Pumpkin and Snow Drop bonding help requested!

[RoRoUK]

I should start by saying that this is a long post!

I am bonding my sweet and cutsie bunnies Pumpkin and Snow Drop. Things have been going really well (mostly) but I need some help knowing the signs of an early bond and what to do at this point.

Here is the story so far:

I've had Pumpkin (male dwarf lop, gentle, affectionate, easy going, thoughtful) for a year and got Snow Drop (female mini lop, whirlwind, crazy, hyper, highly sociable) from a rescue in January (she had been spayed about a month previously). Both are about 13 months old.

I tried to put them together quite soon afterwards but it was still too soon after Pumpkin's op; he was too hormonal and Snow Drop pulled fur in response!

I tried a month after his neutering and put them into a huge cardboard box in my music room on neutral ground for daily visits. These visits included much mounting by both of them, often with a nip thrown in by Snow Drop or a fur pull and I would have to intervene. Eventually, Pumpkin began to groom Snow Drop and they started to lie down together, though her nipping continued.

Pumpkin lived in the sitting room and Snow Drop lived in the dining room so I decided to decrease their territory and put them in their cages side by side in the hallway and only let them out to meet in the cardboard box. However, both were bored and miserable and not able to exercise.

A friend suggested I move both cages into the sitting room and alternate with letting them out in there. This of course had been Pumpkin's territory for a year but it did mean both would get to have exercise and human attention and so over the next several weeks I let one out and then the other during the course of the day/evening, so that both got to know the sitting room and know that it was shared space and that the other was in there too. I also bought a massive new mat which arrived before I moved them in there which was new for Pumpkin. In the evenings I would put them together with me in a pen in the centre of the room for a few minutes so that they would continue to have daily visits until I could commit to a 3 day solid bonding session. In the pen things generally went well. Some mounting by both of them, grooming by both of them, still some nipping from Snow Drop but I kept things calm.

After a few weeks of doing this I then on Sunday at 4pm I embarked upon what I planned to be a three day supervised bonding time with the understanding that after this time they will never be separated again and will be besets friends. So, I have been giving them constant supervision since Sunday afternoon which, as I write this, puts them at 88 hours together since I started!

I put them both in the pen in the sitting room with new toys, food, hay, litter, water and I stayed out of the pen. I watched them closely and they got on pretty well.

Snow Drop did most of the mounting at the start and most of the grooming but then it changed so that Pumpkin was doing all the mounting and along with it lots of grooming. At certain times he might as well have been called Humpkin but he always accompanied mounting with lots of grooming and although some chasing went on often she was happy enough to let him mount her. On a few occasions, Snow Drop would nip if the mounting got too much and Pumpkin would stop. As time went on, just turning her head around to him would signal she was not impressed and Pumpkin would comply and get off.

At times, Snow Drop would also nip to assert some dominance. When she did nip Pumpkin, he would give her a little nip back and it seemed to stop there and not escalate. Again, as time went on, if Snow Drop nipped Pumpkin, he would be more likely to turn to her to say 'no' instead of nip her back.

At 68 hours I set them free into the whole sitting room (which I had sprayed and neutralised that morning) and also introduced a thoroughly disinfected and scent free cage with cleansed litter trays and hay.

This increase of space went really well and for 12 hours they both went to the other one for company, relaxed and slept side by side, both asked for grooming and received it from the other and both have freely groomed the other one without even being asked.

It seems there has been no noticeable fur pulled, no injuries, no frightened rabbits and I am really grateful and blessed to see them getting on so well for the most part.

However, last night (Wednesday) after midnight Snow Drop mounted Pumpkin's face and he lunged at her and nipped her. It happened very fast and there was some sort of scuffle and I intervened with a loud 'no' and held them apart (not easy). I got the pen out and put them back in there and they were fine with each other.

So here we are at 8am Thursday, 88 hours of constant supervision with them still in the pen (which they will be in for the immediate future). I have spent 4 nights on the floor and although I work from home which means I can monitor them I am starting to wonder if they will ever figure it out and if I will ever be able to leave the room?!

The latest:

This morning (Thursday) there was a lot of Snow Drop pushing her head in his side/back as though she was going to nip him and Pumpkin doing the same and the two of them kind of going clockwise in a circle of 'I might nip you'. I haven't really see this before this morning and perhaps it is a positive non-violent way of asserting dominance which looks probably worse than it is but all the time I am having to watch that nothing escalates.

