my bun Fudgie is not eating enough timothy hay and is losing wt. thru out the years

[Happy Hopping]

alright, let's say we do this: last time Fudgie was under a GA, the vet told me about 10 min. in, the entire spectrum of his health drop within 1 sec. So w/ this scan, my understanding is, it only takes 1 min. or so. So the vet can use very little of those 4 compound, and put him under for only 1 min.? Or there is some not-so-clear talk about putting him in a drowsy state, I sense that is not using those 4 compound, but something lighter, has you 2 heard of it?

I also talk to the vet about those 4 compound, the problem is, w/ rabbit, he said there isn't a lot of choices, and those 4 compounds are the most common. And he said just because it happens the 1st time, it doesn't mean it will happen the 2nd time. My take is, if we are stuck w/ those 4 compound, then it will happen the 2nd time. However, since the scan only take 1 min., a much lower dosage should be enough

 

[InspectorMorse]

You need to find a Vet you trust Jason. None of us here are Veterinary qualified so we cannot tell you what the right drugs/doses would be for Fudgie. If you are not confident with your current Vet you can seek another opinion. The Vet needs to be very experienced with treating Rabbits/Rabbit dentals+anaesthesia.

 

[Happy Hopping]

So just now, I seems to run into a new problem:

The Buprenorphine of 0.3 ml per 12 hr. is given to Fudgie at 7 pm last night, it's now 6:19 am. IT was 0.2 ml every 12 hr. but there is no effect, so yesterday and today, we move to 0.3 ml per 12 hr. There is some strange behaviour / movement from him. I took him from the carpet to my desk to continue to hand feed the hay. We have a 1 hr. hay feeding gap prior. He seems to have some difficulty standing on the rear left leg. But his legs are strong, so I am guessing he's having a reaction to Buprenorphine. But it's been 11.5 hr., today is the 2.5 day he's given the drug.

Then while I was feeding the hay, he was trying to move / twist his body. So I let him on the ground

Then I want to see if he can hop properly. He hop back to his urine spot, then he rotates his body on the ground once and then sit back up.

The 1st day, the drug was given at 0.2 ml (that's called the low end of the dosage), there is absolutely no effect. So on the 2nd day, we move to 0.3 ml, and he seems to make half improvement. He's eating some pellet and some 2 blackberries on his own. Today is the 3rd day.

Now, I am reading the paper given by the vet on side effect: sedation, may cause a drop in heart rate and blood pressure, if you see any significant behaviour, appetite, respiratory or cardiac changes, contact your vet.

Could these be some sort of side effect on the drug? The vet is on a 5 days on, 4 day off program, so I can't contact him. I think for now, I'll stop giving the drug to him. I can still use metacam

Update: here's a video just now

https://youtu.be/JX1jK3lQegk

 

[Shimmer]

You really need to talk to a vet. They are the only people who can help with dosages and diagnosis.

 

[InspectorMorse]

You really need to talk to a vet. They are the only people who can help with dosages and diagnosis.

Ditto

Is there not another Vet covering the Clinic when your Vet is off?

 

[Happy Hopping]

update: I just edit the above post w/ this new video, please have a look let me know what you think:

https://youtu.be/JX1jK3lQegk

And Jane: there should be, but there isn't. There is a vet shortage. There is also a serious human doctor shortage in town as well.

 

[InspectorMorse]

update: I just edit the above post w/ this new video, please have a look let me know what you think:

https://youtu.be/JX1jK3lQegk

And Jane: there should be, but there isn't. There is a vet shortage. There is also a serious human doctor shortage in town as well.

He is showing signs of vestibular disturbance. This is NOT related to Buprenorphine. He has nystagmus ( flicking eyes) which indicates inflammation has reached the brain. Possible causes- EC or bacterial middle/ inner ear infection. Is his right ear always down? If not it’s likely to be that there is an infection in that ear. Whether it’s EC or a middle/inner ear infection he needs to be seen by a Vet TODAY. So you will need to phone around to try to find a Vet who can see him and obtain a diagnosis and appropriate treatment.

His lack of appetite is due to him feeling dizzy and poorly.

Information about EC and Middle/Inner ear infections here

*WARNING graphic images on link*
https://www.vettimes.co.uk/app/uplo...phalitozoon-cuniculi-infection-in-rabbits.pdf

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbits-and-e-cuniculi-encephalitozoon-cuniculi/

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/cuniculi/pyrimethamine.htm


https://www.rvc.ac.uk/clinical-connections/rabbit-ear-disease

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/Otit/otitis.htm

 

[Happy Hopping]

his ear is always flop down since I adopted him. So that's normal. I agree the symptoms is EC. I am shockingly surprise that his original problem is tear discharge, and we make the assumption that there is molar growing upwards. So looking back, his only symptoms was tear discharge. I assume tooth grow are now all out of the windows then?

