New bunny sneezing. No other symptoms - UD: Bordetella bronchiseptica :/

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Hello everyone,
Been a little while since I posted here. We adopted a new bunny a couple of days ago - a beautiful little black lionhead, app 2 - 2 1/2 months old, with the sweetest personality. She appears to be healthy in every way and has already settled in like she's always lived here. Everything seemed normal except for one thing - she keeps sneezing. I noticed it once before we got her but she'd just been in the hay so I was hoping it was the dust from the hay, but she's still doing it. We have since found out she was treated for a respiratory problem before we got her. She went up to the vet this evening who has put her on Sulfatrim for 10 days, though said he couldn't see anything wrong with her and that her lungs etc sound normal. He's taken a swab, but we won't get results for at least a week.
We've got her separated from the other bunnies, but I'm still a bit worried as we don't know what it is yet. If it is pasturella/snuffles, how easy would it be for the others to catch it? We're washing our hands after handling her and trying not to let her things come in contact with the other bunnies, but she has been in the same room (now moved to another room away from the other bunnies).
I know she's seen a vet but he's not the vet we usually see and I'm not 100% convinced about his rabbit knowledge. I asked him about the antibiotics and if they were penicillin based (before I knew what they were) and he said no, but didn't seem to see the problem with penicillin unless she had an allergy to it. My understanding was that penicillin is generally considered unsafe for rabbits and shouldn't be given at all, unless something's changed? I'm not sure what it is, but there's just some doubt in my mind about his rabbit knowledge. I could be completely wrong.
Aside from the sneezing there are no other symptoms that I can see. I've been checking her nose but it appears to be dry (maybe ever so slightly damp at times, but it's hard to tell). Eyes look good and bright with no tearing. She's not keen on me checking her paws but I can't see any matting in the fur between her front paws - something the vet never even checked.
What do you all think? Does it sound like snuffles to you? Or maybe an allergy? She was on sawdust/woodshavings bedding before we got her but now has megazorb litter, a blanket and as of tomorrow (assuming it arrives) vetbed to line the floor of the cage. So aside from hay her environment is different now, and she's still sneezing.
Thanks

 

[biscandmatt1]

i think you're right about the lack of bunny knowledge. i don't know what sulfatrim is and a sample is usually taken from deep in the nose, otherwise you usually won't get any result from it. bisc and matt had penicillin injections though. injections are a safe way to give it.

some say respiratory infections are very contagious however our exotics vet says it depends on the individual they are housed with and how their immune system responds. for example, bisc and matt both had respiratory infections however they were different strains. like if all your family got an infection, you'd all respond in different ways. so i wouldn't separate already bonded pairs, however if she is alone then i'd keep her that way until you have done the next treatment course.

both bisc and matt had upper respiratory infections - matt had a very wet nose, however bisc had a relatively dry nose most of the time with it sometimes being damp. so it could well be an infection.

sensitivities can produce similar symptoms, however true allergies are rare. but the woodshavings definitely wouldn't have helped. megazorb became quite dusty a while ago and i had to switch my two to something else as it was making them sneeze more. we switched to fitch.

perhaps see your usual vet who has more knowledge and see what they think?

 

[tonibun]

It could be the stress of going to a new home. I had a rabbit who started sneezing say when I moved him from one hutch to another. When he settled down he stopped sneezing. It could be this.

 

[cpayne]

Doughnut's just had a respiratory infection. She sneezed a few times, not a lot but I noticed her making a sort of grunting squeaking sound when eating. It then ended up more frequent. She was given 10 days course of baytril and metacam and on the 8th day it cleared up. I think most vets start rabbits on baytril as their choice of antibiotics and if it doesn't clear up go on to septrin. Maybe it was the wrong antibiotic and it hasn't cleared up properly and needs a different dose.

I would take her back to see your vet with rabbit knowledge too as I think there may well be an infection.

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

a sample is usually taken from deep in the nose, otherwise you usually won't get any result from it.

He did push it in quite deep. Poor little thing hated it (can't blame her!). It looked just as clean coming out as when it went in though, so maybe a good sign?

bisc and matt had penicillin injections though. injections are a safe way to give it.

Yeah, this was my understanding of it.

some say respiratory infections are very contagious however our exotics vet says it depends on the individual they are housed with and how their immune system responds. for example, bisc and matt both had respiratory infections however they were different strains. like if all your family got an infection, you'd all respond in different ways. so i wouldn't separate already bonded pairs, however if she is alone then i'd keep her that way until you have done the next treatment course.

