think it's called - for heart failure in cats. I feel a bit better now I know it's not stasis. Yes the outcome is worse but I don't feel to blame anymore. With statsis I always think it's me not force feeding them properly or doing the wrong things - if it is his heart then there's nothing I or the vet can do. Does that make sence? It sounds horrible but I know what I mean - the decision is out of my hands. Still gutted though.

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Frocimide I think it's called - for heart failure in cats. I feel a bit better now I know it's not stasis. Yes the outcome is worse but I don't feel to blame anymore. With statsis I always think it's me not force feeding them properly or doing the wrong things - if it is his heart then there's nothing I or the vet can do. Does that make sence? It sounds horrible but I know what I mean - the decision is out of my hands. Still gutted though.

It makes sense, yes


I dont know how you feel about additional medication for his heart. There are more drugs that can be used, the Frusimide is just a diuretic. Other drugs could include vasodilators eg nitroglycerine given transdermally, ACE inhibitors eg Enalapril. If the problem is related to heart valve problems or cardiomyopathy then Digoxin.

But it may be that for Dennis more aggressive treatment is not appropriate, everyBun is different re when enough is enough. I am sure that whatever decision you make it will be the right one for Dennis xx

 

[Beowulf1976]

I completely understand where you are coming from.... however, whatever the outcome, none of it is your fault, I don't know you as I have not been "properly here" for long, but you come across as being an outstanding bunny mummy, with impeccable animal husbandry, and have masses and masses of love for the critters in your care.

There is no way on this planet anything could have been your fault, you love and care about your pets too much!

I hope on all hopes that he pulls through whatever the problem is.

Don't really know what else to say, I'm sorry I wasted your time with a non-advising post.

best wishes

xxx

 

[chelle]

Im ever so sorry this is happening...Im so glad some experienced people have been able to help abit...sorry I didnt have the expereince..was thinking all last night about how you guys were getting on...hope Dennis comfortable xxx

 

[Lea-Anne]

It makes sense, yes


I dont know how you feel about additional medication for his heart. There are more drugs that can be used, the Frusimide is just a diuretic. Other drugs could include vasodilators eg nitroglycerine given transdermally, ACE inhibitors eg Enalapril. If the problem is related to heart valve problems or cardiomyopathy then Digoxin.

But it may be that for Dennis more aggressive treatment is not appropriate, everyBun is different re when enough is enough. I am sure that whatever decision you make it will be the right one for Dennis xx

Are you talking months or days? I'm not willing to continue if it's just prolonging the inevitable for a week or so. If there's a chance we'll do anything no matter the cost. I feel even the care he's having now may just be making him 'comfatable' but what's the point ? Another day of suffering? My husband and I have been going round in circles. I want to fight for him but I also understand g's view that he's a) a rabbit - fragile and weak at the best of times b) majorly ill with only one outcome. I wish we could tell me what to do :-(

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Are you talking months or days? I'm not willing to continue if it's just prolonging the inevitable for a week or so. If there's a chance we'll do anything no matter the cost. I feel even the care he's having now may just be making him 'comfatable' but what's the point ? Another day of suffering? My husband and I have been going round in circles. I want to fight for him but I also understand g's view that he's a) a rabbit - fragile and weak at the best of times b) majorly ill with only one outcome. I wish we could tell me what to do :-(

I honestly dont know how much time additional drugs *might* buy him.

The longest any of my 'Cardiac Rexes' have coped for once on a lot of treatment was 11 and a half MONTHS.

But then I have had one who failed to respond to any treatment and was PTS 10 days after initial diagnosis.

It is an awful situation for you, I wish I could be of more help

 

[Lea-Anne]

I completely understand where you are coming from.... however, whatever the outcome, none of it is your fault, I don't know you as I have not been "properly here" for long, but you come across as being an outstanding bunny mummy, with impeccable animal husbandry, and have masses and masses of love for the critters in your care.

There is no way on this planet anything could have been your fault, you love and care about your pets too much!

I hope on all hopes that he pulls through whatever the problem is.

Don't really know what else to say, I'm sorry I wasted your time with a non-advising post.

best wishes

xxx

Thankyou so much. That means a lot. We only ever have our pets best interests at heart. I will do anything to save him if he can fight this but will not let him suffer. When i forcefeed and they leave me i always think what if id tried harder, what if we'd given more this, what if I'd done this differently maybe i waited to long blah blah blah - theres always that doubt. Last night I was sobbing saying im suppose to know my stuff yet i can't get him eating. I felt responsible. But now .. If it is his heart theres absolutely diddly squat I can do. Now I'm crying at work!

 

[prettylupin]

So sorry to read about Dennis Sending you a hug x

 

[Lea-Anne]

I honestly dont know how much time additional drugs *might* buy him.