I am reading 1 of the best book I bought: The 5 minute Veterinary Consult: Ferret and rabbits, it's definitely EC. According to the book, 80% of US and EU rabbits are serologically positive on EC, so he got it from birth. This is the very first time I have to deal w/ EC

in this city, human doctor and vet are on shortage. For eg., just recently, I have to fast for 22 hr. to get a glucose test as I wait at the clinic from 11 am to 5:30 pm plus a fasting of 12 hr.

on the vet side, before Covid, there used to be a 2 vet rotation, since then, it drops to 1. There are 2 vets that I know in the city that are rabbit specialist, I am using 1 of them. There is a 3rd one in another city, so I did email the vet, but noone is available until next Wed.

I really appreciate your help on Fudgie. I'll keep this thread update

 

[InspectorMorse]

I hope you find a Vet to give the appropriate treatment ASAP

Without diagnostics it’s impossible get a definitive diagnosis so the Vet should prescribe to treat both EC and otitis media/interna ie, Fenbendazole at a dose rate of 20mg/kg daily for a minimum of 28 days, an antibiotic and a non steroidal anti inflammatory such as meloxicam.

I would not rule out a bacterial middle/inner ear infection without diagnostic proof given that Fudgie has recently been treated for ‘some sort of infection’ and has had a gunky eye. Also, his ‘crash’ during the last GA could have been due to an undiagnosed Respiratory tract infection. RTIs are often associated with middle/inner ear infections. Middle/inner ear infections cannot always be seen by just otoscopic examination, skull radiographs/CT scans are needed. With a Rabbit who is already clinically unwell I would prefer to just treat for both infection and EC rather than risking a GA.

I would suggest the antibiotic given is not enrofloxacin again. I would suggest an injectable penicillin or Azithromycin.

Andie will need to be treated with Fenbendazole too. EC can be transmitted via spores excreted in the urine of an infected Rabbit. Hence it’s important to minimise the ingestion of urine contaminated hay. For disinfecting the environment a 10% bleach solution can be used. Obviously keeping the Rabbits out of the environment whilst cleaning, rinsing off the bleach solution and allowing the area to dry out before returning the Rabbits. I prefer to use a steam cleaner, steam kills EC spores and is safe and non toxic. There is anecdotal evidence that it might be beneficial to insure this deep clean routine is carried out on days 21 and 28 of the Fenbendazole treatment. Personally I do it daily as I don’t believe we can be certain when shedding of EC spores will occur.

Fenbendazole does not cure EC, it just reduces the number of spores circulating in the bloodstream. Flare ups of symptomatic EC can occur at times of stress. The use of Fenbendazole as a routine prophylactic 2-4 times a year is suggested by some Vets. Personally I never do this and my Rabbit Savvy Vet doesn’t recommend it and neither does the RWAF

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbits-and-e-cuniculi-encephalitozoon-cuniculi/

It is possible that symptoms will get a lot worse in the short term. This can include rolling and seizures. So the Rabbit may need to be kept in a confined, well padded space to avoid injury

This FB Group might be useful to join

https://www.facebook.com/groups/HelpforHeadTiltHoppers

Although IME some of the advice is delivered in a very aggressive way and thus unhelpful. Also, IMO the ethos of the group is very pro life at all costs. I have seen what I believe to be some unethical practices with prolonging life that has minimal quality.But that’s just my personal opinion. Others have found the group to be very helpful.

 

[Happy Hopping]

1) I just realize I have been a member of that facebook groups for years, but I never post there.

2) w/ Fudgie had that full panel blood test, how come the blood test doesn't show any sign of EC?

3) In that book, The 5 minute Veterinary Consult: Ferret and rabbits, it did say Fenbendazole is used for treatment, but it also say the whole episode of EC can go away on its own. This book, among so many other rabbit medicine book that I have, is by far, the most useful, so they should know what they are talking about?

4) his enrofloxacin was given as a pre-cautionary only as the vet is concern infection at the tooth that was pull out

5) what's the co-relation of EC vs. inner ear infection? and how does Respiratory tract infection fit into all these? in other words, are these 3 related "domino effect" style of sickness? or is RTI unrelated to the other 2? how many things are you suspecting he has?