Makes sense. The other thing I've read recently is that snuffles is actually a term used for several different infections? So I suppose some are probably worse than others anyway.
Everyone else is just as they were, it's just her that's been quarantined. I'm hoping to bond her to my lone male but as he isn't neutered yet (too young) and she hasn't been spayed yet (again, too young) I'm not introducing them yet anyway! I'm sure they'll make a good match. I just hope she hasn't got anything long-term that means she will remain contagious

the woodshavings definitely wouldn't have helped. megazorb became quite dusty a while ago and i had to switch my two to something else as it was making them sneeze more. we switched to fitch.

perhaps see your usual vet who has more knowledge and see what they think?

I know, that's why I got her away from them as soon as she'd settled in. The megazorb is only in her litter tray and the tray has a wire guard over it, but you're right, it is a little dusty. I try to let it settle before using it. The first bag I bought was great but since then I've found it dustier. Are you getting on with Fitch? May I ask where you buy it (if it's online)? We're running low on megazorb now anyway, so maybe I'll try it out.

perhaps see your usual vet who has more knowledge and see what they think?

Well this is the thing.. He's the head vet! I'm not sure if the other vet is still there as I haven't seen her. I'll give Lunar a few days and if there's no improvement, or if she gets worse, I'll call again and see if she's still there. If not I may look for another one. It's a shame because they looked after my older two really well there through their spays. I was so pleased with the rabbit knowledge the vet and nurses had that I decided we'd make them our permanent vet for all the bunnies. He's the first person there that I've had any doubt in.
I do know of another who is very good. I just wasn't keen on going back there as that was where I took Willow when she went to sleep I didn't want to go back in that room.

It could be the stress of going to a new home. I had a rabbit who started sneezing say when I moved him from one hutch to another. When he settled down he stopped sneezing. It could be this.

I did wonder that myself as I'd read that stress can cause sneezing, but I don't think it's stress related. Can always hope, though, as at least that's not going to hurt her long-term! She's already settled in like she owns the place :lol:

Maybe it was the wrong antibiotic and it hasn't cleared up properly and needs a different dose.

I would take her back to see your vet with rabbit knowledge too as I think there may well be an infection.

Unfortunately I don't know what she was treated with before I got her as they never told us. Just that she was treated for a respiratory infection. From what I've looked up about snuffles Baytril does seem to be more commonly used than Sulfatrim so a little surprised that he's tried that first but I suppose all vets are different.
I'll try her with it for a while as long as she doesn't get any worse/show any other symptoms and if there isn't any improvement in a little while I'll call them and see if there other vet is still there. If she is I'll take Lunar to see her as I'm not entirely convinced the Sulfatrim is going to work.

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Oh, just thought of something else I meant to ask. Would it be safe to give her a very small amount of fruit puree at her age? And I do mean barely any.
I'm having a lot of trouble getting her to take the Sulfatrim. She is really fighting the syringe. Someone else on here suggested I use some Ella's Kitchen fruit puree to get Maple and Jazzie to have their metacam after their spay and it worked for them, so I was wondering if I could coat just the end of the syringe in fruit puree for Lunar in the hopes it would fool her into believing it was something less nasty-tasting. I know she's a little young, but I would only coat the end of the syringe to get it in her mouth. What do you think?

 

[biscandmatt1]

the term snuffles is very general. some infections are pasturella, some bordatella and some a mix of different bacteria's.

i really like fitch. it's very soft and dust free. it's only in stock in the small bales at the moment which are not great cost wise but i use it for bisc's litter trays and he does well on it http://www.fitchrecycling.co.uk/animal-bedding/fitch-pet-bedding.html - you could also try bed mats/puppy pads with hay over the top aswell.

i'm not sure about the fruit puree to be honest. hopefully someone else can advise :wave:

 

[cpayne]

I don't know I always put meds on a bit of weetabix of they like that or a tiny bit of herb or banana? Most bunnies like metacam as it's so sweet, not sure about the antibiotic you are given. I would mix the medicine with whatever she likes to eat or something with a strong smell so she can't smell it!

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

cpayne: Is weetabix safe for a rabbit? Normally I avoid those sorts of human food-type things for the bunnies (unless they find them on the floor before I can pick them up )

Most bunnies like metacam as it's so sweet, not sure about the antibiotic you are given. I would mix the medicine with whatever she likes to eat or something with a strong smell so she can't smell it!

