Taking away their absolute favourite food

[a reader of books]

So, Casper and Sophie love their pellets. So, so much. But, gosh, I'm getting really tired of their food aggression every time it's time for pellets, which is twice a day. They're so sweet to each other normally, but when it's time for pellets they turn into little devils and turn on each other. I hide their pellets in their play mats and digging boxes and food toys, spreading those around the room, but they will chase each other away from these and are just complete jerks to each other until every pellet has been found. Now, I've already been replacing some of their pellets with Fibafirst sticks, just in case that might be better for their teeth than pellets, but I was planning on still giving them pellets, too, because they love them so much. They don't love their Fibafirst sticks enough to become agressive over them, so I was thinking of instead replacing all their pellets with the Fibafirst sticks, but it feels cruel because, as I said, they love their pellets so, so much. Would it be cruel? They'd still get a very small number of pellets because I put their metacam on a few pellets and handfeed them one by one, making sure they each get their full dose, so they wouldn't be completely without, but that's only about 6 pellets for each of them.

 

[Cuthbert&Dillon]

Watching this thread with interest as Rups and Susan will chase me for pellets, not each other though like you describe Casper and Sophie.

 

[KCG]

I am caring for a bunny for the first time. Frankly, I am not knowledgeable about these matters. But they love their pellets. If I were you, I would continue to give pellets. Yo don't hide pellets, give the pellets to them directly. You same as you give vegetables. Maybe it could be better.

There is a treat I give to my bunny every day. One day is over and I could not give 2 days. At the end of the 2nd day I gave him his treat again. He got very excited while I was trying to give the treat. He tried to jump into my hand. He slapped my hand twice I have never encountered this problem when I give regularly. It is not valuable when you give it regularly and without hiding. Maybe then they won't fight.

 

[Omi]

I'm sorry I can't remember which pellets you feed to Casper and Sophie? If it's something like the adult Science Selective, could you gradually wean them off these and replace them with a pellet made from a base of grass/hay? I've no experience of these so haven't linked to any examples, but there does seem to be a large selection now. Like the FibaFirst they probably wouldn't be their favourite pellet, but they might con them into thinking that they were getting a pellet and might also stop the food aggression. Then you could reduce these over time and replace with FibaFirst.

As to your main question about whether this is cruel or not, well in my view no it isn't. Unless there is a specific reason to feed pellets, e.g. in your case with indoor rabbits the Vit D, I personally would have no qualms about taking them away. But then with the rabbits I've had and have, I very, very rarely would feed fruit or carrot or anything like that, but others might think that's cruel as they obviously do like it. I view it in the same way that I didn't buy my children sweets or biscuits, but not everyone sees it like that

So, I've waffled a bit, but in summary, no I don't think it's cruel and it would probably actually be beneficial to them as it would encourage more hay consumption.

Just for a bit of diversion, we have 3 hens and they are fed as natural a diet for hens as possible. However, as a treat before bedtime they have a very small amount of oats and they literally go made for them. They don't so much waste time being aggressive with each other, once the food has been served, but as soon as they see me approaching with the small dish of oats, they fly at me :lol: Think Hitchcock's film of The Birds :lol:

 

[joey&boo]

I'm undecided about this. My main worry I think would be maintaining their weight as older buns. Will they eat enough hay, dried forage, grass (when it grows) & greens to make up the energy deficit. Sophie & Casper are both slim looking bunnies (not underweight looking bunnies) - which is perfect but it doesn't leave extra wriggle room if say Casper lost weight & then needed a dental. Obviously you've the dedication & scales to monitor closely. ,

Personally I think I'd try perhaps still feeding nuggets at breakfast for say a month & see how they go then review. I'd give feed Casper his portion on the balcony & Sophies in their room, experimenting with if they eat calmer from a bowl or scattered in their area. Where you normally hide pellets I'd try dried forage which presumably they find tasty enough to keep them active & enriched.

Objectively I don't think it would be mean but I would feel mean - as I've said on here before I could not take nuggets away from Boo unless her health needs dictated it. They are absolutely her favourite part of the day & a routine that's very well entrenched.