Pumpkin is still having bouts of relentless mounting and although she allows it there has been some chasing and Snow Drop is still likely to give a little nip. Both of these can potentially escalate and who knows what will happen if she decides to mount again. They are still meeting head to head with 'groom me' requests so I guess they have not totally established a hierarchy.

Oh here we go, another mounting and grooming and mounting again from Pumpkin and Snow Drop has turned and nipped him and he has stopped. Okay…. and another, this time she has just turned to say 'no' to him… and another …. I have intervened to calmly stop it…. and another intervention… oh and another!

To add to the mix Pumpkin is on medication for dental issues and his chewing has got a little worse again over the past couple of days. I am not sure that he is in actual pain (probably discomfort) but he is not eating much hay and really needs to. Obviously I want him to be well but additionally I don't want his chewing issues to have an effect on the bonding.

If I get a chance I will upload some of the cute pics I have on my camera of them chilling together. They do genuinely enjoy each other's company.


So, my questions are:

Is Pumpkin ever going to stop mounting Snow Drop?!

Are they ever going to figure it out? Is there hope?

Are they both 'top bunny' and do you ever get a situation where two 'alpha' bunnies can be bonded, or two very closely matched ones can get on?

What should I be seeing or no longer be seeing which tells me a bond is there/strengthening and which would mean I can leave them alone for increasing periods of time without direct supervision?

Will I ever get a night's sleep again?

I suppose it is an inexact science and a bond once made then strengthens over time and is reinforced by all the positives they experience together. It may sound like I am being overly cautious as to look at them much of the time you would think they have been best pals for years. It is just in those very few instances where nipping occurs that concern me, probably based on the fur pulling I saw way back weeks ago, and Pumpkin's relentless bouts of mounting.

Thank you so much for any wisdom you would be able to give. I am totally knackered and delirious and need to get on with my work but I love my bunnies and the sacrifice of a few days to facilitate a good bond is worth every minute (plus I got to see lots of really cute moments!).

 

[RoRoUK]

Update, massive fight, boo hoo

Oh no, i just left the room to clean my teeth and i heard it kicking off downstairs. I got down to see them fighting and fur everywhere... as far as i can tell both of their fur but definitely Pumpkin's.

I shouted no and made a loud noise and this didn't break it up so I picked Pumpkin up and put him outside of the pen.

Now they are separate. I cant see any injuries, I just can't believe this... and the amount of fur pulled. I guess I need to check Pumpkin over and put them back together again and not leave their side for a good while.

Boo hoo.

 

[RoRoUK]

dunno what to do..

So, now they are together again in the pen, i've decreased the pen size and they are sitting like a pair of slippers by each other... but boo hoo, Pumpkin has been bitten on his ear and has a very small cut.

I seriously don't know what to do. I am thinking this bond is too evenly matched? I can't watch them forever and I can't believe they fought on one of the rare occasions when I left the room. What would've happened if I had not intervened?

How do you know when a bond isn't going to work? They really do enjoy each other's company but I can't have them together if there is the potential for it to kick off at any second.

 

[Mrs. Bunnykins]

Sorry I can't be offering advice at the moment.

I am trying to bond Estelle and Frankie at the moment.

Didn't want you to think you are on your own.


Very stressful, demanding.....................hang on in there............I am, just about!!!

 

[GrahamL]

I'm finding it really hard to read your post, but think i've got the gist.

Basically, it sounds like you've expanded their space, much too quickly.

A bond is dynamic, theres no 'rule' but a few guidelines.

Get them back in the pen. Do NOT expand it until they have been happily together for 48 hours without a fight (fur pulling, nipping and chasing does not count as a fight) then increase the space by ~2-4sqft, no more.

Then another 48-72hrs and expand again, slowly but surely.

Keep it slow, and calm.

Well done for asking

A bond actually takes months to solidify, but the basics should take ~2 weeks give or take. Each bond is different, depending on the personailities of the rabbits.

 

[RoRoUK]

space

Thanks Graham for your advice and info,

Yes, I had them in a pen for almost three days straight and then gave them the rest of the room at 68 hours. There had been no fighting at all in the pen. There was a scuffle after 12 hours in the room - 80 hours together - (still only nipping but I broke it up as it looked like it was going somewhere) and then I immediately put them back in the pen.