Tell that to my Jazzie :lol: I had a nightmare getting her to take it. Like Lunar with the Sulfatrim she stubbornly refused it. Not easy when you're trying to be delicate with her after an operation, either. Maple did eventually discover she loved it, though. She was awkward for a while but then suddenly realized she loved the taste. She actually got excited when she knew it was time for her next dose :lol:

The problem with Lunar is by day 2 she had already figured out what the syringe was and what was in it. As soon as it comes out she tries to scramble up (or into the hood/pocket/sleeve of) my top. Last night she spent a good 5mins hiding just her face in my hood to avoid the syringe :roll:
I'm still taking it slow with her regarding new foods. I haven't given her any sugary treats like fruit or raisins yet as I imagined she was too young?

___

Well, still not heard from the vet. Not sure how long it takes to get results from a swab, though he seemed to agree when we asked if it would be about a week, so if we haven't heard by tomorrow afternoon we're going to call.
It's very hard to tell if the antibiotics are making any difference so far. Lunar is still sneezing, though I can't tell if it's about the same or if it has eased at all. She's certainly bright enough though, but then she has been since we first brought her through the door. I don't know if any bunny has ever settled in so quickly! I am feeling very guilty now about bringing a new bunny home without knowing she possibly had snuffles, but I just can't regret getting her. She's so sweet and loving but with a playful side.
She's still not showing any other symptoms. If it weren't for the sneezing I'd say she's a perfect, healthy bunny. She's got a lovely glossy coat and bright, clean eyes.
I am hoping in a way that it's an allergy, at least that isn't contagious. We did notice that she sneezed a couple of times after we put the towel down on the bed (the other bunnies play up there so we put a large towel down when she goes up there). A bit of dust/fluff/whatever-it-is-that-comes-off-of-towels went into the air just before that so maybe that could support the theory of a dust allergy? She still has megazorb in her litter tray at the moment but I'm going to take biscandmatt1's advice and try her on some Fitch.

I decided to risk the fruit puree as she was being such a pain with taking the Sulfatrim and bought the apple, carrot and pear. I've tried apple and carrot.
She isn't fooled. She still knows what's in there and refuses it straight away :roll: I thought the others were bad but this is one stubborn bunny. I can only imagine it must taste awful. The face she pulls afterwards certainly seems to support that :lol:.

If (and I'm still hoping it'll come back negative) it is snuffles, will it still be safe spay her? I wanted to get her done in a couple of months when she was old enough but I'm now worried. How much of an increased risk is there for her going under anesthetic if she's got snuffles? Is it worth it vs the cancer risk?
And if I do still get her spayed, can she ever be bonded to another bunny? Or will they definitely end up with it too?
As I mentioned before, after reading about how contagious it was I moved her into another room and I'm taking all sorts of precautions like changing clothes after handling her. Will I always have to do this? Of course I'm willing to do whatever it takes to keep her and the other bunnies safe, but it makes it more difficult and means she can't run around the house like the others can
Am I being too paranoid?

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Update :/
My Mum called the vet today. Apparantly she has Bordetella bronchiseptica. That's one of the bacteria associated with snuffles, isn't it?
She has an appointment late monday evening with the vet.
What will this mean for her and the other rabbits? Will I always have to maintain these quarantine precautions? Does this mean I can never bond her to one of the others without passing it onto them?
Will it be safe to spay her? I know snuffles increases the anesthetic risk. Do you think the cancer risk outweighs the risk of anesthetic? I will ask the vet again but I would really value some opinions. I know it's impossible to know for certain. I just want all the information I can get so that I can do whatever is best for her.
In terms of how she is today she's still sneezing but otherwise she's a bouncy, playful, sweet little bunny. Absolutely nothing that would indicate there was anything wrong with her.
Is there anything else that I should know?
Thank you all so much for your help

Edit: Also, does anyone know how long the bacteria can live on objects etc? Can I exercise her in the same rooms the other bunnies use?

Edit again: Something's just occurred to me. I know nothing about this really so please forgive me if I jsut sound stupid, but.. From what I've been reading this is the same bacteria that causes kennel cough in dogs. Dogs can be vaccinated against kennel cough. Why can't the same vaccine be used for rabbits? Is it unsafe for them?

 

[tonibun]

You make a lot of good points but I can't be of much help. Maybe start another thread? I think it might be worth considering not having her spayed as this could (I am no health expert) exacerbate her condition. I hope she can go on to lead a reasonably happy life.