 

[a reader of books]

Watching this thread with interest as Rups and Susan will chase me for pellets, not each other though like you describe Casper and Sophie.

Oh gosh, they chase you! They must love their pellets as much as Casper and Sophie do!

I am caring for a bunny for the first time. Frankly, I am not knowledgeable about these matters. But they love their pellets. If I were you, I would continue to give pellets. Yo don't hide pellets, give the pellets to them directly. You same as you give vegetables. Maybe it could be better.

There is a treat I give to my bunny every day. One day is over and I could not give 2 days. At the end of the 2nd day I gave him his treat again. He got very excited while I was trying to give the treat. He tried to jump into my hand. He slapped my hand twice I have never encountered this problem when I give regularly. It is not valuable when you give it regularly and without hiding. Maybe then they won't fight.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this. I'll keep your advice in mind. I do give the pellets regularly, though; twice a day! And they still think it's very valuable. :lol: But maybe hiding the food makes it worse, yeah.

I'm sorry I can't remember which pellets you feed to Casper and Sophie? If it's something like the adult Science Selective, could you gradually wean them off these and replace them with a pellet made from a base of grass/hay? I've no experience of these so haven't linked to any examples, but there does seem to be a large selection now. Like the FibaFirst they probably wouldn't be their favourite pellet, but they might con them into thinking that they were getting a pellet and might also stop the food aggression. Then you could reduce these over time and replace with FibaFirst.

As to your main question about whether this is cruel or not, well in my view no it isn't. Unless there is a specific reason to feed pellets, e.g. in your case with indoor rabbits the Vit D, I personally would have no qualms about taking them away. But then with the rabbits I've had and have, I very, very rarely would feed fruit or carrot or anything like that, but others might think that's cruel as they obviously do like it. I view it in the same way that I didn't buy my children sweets or biscuits, but not everyone sees it like that

So, I've waffled a bit, but in summary, no I don't think it's cruel and it would probably actually be beneficial to them as it would encourage more hay consumption.

Just for a bit of diversion, we have 3 hens and they are fed as natural a diet for hens as possible. However, as a treat before bedtime they have a very small amount of oats and they literally go made for them. They don't so much waste time being aggressive with each other, once the food has been served, but as soon as they see me approaching with the small dish of oats, they fly at me :lol: Think Hitchcock's film of The Birds :lol:

Your story about your hens made me laugh. :lol: Sounds like they really, really like their bedtime oats. :lol:

Thank you for sharing your view on this, Omi. They do get the adult Science Selective. Replacing them with a grass/hay-based pellet and then over time replacing them with Fibafirst is an interesting idea. They'll still get their pellets, but they might not get aggressive over them since they're not the same pellets they love so much...

I do want to still feed them sort type of commercial food for the vitamin D and because they need it to keep their weight on, but the Fibafirst should take care of that. Sophie and Casper don't get fruit or carrot or unhealthy treats, either, but I don't feel bad about that because they don't expect that. They do, however, very much expect their daily pellets. :lol:

I'm undecided about this. My main worry I think would be maintaining their weight as older buns. Will they eat enough hay, dried forage, grass (when it grows) & greens to make up the energy deficit. Sophie & Casper are both slim looking bunnies (not underweight looking bunnies) - which is perfect but it doesn't leave extra wriggle room if say Casper lost weight & then needed a dental. Obviously you've the dedication & scales to monitor closely. ,

Personally I think I'd try perhaps still feeding nuggets at breakfast for say a month & see how they go then review. I'd give feed Casper his portion on the balcony & Sophies in their room, experimenting with if they eat calmer from a bowl or scattered in their area. Where you normally hide pellets I'd try dried forage which presumably they find tasty enough to keep them active & enriched.