It was in the pen that the fight broke out this morning ... which is the first time i have seen fur fly since i started on Sunday and sadly the first injury i have seen (Pumpkin's ear ) ... I then decreased the size of the pen to force them to get on and they will not be going anywhere soon!

They are now sitting like a pair of slippers again, though not quite together!


@ Mrs Bunnykins, I hope your buns are doing well today!

 

[janice]

I have read through your post but am quite confused about what has happened.
The jist I think is that you have 2 rabbits male / female neutered.

You have had them side by side in your sitting room and have recently put them into a pen in the middle of the sitting room in a pen and then after a few days neutralised the room and let them have the whole room to run about in. After a period of time they have kicked off.

If this is the case. My comments are that your initial bonding done in the sitting room would be in 'their' territory which is not advisable and it is better to choose a new area to bond them which does not look like their area and the room does not smell of their area. After this you have rapidly increased their space into a 'neutralised' area, when I bond rabbits I will only increase their space by approximately 2 square feet every 48 hours if they are settled and have not fought.

I would advise finding an area where neither have been for a while, maybe your hall which has thoroughly been cleaned and descented. Then to reset up a pen and place them in an area which is approximately 4 x 2 foot, then only increase the space my a small amount if they are settled.

If you are moving them back into the sitting room and your flooring is carpet you will need to ensure that you have cleaned it with a carpet cleaner allowing the room to be well ventilated afterwards and left for a good few days before allowing them back onto it. I assume that things like chair legs and skirting were wiped down.

You are correct in saying that bonding is not an exact science, some bunnies take longer to sort out their heirachy whilst others sort out things very quickly. I have bonded hundreds of rabbits over the years and they are all different which is why something will work for one bonding but not another. The important thing is to react to each situation quckly and efffectively ensuring that all eventualities are covered so that adequate time is available to complete a bonding sucessfully.

 

[Babsie]

I have read through your post but am quite confused about what has happened.
The jist I think is that you have 2 rabbits male / female neutered.

You have had them side by side in your sitting room and have recently put them into a pen in the middle of the sitting room in a pen and then after a few days neutralised the room and let them have the whole room to run about in. After a period of time they have kicked off.

If this is the case. My comments are that your initial bonding done in the sitting room would be in 'their' territory which is not advisable and it is better to choose a new area to bond them which does not look like their area and the room does not smell of their area. After this you have rapidly increased their space into a 'neutralised' area, when I bond rabbits I will only increase their space by approximately 2 square feet every 48 hours if they are settled and have not fought.

I would advise finding an area where neither have been for a while, maybe your hall which has thoroughly been cleaned and descented. Then to reset up a pen and place them in an area which is approximately 4 x 2 foot, then only increase the space my a small amount if they are settled.

If you are moving them back into the sitting room and your flooring is carpet you will need to ensure that you have cleaned it with a carpet cleaner allowing the room to be well ventilated afterwards and left for a good few days before allowing them back onto it. I assume that things like chair legs and skirting were wiped down.

You are correct in saying that bonding is not an exact science, some bunnies take longer to sort out their heirachy whilst others sort out things very quickly. I have bonded hundreds of rabbits over the years and they are all different which is why something will work for one bonding but not another. The important thing is to react to each situation quckly and efffectively ensuring that all eventualities are covered so that adequate time is available to complete a bonding sucessfully.

Do you think it would be helpful if the OP contacted the rescue where Snow Drop came from to ask if they could do the initial bonding whilst the house is made 'neutral'? Just a thought.

 

[janice]

Do you think it would be helpful if the OP contacted the rescue where Snow Drop came from to ask if they could do the initial bonding whilst the house is made 'neutral'? Just a thought.

It would be an option provided that the rescue does bondings. If this is not an option bonding in a room with a nice hard floor which can be easily wiped down prior to use where the rabbits have not spent a lot of time would be helpful.

Whilst the rabbits are out of the room neutralising all areas in the rest of the house would be advisable.

By the sound of what has been said the main reason that the rabbits kicked off is probably related to them being given far to much space too quickly. Therefore rebonding in a totally neutral space going very slowly would probably lead to a good bond fairly easily.

 

[The Duchess]

It would be an option provided that the rescue does bondings. If this is not an option bonding in a room with a nice hard floor which can be easily wiped down prior to use where the rabbits have not spent a lot of time would be helpful.

Whilst the rabbits are out of the room neutralising all areas in the rest of the house would be advisable.