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Update :/
My Mum called the vet today. Apparantly she has Bordetella bronchiseptica. That's one of the bacteria associated with snuffles, isn't it?
She has an appointment late monday evening with the vet.
What will this mean for her and the other rabbits? Will I always have to maintain these quarantine precautions? Does this mean I can never bond her to one of the others without passing it onto them?
Will it be safe to spay her? I know snuffles increases the anesthetic risk. Do you think the cancer risk outweighs the risk of anesthetic? I will ask the vet again but I would really value some opinions. I know it's impossible to know for certain. I just want all the information I can get so that I can do whatever is best for her.
In terms of how she is today she's still sneezing but otherwise she's a bouncy, playful, sweet little bunny. Absolutely nothing that would indicate there was anything wrong with her.
Is there anything else that I should know?
Thank you all so much for your help

Edit: Also, does anyone know how long the bacteria can live on objects etc? Can I exercise her in the same rooms the other bunnies use?

Edit again: Something's just occurred to me. I know nothing about this really so please forgive me if I jsut sound stupid, but.. From what I've been reading this is the same bacteria that causes kennel cough in dogs. Dogs can be vaccinated against kennel cough. Why can't the same vaccine be used for rabbits? Is it unsafe for them?

Bordetella Bronchiseptica is a bacteria many, many Rabbits carry in their respiratory tract at a sub-clinical level-ie the bacteria does not cause symptoms. It usually only causes clinical disease if there is another pathogen present too, eg Pasteurella multocida. Bordetella is much more of an issue for Guinea Pigs as it frequently causes pneumonia which is often fatal. Another reason not to keep Rabbits and GPs in the same environment.

There is some detailed facts about Bordetella on these links:

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Bacterial/Bordatella_bronchiseptica_Inf_HHog.htm

https://www.vetstream.com/lapis/Content/Freeform/Fre00333

 

[MightyMax]

Update :/
My Mum called the vet today. Apparantly she has Bordetella bronchiseptica. That's one of the bacteria associated with snuffles, isn't it?
She has an appointment late monday evening with the vet.
What will this mean for her and the other rabbits? Will I always have to maintain these quarantine precautions? Does this mean I can never bond her to one of the others without passing it onto them?
Will it be safe to spay her? I know snuffles increases the anesthetic risk. Do you think the cancer risk outweighs the risk of anesthetic? I will ask the vet again but I would really value some opinions. I know it's impossible to know for certain. I just want all the information I can get so that I can do whatever is best for her.
In terms of how she is today she's still sneezing but otherwise she's a bouncy, playful, sweet little bunny. Absolutely nothing that would indicate there was anything wrong with her.
Is there anything else that I should know?
Thank you all so much for your help

Edit: Also, does anyone know how long the bacteria can live on objects etc? Can I exercise her in the same rooms the other bunnies use?

Edit again: Something's just occurred to me. I know nothing about this really so please forgive me if I jsut sound stupid, but.. From what I've been reading this is the same bacteria that causes kennel cough in dogs. Dogs can be vaccinated against kennel cough. Why can't the same vaccine be used for rabbits? Is it unsafe for them?

It's good you've had identification of the bacteria present. Just like pasturella and (some would say) mites, rabbits often live with this in their systems, and when they are run down, the bacteria take a hold.

Have you thought, or discussed with your vet, giving echinacea (alongside any antibiotics your vet prescribes) to boost her immune system?

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

You make a lot of good points but I can't be of much help. Maybe start another thread? I think it might be worth considering not having her spayed as this could (I am no health expert) exacerbate her condition. I hope she can go on to lead a reasonably happy life.

Thanks. I must admit I'm wondering about it. I will discuss it with the vet when she goes. I hope I can at least get her vaccinated a little later but even that's worrying me while her immune system is low. I'll see what he thinks. I may actually take her to a second vet to get another opinion as I'm still a little wary of his rabbit knowledge. I could be completely wrong though. That's why I want to see what he says the second time.
Going to be careful though.

Bordetella Bronchiseptica is a bacteria many, many Rabbits carry in their respiratory tract at a sub-clinical level-ie the bacteria does not cause symptoms. It usually only causes clinical disease if there is another pathogen present too, eg Pasteurella multocida. Bordetella is much more of an issue for Guinea Pigs as it frequently causes pneumonia which is often fatal. Another reason not to keep Rabbits and GPs in the same environment.

There is some detailed facts about Bordetella on these links:

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Bacterial/Bordatella_bronchiseptica_Inf_HHog.htm

https://www.vetstream.com/lapis/Content/Freeform/Fre00333

Thank you so much for the information, Jack's-Jane. I've seen the second link but not the first. I will give both a thorough read.
Thankfully I don't have any guinea pigs. My dog is kept well away from the bunnies though I'm careful with him. It's the other rabbits that worry me. As you say, some can have it without showing symptoms so it's possible they've already got it.