6) enrofloxacin causes soft poo, that's why he was given pro-biotics. Does Pen G or Azithromycin causes soft poo and thus, also requires pro-biotic?

7) if he has RTI, what sort of symptoms would he has?

I am relieve that I don't need to worry about urine contaminated hay. Fudgie never sit on the hay, and since this starts, I hand feed the hay a few times on a 24 hr basis. He doesn't eat the hay on his own.

in a best case scenario, as I read cases at that Heat Tit hoppers group, there are buns that makes a full recovery, how long would it takes?

 

[InspectorMorse]

1) I just realize I have been a member of that facebook groups for years, but I never post there.

2) w/ Fudgie had that full panel blood test, how come the blood test doesn't show any sign of EC?

The Vet needs to request a specific PCR Blood test for EC, it isn’t covered in a routine full blood panel

3) In that book, The 5 minute Veterinary Consult: Ferret and rabbits, it did say Fenbendazole is used for treatment, but it also say the whole episode of EC can go away on its own. This book, among so many other rabbit medicine book that I have, is by far, the most useful, so they should know what they are talking about?

The symptoms resolve, but dormant EC spores remain in the bloodstream. They may remain dormant and never cause clinical symptoms again. Or spores might erupt into various parts of the body, usually the CNS, the kidneys and the lenses of the eyes.It is spores erupting into cells of internal structures that causes an inflammatory response which leads to clinical symptoms

4) his enrofloxacin was given as a pre-cautionary only as the vet is concern infection at the tooth that was pull out

5) what's the co-relation of EC vs. inner ear infection? and how does Respiratory tract infection fit into all these? in other words, are these 3 related "domino effect" style of sickness? or is RTI unrelated to the other 2? how many things are you suspecting he has?

The symptoms of EC and otitis media/interna are very similar. So unless full diagnostics are run - PCR blood test, skull radiographs/ CT scans-it’s impossible to be 100% certain what you are dealing with


https://www.veterinarywebinars.com/...oads/2016/03/Study_Notes_Ear_Nose_Rabbits.pdf

https://www.vettimes.co.uk/app/uplo...itis-externa-media-and-interna-in-rabbits.pdf

6) enrofloxacin causes soft poo, that's why he was given pro-biotics. Does Pen G or Azithromycin causes soft poo and thus, also requires pro-biotic?

All antibiotics have the potential to cause soft poo so it might help to give probiotics

7) if he has RTI, what sort of symptoms would he has?

If it’s an upper RTI sneezing, nasal discharge, ocular discharge. If a lower RTI then increased respiratory rate/effort, abnormal lung sounds, lethargy and general malaise, dry sneezing, anorexia, weight loss

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/Bacterial/URI.htm

https://lbah.com/rabbit/pasteurella-rabbit/

I am relieve that I don't need to worry about urine contaminated hay. Fudgie never sit on the hay, and since this starts, I hand feed the hay a few times on a 24 hr basis. He doesn't eat the hay on his own.

in a best case scenario, as I read cases at that Heat Tit hoppers group, there are buns that makes a full recovery, how long would it takes?

How long recovery/partial recovery takes is a ‘how long is a piece of string’ question. It can take many, many months. The Rabbit can get a lot worse in the early stages, intensive nursing care is needed ie syringe feeds, fluid therapy, physio, etc. Anorexia is often a feature, not eating leading to secondary gut stasis. So it’s very important to monitor gut motility

 

[Shimmer]

EC is often re-activated by stress - so any other health issue can trigger a relapse.
You still need a vet to look at the whole picture for diagnosis and treatment.

If EC is suggested by your vet, I would treat it. It can cause a lot of neurological damage but treatment is relatively cheap and easy if caught in the early stages. It just takes a while (28 day cycle). As I understand it, treatment may not eliminate all of the parasite, but low levels are fairly usual in a lot of the rabbit population and don't cause issues under normal conditions when the rabbitis otherwise healthy. RElapses are treated the same.

 

[Happy Hopping]

so the treatment, such as panacur, among other ABX, would apply to EC or inner ear infection then?

And I don't think he has any RTI then. His only symptom is right eye discharge. And of course of the wt. loss that may very well be from EC since from some time this January till I discover back in May

 

[InspectorMorse]

EC is often re-activated by stress - so any other health issue can trigger a relapse.
You still need a vet to look at the whole picture for diagnosis and treatment.

If EC is suggested by your vet, I would treat it. It can cause a lot of neurological damage but treatment is relatively cheap and easy if caught in the early stages. It just takes a while (28 day cycle). As I understand it, treatment may not eliminate all of the parasite, but low levels are fairly usual in a lot of the rabbit population and don't cause issues under normal conditions when the rabbitis otherwise healthy. RElapses are treated the same.