By the sound of what has been said the main reason that the rabbits kicked off is probably related to them being given far to much space too quickly. Therefore rebonding in a totally neutral space going very slowly would probably lead to a good bond fairly easily.

They do Janice but it wasn't offered is my understanding.

Janice if you fancy helping out, Rosie lives a few minutes from me - I just haven't gotten a slot to do this bond for her in the next month. I think that she could certainly get there with this herself if she has the time to spend, but it would obviously be better done somewhere totally neutral, provided that when they go home, that it's managed correctly and doesn't fail because of the territory issues or space provided.

 

[janice]

They do Janice but it wasn't offered is my understanding.

Janice if you fancy helping out, Rosie lives a few minutes from me - I just haven't gotten a slot to do this bond for her in the next month. I think that she could certainly get there with this herself if she has the time to spend, but it would obviously be better done somewhere totally neutral, provided that when they go home, that it's managed correctly and doesn't fail because of the territory issues or space provided.

I should be able to do this sometime in April. Have a trio and a pair the weekend after next and a 'complex' bonding to do my next long weekend. If Rosie would like help I should be able to do mid to later April.

 

[RoRoUK]

...they look like angels dem bunnies

Thank you all so much for your comments.

Janice, yes, that is what i did with the set up.

Yes, The Duchess is right, the place I got them from did not offer me bonding and it is quite a long way from me.

Janice, I would be grateful for any help (but seriously no pressure!).

Yep, I have a wooden floor and rugs which were thoroughly washed and descented … but of course they were in the pen in the centre of this room.

Since the fight they have behaved well in the pen which has been dramatically reduced in size and both have been a bit sheepish all day, which rabbits intriguingly can be! They have been grooming one another and generally look like angels but I feel a tad frayed from substantial sleep depravation (due to 4 days on the floor and severe sinusitis the week before!) and because of the unknown potential for fisty paws.

I think i did give them too much room too quickly… I also suspect that they are both convinced they are top bunny and am wondering if this can even be a match.

 

[janice]

Since the fight they have behaved well in the pen which has been dramatically reduced in size and both have been a bit sheepish all day, which rabbits intriguingly can be! They have been grooming one another and generally look like angels but I feel a tad frayed from substantial sleep depravation (due to 4 days on the floor and severe sinusitis the week before!) and because of the unknown potential for fisty paws.

I think i did give them too much room too quickly… I also suspect that they are both convinced they are top bunny and am wondering if this can even be a match.

If they are currently together and quiet, just keep them together and do not change anything in location or size. As you have found out it is better to go really slow than try and push things to quickly ... like any relationship!

If they dont settle let me know and I will sort out my next long weekend off work to have them over with me to bond them.

 

[RoRoUK]

thanks

Janice, thank you so much for your kind offer to help bond Pumpkin and Snow Drop. Thank you also for your advice.

I just had a chat with The Duchess and am grateful for the wisdom she has imparted too.

In light of this I am feeling much more confident with continuing to bond them and am hopeful that they will be very happy together ... they are in their confined space and have been grooming each other and flopping and looking extremely happy and are asleep now with their heads together. I will definitely go very slowly with increasing their space this time!

 

[The Duchess]

Been to see these two buns this evening and Rosie has done a great job on bonding them. I think she's done well and it was just a question of space being increased slightly too quickly. Both rabbits are very happy with each other having given each other washes and lots of happy flopping too.

So Janice, I think you can rest easy for the time being - I feel it has been cracked.

I could however very easily have stolen both rabbits - a gorgeous tan lop boy and an scrumptious blue eyed white lop girlie (squeeeeeeee).

Sure Rosie will put up pictures in due course when the happily married couple move into married quarters.

 

[RoRoUK]

...dem bunnies iz getting along

Many thanks to the Duchess for your visit, help and wisdom... the bunnies both told me that you would be welcome to come by any time

They are both doing well this morning, though when I came down at 8am Pumpkin was sitting in the litter tray and a tiny amount of his fur had been pulled. Snow Drop did one bottom nip shortly afterwards and Pumpkin thumped and growled but they've both groomed each other a little and are doing fine.

I will make sure I take things very slowly... I think they are both still convinced they are top bunny so although they love each other, I guess they still have some hierarchical issues to resolve.

Thanks so much for the hay, Snow Drop's poos have indeed gone more golden and Pumpkin has eaten a little too, despite his tendency not to.

I am going to create an album of bonding pics which I'll put up here shortly and I will indeed take some more photos when they eventually get the run of the room again.