Objectively I don't think it would be mean but I would feel mean - as I've said on here before I could not take nuggets away from Boo unless her health needs dictated it. They are absolutely her favourite part of the day & a routine that's very well entrenched.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, too, j&b. Their weight is a worry, yes. Even as I've been replacing pellets with the Fibafirst sticks they've lost weight, because I think they need more of the Fibafirst, weight-wise, than the pellets to get the same calories. I've increased the Fibafirst and they feel less bony now, and today is weighing day, so we'll see if they're back to their normal weight. It would be good to have some wriggle room, yes, so I need them to be a good weight.

I really like your idea of them still getting pellets for breakfast for a while and then see how they do, and of Casper eating on the balcony, since Sophie never goes out there and wouldn't be able to chase him, yes. That's a great idea. And I'll do some experimenting to see if eating from bowls versus scattered around will keep them calmer. Hiding dried forage instead of pellets is a good idea, yeah. This morning I hid pieces of Fibafirst along with their pellets, but they ate all the pellets and the Fibafirst pieces are still there. :lol: So, hopefully they like the dried forage more than the Fibafirst and will actually look for it.

I would feel mean, too, to be honest, like you would feel mean taking away Boo's nuggets... Maybe I could still feed some as treats throughout the day...

 

[dollyanna]

I see this from another viewpoint - yes they enjoy pellets, but they clearly don't enjoy each other when there are pellets. Their relationship would be more important to me, as well as their mental wellbeing, and if pellets are such high value it is causing stress to the level of guarding then I would want to remove that stress. So I'd say there are three options - utilise enrichment feeding to reduce stress (but you are already doing this and it is not helping), be sure to feed them apart, every time, as long as this does not cause stress in itself (you may find that they are still stressed simply because they then learn that being separated means pellets are being eaten), or remove the pellets full stop and see what you can replace it with. Fibafirst is a good start, and if that is enough then I would go down that route. There are a couple of reasons why fibafirst might work better and be less stressful, it might be lower value, but more importantly it requires chewing, and given that bunnies are remarkably similar to equines, chewing is a calming activity. The simple fact that fibafirst needs chewing more will slow them down AND reduce stress alongside each other, whereas pellets are likely to be the opposite.
Just a couple of other thoughts to ponder I know you'll work it out.

 

[CarelessSquid07]

Rodney can be a bit possessive over nuggets. We've reintroduced them although only 10g a day between them.

I find hiding actually intensifies the agression between them. I've now started giving them either in stacked cups where they each have their own pile in separate rooms.

Or they are scattered over a wide area, that way Blossom can keep out of his way and still get her share, she's very good at this and she knows I always put a couple in the cage for her where Rodney will never go until bedtime.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk

 

[a reader of books]

I see this from another viewpoint - yes they enjoy pellets, but they clearly don't enjoy each other when there are pellets. Their relationship would be more important to me, as well as their mental wellbeing, and if pellets are such high value it is causing stress to the level of guarding then I would want to remove that stress. So I'd say there are three options - utilise enrichment feeding to reduce stress (but you are already doing this and it is not helping), be sure to feed them apart, every time, as long as this does not cause stress in itself (you may find that they are still stressed simply because they then learn that being separated means pellets are being eaten), or remove the pellets full stop and see what you can replace it with. Fibafirst is a good start, and if that is enough then I would go down that route. There are a couple of reasons why fibafirst might work better and be less stressful, it might be lower value, but more importantly it requires chewing, and given that bunnies are remarkably similar to equines, chewing is a calming activity. The simple fact that fibafirst needs chewing more will slow them down AND reduce stress alongside each other, whereas pellets are likely to be the opposite.
Just a couple of other thoughts to ponder I know you'll work it out.

Ooh, I hadn't thought about it like that at all. Thank you for sharing your different viewpoint, dollyanna. You're right, if pellets make them act towards each other like this, they're causing stress. I hadn't looked at it that way. I agree that their relationship is more important. I've been worried that this harms their relationship, even though once the pellets are all gone they're absolutely fine with each other again. It would still be much better if they weren't so mean to each other twice a day. I hadn't considered that chewing would be a calming activity, either, but, yes, that makes sense. So, seems like I can try feeding them apart, or replacing their pellets entirely with Fibafirst sticks, hm... You've given me something to think about.