The longest any of my 'Cardiac Rexes' have coped for once on a lot of treatment was 11 and a half MONTHS.

But then I have had one who failed to respond to any treatment and was PTS 10 days after initial diagnosis.

It is an awful situation for you, I wish I could be of more help

Thankyou! You are a help! If it wasn't for you I'd never have suspected a heart problem - me and hubby would probably be blaiming ourselves right now. We bought him a few months with the diuretics. I'll suggest those other meds later when I ring.

 

[Tatihou]

If he comes home to "fade away" will his heart just pack up? And if so, would it be kind to let that happen somewhere where he feels safe and secure? I know you probably don't want to get up and find him but I think that's a really kind death.

I've been in this position so often over the years with cats and dogs and it is never easy or the decision straight forward to make. I really sympathise and wish you and Dennis all the best for the right and gentlest outcome, whatever that might be.

 

[parsnipbun]

Teasals heart was diagnosed too late for anything to start working. I know it sounds as though we neglected to notice anything but he really was absolutely the same as normal until just 3 days before he died. We took him to the vet the first day we noticed a difference and when they looked at his heart they could not believe it.

We tried the diuritics and forticor but it was all too late I dont think they even got into the system.

Teasal died at home and I would not have had it any other way. They were pretty sure it would happen over the following 2 days as the heart was so enlarged and fluid had started to build up - we had valium to help him if he panicked (but he didnt) and to slightly help him through the final stages as the heart started to actually pack up. He really just drifted off until the actual last moment when a reaction is really reflex . . - but even then we were able to hold him close.

We stayed up all night with him - he died in our arms about 3.30 a.m . I miss him so very much even though it was 18 months ago now I still think of him every day..

PS I know sometimes it cant be avoided as emergency treatment is tried - but of all the bunny deaths I have had - I regret most the ones where they were at the vets and not home with us. Now I never leave a very ill rabbit at the vet unless there is absolutely something the vet can do that I cant and I never leave a bun that is terminal there.

 

[Lea-Anne]

Thanks everyone for the advice and thoughts. I'll know more shortly. My husband who is off probably knows more already but won't want me to be upset at work. Feel like I've gone in to gut stasis myself! I've been unable to eat or sleep for two days, I feel so ill.

 

[Coineanach]

Oh no! I am so sorry, I never realised Dennis was ill My poor wee orange man, give him a nose rub from me.

It makes sense, yes


I dont know how you feel about additional medication for his heart. There are more drugs that can be used, the Frusimide is just a diuretic. Other drugs could include vasodilators eg nitroglycerine given transdermally, ACE inhibitors eg Enalapril. If the problem is related to heart valve problems or cardiomyopathy then Digoxin.

But it may be that for Dennis more aggressive treatment is not appropriate, everyBun is different re when enough is enough. I am sure that whatever decision you make it will be the right one for Dennis xx

I agree with this post. The diuretic (your furosemide) is only helping to remove the fluid from the body. As it was explained to me, Furosemide removes fluid from the lungs which is putting extra pressure on them and making it harder to breathe. So it makes breathing easier, and takes some of the strain off the heart, but doesn't help the heart directly. We also had ACE inhibitors as Jane has mentioned, they inhibit an enzyme and help lower blood pressure I think? We had Enalapril as an ACE inhibitor.

The one which I found made the biggest difference was Pimobendan (Vetmedin brand name) which was developed for heart failure in dogs. I don't think it's common to be used in small furries, my vet had to phone the Royal D!ck vet in Edinburgh to ask about it. It's another inhibitor and I think has something to do with calcium - I don't know how it works. We found that the combination of the three meds made Oidhche-Velvet comfortable. We had another five months with her, but as the vet says, it's a case of 'how long is a piece of string?' as to how long they have.

As a very last ditch attempt we had, by injection, Dimazon (diuretic) to save me fighting with the Furosemide, vitamin B12, Colvasone (a steroid) and Millophyline (a respiratory stimulant). This really perked her up, unfortunately we said goodbye the next day but she had been chewing at things the night before so was obviously feeling much better, if only for a short while. It may work for longer in other cases as every rabbit is different. The whole way through she also had Metacam (until we had to have the steroids) for the pain to use as and when we needed it. Normally they would worry about long-term effects but when have months you thankfully don't have to bother about it, so we kept her dosed up and pain-free.

Oxygen was recommended on the forum when we had breathing problems but we never used that as Oidhche hated the vet and I felt the journey would be counter-productive. I found a large cool room with well-circulated air helps, and in the early stages we gave chamomile tea which is a natural sedative. Although it will not help the heart, it may help him calm down, as humans panic when they can't breathe, so I suspect rabbits will too. We also found that sitting in a cool doorway and supporting her chest helped as well.