It does make me wonder though, you say Bordatella usually only causes disease if something else is present like Pasteurella. Does that mean that since she's exhibiting symptoms she may have another bacteria present that the vet has missed?

It's good you've had identification of the bacteria present. Just like pasturella and (some would say) mites, rabbits often live with this in their systems, and when they are run down, the bacteria take a hold.

Have you thought, or discussed with your vet, giving echinacea (alongside any antibiotics your vet prescribes) to boost her immune system?

I'm pretty sure that if we can get her sneezing under control she'll be able to live with it okay. She seems so lively and happy now in spite of the sneezing. Goes through a huge amount of hay so glad she's a good hay-eater! My worry is for the other four as if they get it they may react differently.

I had been wondering about something to boost her immune system. Never heard of echinacea before - is it something available from the vet or a herbal type thing (google search shows a pink flower) that I would have to grow? I've not had the best success with plants.. If so is it easy to obtain?
I'll ask the vet about it.


Thank you so much to everyone who has taken the time to reply. The bunnies and I really appreciate it

 

[tonibun]

I think you can buy Echinacea at the chemist. Sorry that's all I know about it. You could start another thread asking for Vet recommendations near where you live. :thumb:

 

[MightyMax]

Thanks. I must admit I'm wondering about it. I will discuss it with the vet when she goes. I hope I can at least get her vaccinated a little later but even that's worrying me while her immune system is low. I'll see what he thinks. I may actually take her to a second vet to get another opinion as I'm still a little wary of his rabbit knowledge. I could be completely wrong though. That's why I want to see what he says the second time.
Going to be careful though.


I had been wondering about something to boost her immune system. Never heard of echinacea before - is it something available from the vet or a herbal type thing (google search shows a pink flower) that I would have to grow? I've not had the best success with plants.. If so is it easy to obtain?
I'll ask the vet about it.


Thank you so much to everyone who has taken the time to reply. The bunnies and I really appreciate it

You can buy echinacea here: http://www.baldwins.co.uk/baldwins-echinacea-angustifolia-herbal-fluid-extract

... and give two or three drops twice daily. I use a capsule which I open and sprinkle the herb onto food. Either way is good! Don't buy the 'caplets' (hard tablets) from Chemists or Holland and Barratt though, as you can't crush them.

 

[Kipper]

Hi sorry to hear of your little one's problem. My vet is rabbit savvy & he is starting to move away from Baytril as the 1st choice in treatment because he doesn't believe it works as well as it used to, unfortunately I can't remember what Bonbon was 1st prescribed as it was over a year ago.
I've had a couple of buns with respiratory problems, Pipkin had bordetella & lived happily with her husbun & within close proximity to my other buns for many years & none of the others caught it. My rabbit savvy vet said there was no need to keep her separate from the the others as all buns have it but thankfully not all suffer from it. My 2nd bun had Nasal Fungal disease which thankfully is very rare & again no other bun caught it. When the results of the swab cone back the vet will prescribe a drug that will work against whatever bacteria is in your bun, Baytril doesn't fight against all of them.

 

[~ILoveMyBunny~]

Just ordered one of the 1kg bags of Fitch. So far she's using everything but the litter tray anyway :roll: guess I got spoiled as my other girls all litter trained themselves extremely quickly :lol:
I'm going to keep it just for her at the moment and will buy a large bag for the other bunnies when they're back in stock. Hopefully it might help her.

Lunar went back to the vet this evening for her appointment. We saw someone else and she was absolutely fantastic, seems very knowledgeable about rabbits (and has two of her own). She asked about things like her environment, do I use sawdust etc which I thought was good as the other vet never even asked. She has confirmed that there was no other bacteria found such as pasturella. Just the bordetella. She has told me to continue with the Sulfatrim twice a day and has also put her on Baytril twice a day. I thought the Sulfatrim was bad but wow, she really hates the Baytril. :/
She's also got to have Fiberplex. This one is at least not too bad as she took most of it quite happily.
We've got to go back Saturday to see how she's doing unless anything changes before then, in which case she goes straight back up.
I haven't asked about anything like the future spay or vaccinations at this stage as she's clearly a long way off from being able to go through either and we need to get this sorted out first.
So I suppose that's all there is to say at this stage. Just got to wait and see what happens over the next few days.