Rodney can be a bit possessive over nuggets. We've reintroduced them although only 10g a day between them.

I find hiding actually intensifies the agression between them. I've now started giving them either in stacked cups where they each have their own pile in separate rooms.

Or they are scattered over a wide area, that way Blossom can keep out of his way and still get her share, she's very good at this and she knows I always put a couple in the cage for her where Rodney will never go until bedtime.

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Thank you for sharing your experience with Rodney and Blossom, CarelessSquid. That's interesting that hiding the pellets actually increases the aggression between them. I've been thinking that if I hide the pellets in several places, Sophie can look for them in a playmat while Casper looks for them in a digging box, for example, and they can eat away from each other, but in reality they always want to be in the same place and then they chase each other away. So, yes, hiding clearly doesn't work. I'm glad having Blossom and Rodney eat in separate rooms now works for them, and scattering the pellets over a wide area. I'll give that a try, too, I think, feeding them separately like that. I've tried scattering their pellets through the room, without hiding them, but they're aggressive with each other then, too, sadly. They look so cute, but, gosh, bunnies can be mean.

 

[Zoobec]

I think pellets can often cause issues in pairs and groups. And if you are already scatter feeding but it doesn’t help then I would remove them gradually and feed fibafirst sticks and readigrass instead. That’s what I did to encourage Frosty to eat more hay and forage and help his teeth.

 

[Mervinius]

Archie and Pip do this over pellets and are definitely worse when I scatter them. They get so excited and are zooming around at speed they can't work out where the pellets are, so when one finds one. The grunting and lunging starts. Never used to be like this until Pip had teeth issues. I think she couldn't eat as fast so got upset and its a learnt behaviour now.

Anyway the only way we've found to help our little monkeys is.....I bought two small bowls. I dish out their own share on a table out of reach. Then I have to give Pip her bowl first and then Archie's within 3 secs hahaha. Once they've eaten a few they normally end up sharing each others bowls.

I think unfortunately I have two head strong buns who both think they are in charge!

 

[tulsi]

Frosty chases Daisy at food time, esp pellet o'clock. I put pellets just next to each of them and scatter the rest. They munch happily together within seconds.

Snowflake chases Dusty like crazy at food time. I feed them first now to reduce the build up of excitement. Dusty likes to have pellets on her bed to eat. Snowflake has caught on to this and chases her off it! Recently Dusty sits at the other end of the room from her bed and waits for Snowflake to start eating before hopping over and tucking in.

Logan chases Moondust but not crazily like Snowflake to Dusty.

So bucks are chasers in this house but it doesnt last long and no one gets burt. More of a "we are the boss" type vibe from the macho bucks.

 

[a reader of books]

I think pellets can often cause issues in pairs and groups. And if you are already scatter feeding but it doesn’t help then I would remove them gradually and feed fibafirst sticks and readigrass instead. That’s what I did to encourage Frosty to eat more hay and forage and help his teeth.

Yes, I think that's what I'll do... I think I'll feed them separately until I've gradually replaced all their pellets with Fibafirst sticks, while keeping an eye on their weight, and hopefully they'll be okay once they have no pellets to fight over. I've been giving them readigrass since you suggested it for Casper, and they both like it.

Archie and Pip do this over pellets and are definitely worse when I scatter them. They get so excited and are zooming around at speed they can't work out where the pellets are, so when one finds one. The grunting and lunging starts. Never used to be like this until Pip had teeth issues. I think she couldn't eat as fast so got upset and its a learnt behaviour now.

Anyway the only way we've found to help our little monkeys is.....I bought two small bowls. I dish out their own share on a table out of reach. Then I have to give Pip her bowl first and then Archie's within 3 secs hahaha. Once they've eaten a few they normally end up sharing each others bowls.

I think unfortunately I have two head strong buns who both think they are in charge!