There are a few posts about him going by himself - although that would be nice unfortunately it doesn't always work like that. But he will tell you when it's time. Everyone told me I would know when Oidhche wanted to go and I didn't believe them, but in the end she lay in her hay box and didn't get up again, so we moved her to a carrier in the same position and went to the vets to say goodbye. It was very peaceful, and you do know when, you Dennis better than anyone. Hopefully you will still have a while with him before that day comes.

Please make sure and take care of yourself. You need to eat and rest too. You are no help to Dennis if you're not in one piece. He knows you love him and that is the most important thing in the world to him. I would check with the vet and then give him anything he wants - the day before OV went I asked K if there was anything we couldn't give her and he basically said let her eat whatever the heck she wants. Her last meal was my wooden cupboard :roll: but she also had biscuits and all sorts of sweet rubbish. It made her very happy and it's nice to have that memory of her so it may be something to bear in mind for the future. xx

 

[Lea-Anne]

No change, no poo and refusing force feeding. Vet recommended we let him go. Hubby and I had a long chat and said if he'd improved just a tiny bit we would've had an x ray and new heart pills tomorrow. But we felt he was too far gone. The vet said she could give him another gut stimulant if we wanted but he'd already had everything thrown at him - twice - and nothing worked. Gordon is devastated (he had a bond with him, i didn't really) and it's breaking my heart to see him upset. I've been so proud of him these last two days , telling me not to worry about the cost, we'll try anything and generally just being their for me x We will miss him so much. I just feel Vince was meant to be even more. We got him when I lost Dex but he was ill so had to stay in the house. We were thinking of keeping him as such. Now think it's a definite

 

[Coineanach]

No change, no poo and refusing force feeding. Vet recommended we let him go. Hubby and I had a long chat and said if he'd improved just a tiny bit we would've had an x ray and new heart pills tomorrow. But we felt he was too far gone. The vet said she could give him another gut stimulant if we wanted but he'd already had everything thrown at him - twice - and nothing worked. Gordon is devastated (he had a bond with him, i didn't really) and it's breaking my heart to see him upset. I've been so proud of him these last two days , telling me not to worry about the cost, we'll try anything and generally just being their for me x We will miss him so much. I just feel Vince was meant to be even more. We got him when I lost Dex but he was ill so had to stay in the house. We were thinking of keeping him as such. Now think it's a definite

I am really very sorry I know you will have made the best decision for Dennis. We could keep trying things forever but eventually you have to let them go. It's an incredibly brave thing to do. Lots of love to him x xxx xxx xxx

Big *hugs* to yourself and Gordon. It's funny how things work out sometimes, I would keep Vince in the house too. It's so lovely to have them around all the time and I know I really miss having bunny company in the house. I am thinking of you all.

 

[Lea-Anne]

I am really very sorry I know you will have made the best decision for Dennis. We could keep trying things forever but eventually you have to let them go. It's an incredibly brave thing to do. Lots of love to him x xxx xxx xxx

Big *hugs* to yourself and Gordon. It's funny how things work out sometimes, I would keep Vince in the house too. It's so lovely to have them around all the time and I know I really miss having bunny company in the house. I am thinking of you all.

Thank you xx. If it wasn't for you and your little bun we never would've known what was wrong and probably kept on with wrong treatments. It was a very difficult decision but we feel it was the only one.

 

[Coineanach]

Thank you xx. If it wasn't for you and your little bun we never would've known what was wrong and probably kept on with wrong treatments. It was a very difficult decision but we feel it was the only one.

I'm 100% sure it was. You would never do anything other than the best for Dennis. xx

 

[Jack's-Jane]

I am sorry

 

[bunny babe]

No change, no poo and refusing force feeding. Vet recommended we let him go. Hubby and I had a long chat and said if he'd improved just a tiny bit we would've had an x ray and new heart pills tomorrow. But we felt he was too far gone. The vet said she could give him another gut stimulant if we wanted but he'd already had everything thrown at him - twice - and nothing worked. Gordon is devastated (he had a bond with him, i didn't really) and it's breaking my heart to see him upset. I've been so proud of him these last two days , telling me not to worry about the cost, we'll try anything and generally just being their for me x We will miss him so much. I just feel Vince was meant to be even more. We got him when I lost Dex but he was ill so had to stay in the house. We were thinking of keeping him as such. Now think it's a definite

I think so too and maybe that little chin that Dennis gave Vincent on Saturday was his way of approving of him and telling him to look after you

I am so sorry you had to make such a very hard decision for you both and very brave. Hugs to Gordon, I know he was extra special to him with the bond that they had. xxx

Dennis was very lucky to have such caring owners who would do anything for him. Sleep tight Dennis. Hugs to you both xxx