My understanding (which might be wrong) is that the actual EC parasite is excreted BEFORE any clinical symptoms present. But before being excreted the parasite sheds spores into the bloodstream which circulate in a dormant state. Then sometimes the spores will erupt into various cells of the body causing clinical symptoms. So effectively it’s not the EC parasite that causes ‘active’ EC but the eruptions of the spores it leaves behind.

https://www.dovepress.com/encephali...-manageme-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-VMRR

 

[Happy Hopping]

Jane:

a few quick questions:

1) in your other post, you said not to use enrofloxacin again, how come?

2) on what you wrote as well as on the "The 5 min. veterinary consult : rabbit / ferret", you both in favor of Fenbendazole. But strangely, I'm at that heat tilt facebook group, so many of them is using Panacur. I wonder why?

As to my bun, I think it's most likely EC than inner ear infection. I am reading the 5 min. vet consult, under Otitis Exerna and Media section, it says "rabbits w/ otitis externa/media may hold the ear down or tilt the head due to pain. This must be differentiated from a head tilt caused by heat tilt caused by lesions affected the vestibular apparatus. Rabbit w/ vestibular dysfunction demonstrate nystagmus, torticollis, ataxia, in addition to head tilt

Now Fudgie very rarely scratch his ear, so if this is an ear infection of any kind, surely he would scratch the ear at least a few times

 

[InspectorMorse]

Jane:

a few quick questions:

1) in your other post, you said not to use enrofloxacin again, how come?

Because it is seldom effective with middle/inner ear infections, IME

2) on what you wrote as well as on the "The 5 min. veterinary consult : rabbit / ferret", you both in favor of Fenbendazole. But strangely, I'm at that heat tilt facebook group, so many of them is using Panacur. I wonder why?

Panacur is Fenbendazole, Panacur is just the brand name. Another brand of Fenbendazole is Lapizole.

As to my bun, I think it's most likely EC than inner ear infection. I am reading the 5 min. vet consult, under Otitis Exerna and Media section, it says "rabbits w/ otitis externa/media may hold the ear down or tilt the head due to pain. This must be differentiated from a head tilt caused by heat tilt caused by lesions affected the vestibular apparatus. Rabbit w/ vestibular dysfunction demonstrate nystagmus, torticollis, ataxia, in addition to head tilt

Now Fudgie very rarely scratch his ear, so if this is an ear infection of any kind, surely he would scratch the ear at least a few times

As I keep saying, without diagnostics it’s impossible to rule out otitis media/interna

Have you arranged a Vet appointment? Getting him to a Vet is the priority now

 

[Shimmer]

These things tend to only get worse over time. Diagnosing and treating earlier tends to give a better outcome and quicker. That needs the input of a vet. No amount of books / papers / questions on RU is going to do that. It's always good to have some knowledge, but not at the expense of delaying qualified veterinary diagnostics and treatment.

 

[Happy Hopping]

I already booked the appt long ago. His soonest available date is next Wed. The shortage of rabbit savvy specialist is a problem in this city. This is 1 reason I live in the NW area, as I'm close to the vet clinic of only 15 min. drive time. I'm stuck at this house in the NW area until I die.

Meanwhile, I've the prescribe metacam, so I'll give it to Fudgie daily

 

[Happy Hopping]

so my bun Fudgie has fully recovered well within the first 17 days or so.

https://youtu.be/0ZVgn3QI9As

but I want him to regain some weight. A few people at the heat tilt rabbit group at facebook suggest this:

barley rings
pea flakes

Among them, it looks like barley rings is a good choice. Is there any problem of giving barley rings

P.S. the above video is the latest, note that his antenna is 1 up and 1 down. He's a male, so he's only half listening :lol:

 

[InspectorMorse]

If you feed him too many barley rings he’ll probably end up not eating his cecotrophs. Same with pea flakes. Alfalfa hay will help with weight gain, but if a Rabbit has a history of bladder sludge then too much alfalfa based feed isn’t a good idea.

Not sure if you can buy something like Readigrass over in Canada. It has a higher protein content than other hays etc.

Is he actually underweight ? He doesn’t look to be in the video, but the camera angle might give a false impression about that. It’s far healthier for Rabbits to be lean rather than carrying a lot of bulk.

Pellet feeds specifically for growing Rabbit can be fed if a Rabbit really is underweight. But it’s always important to make sure the Rabbit isn’t filling up on pellets and so not eating enough hay. That would just cause more problems.