Ah, I see. So, since they're so excited they can't find the pellets easily, they'll argue over it as soon as one of them finds a pellet... I see why scatter feeding makes it worse then, yes. That would make sense that it started when Pip got teeth issues and couldn't eat fast enough to keep up... I'm glad giving them their pellets in bowls (very quickly! haha) has helped. I think I'll give Sophie and Casper each their own bowl (in a different room) until they've completely moved on to Fibafirst sticks, too. That sounds like the best idea. I get having two headstrong buns who both think they're in charge. I'm pretty convinced that both Sophie and Casper think they're the boss, haha.

Frosty chases Daisy at food time, esp pellet o'clock. I put pellets just next to each of them and scatter the rest. They munch happily together within seconds.

Snowflake chases Dusty like crazy at food time. I feed them first now to reduce the build up of excitement. Dusty likes to have pellets on her bed to eat. Snowflake has caught on to this and chases her off it! Recently Dusty sits at the other end of the room from her bed and waits for Snowflake to start eating before hopping over and tucking in.

Logan chases Moondust but not crazily like Snowflake to Dusty.

So bucks are chasers in this house but it doesnt last long and no one gets burt. More of a "we are the boss" type vibe from the macho bucks.

It's interesting that it's only the bucks who do the chasing at your house! Although if they're all macho boss bucks that makes sense! I'm glad it doesn't last long and that no one gets hurt. It's a bit mean of Snowflake to chase Dusty off her bed, though! Come on, Snowflake, be nice. But that's good that Dusty has figured out that she just needs to wait for Snowflake to start eating.

 

[Cuthbert&Dillon]

I dont know if I am doing something a bit daft but I bought an extra large dog anti gobble bowl. I put pellets (science select) in there. Both bunnies can get their heads in but have to concentrate on eating. I will try and do a video tomorrow. I used to scatter but that just seemed to cause friction as Rups was very food aggressive and didnt seem to cope with eating and worrying if Susan was eating something better than him. It seems to work for them but they still chase me to the bowl.

Edited to say I only put the right amount of pellets in so there is a lot of room for the pellets to move between the blades/fins (not sure what the uprights are called)

 

[a reader of books]

I dont know if I am doing something a bit daft but I bought an extra large dog anti gobble bowl. I put pellets (science select) in there. Both bunnies can get their heads in but have to concentrate on eating. I will try and do a video tomorrow. I used to scatter but that just seemed to cause friction as Rups was very food aggressive and didnt seem to cope with eating and worrying if Susan was eating something better than him. It seems to work for them but they still chase me to the bowl.

Edited to say I only put the right amount of pellets in so there is a lot of room for the pellets to move between the blades/fins (not sure what the uprights are called)

Oh, that's really clever! I'm glad it seems to work, even though they still chase you to the bowl. I'd love to see a video if you can get one.

 

[Cuthbert&Dillon]

Oh, that's really clever! I'm glad it seems to work, even though they still chase you to the bowl. I'd love to see a video if you can get one.

 

[Zoobec]

I suppose it’s finding what works for your bunnies best. Bowls of pellets have always caused issues in my bunnies, but scatter feeding has always been ok.

 

[a reader of books]

I suppose it’s finding what works for your bunnies best. Bowls of pellets have always caused issues in my bunnies, but scatter feeding has always been ok.

Yes, I guess every bunny and every couple is different, so it's just a matter of trying out different things.

 

[a reader of books]

This morning I gave them their Fibafirst sticks, and after that Sophie conveniently went into the living room, so I gave her a bowl of pellets there, and gave Casper a bowl of pellets in the bunny room, and there was no aggression at all. I can't remember how long it's been since they had such a peaceful breakfast. But... Casper hasn't eaten all his pellets, and I don't know if it's a teeth thing or because he's confused about where Sophie went and why his pellets are suddenly in a bowl. I gave him some dried plantain (his favourite) and he eagerly ate all of that, and he did finish most of his Fibafirst sticks (he often leaves some since he just doesn't like them that much, but then he'll eat the rest later). So... I'll just keep an eye on him.

 

[a reader of books]

Update: He has eaten his pellets now, so I think he's okay.