• Forum/Server Upgrade If you are reading this you have made it to the upgraded forum. Posts made on the old forum after 26th October 2023 have not been transfered. Everything else should be here. If you find any issues please let us know.

  • Please Note - Medical Advice

    Please keep in mind that posts on this forum are from members of the public sharing personal opinions. It is not a replacement for qualified medical advice from a veterinarian. Many illnesses share similar symptoms but require different treatments. A medical exam is necessary for an accurate diagnosis, without which appropriate treatment cannot be given.

    You should always consult your vet before following any suggestions for medication or treatment you have read about. The wrong treatment could make your rabbit worse or mean your vet is unable to give the correct treatment because of drug interactions. Even non prescription drugs can do harm if given inappropriately.

    We are very grateful to members who take time to answer other members questions, but please do be clear in your replies that you are sharing personal experience and not giving instructions on what must be done.

    Urgent Medical Advice: If you need, or think you might need, urgent medical advice you should contact a vet. If it is out of working hours phone your vet's normal number and there should be an answer phone message with instructions on what to do.

my bun Fudgie is not eating enough timothy hay and is losing wt. thru out the years

Happy Hopping said:
Now, I have an unrelated question for any of you: how does human work under pre-GA? Does it happen to human that certain compound has a reaction to a human and that human is near death? Also, does human uses the same sort of chemical compound compares to animals?
Click to expand...

Yes to all
 
update from re-check today: turns out his teeth is relatively normal. The right side is just a little long, it looks longer because the tooth before it was removed. As to the left side, just a very tiny spur.

However, on the bad side, he's not eating on his own. I have to hand feed him w/ hay. So the vet suspects it could be the root growing towards the jaw and causes discomfort. So he's given a low dosage of 0.2 ml of Buprenorphine, but so far, there is no effect. It's given to him at 5:15 pm, then Fudgie and his girlfriend was at my backyard, by 8 pm, he won't eat 1 bite of grass.

On the good side, I have fine tune some hay feeding trick so he doesn't waste the hay by biting it in half, I now feed directly into his mouth and he eats a lot of it. So he's willing to eat, and I just need to know how often to feed him.

There are other symptoms that shows this is clearly his teeth. Caught him having 1 small incident of drooling and 1 small incident of eyes liquid discharge. He also moves his mouth from time to time. So assuming it's his teeth root grows upwards, what is a long term solution and if there is no good solution, what's a rabbit average life expectancy if the teeth root grows towards the jaw?

Do they just do the round the head rad scan, and pull the teeth that grows upwards and be done with it?
 
He needs skull radiographs.
Tooth root elongation cannot be cured, only managed
TRE predisposes the development of tooth root abscesses and osteomyelitis ( infection in the jaw bone)
Extraction of effected molar teeth is seldom an option, is very major surgery which can cause the jaw to fracture. It is not something I would ever put a Rabbit through unless the molar tooth was already very lose

Unless the Vet takes skull radiographs it’s impossible to have an informed disease management plan or to give a prognosis.

Tooth root elongation can lead to constant runny eyes/ conjunctivitis, nasal discharge and sneezing, drooling causing sore skin under the chin and dewlap.

Abscesses can form along the jaw line, in the nasal passages, in the tear ducts, behind the eyeballs.

The above are all worst case scenarios

Managing TRE requires:

1- full diagnostic screening to assess the extent of TRE and provide a baseline to monitor disease progression

2- regular dentals under GA to keep the crowns of the molars short and appropriately shaped. The longer the crowns become the more TRE progresses.

2- good analgesic cover is essential. TRE can be extremely painful and pain will lead to anorexia and eventually gut stasis

3- prompt treatment for abscesses. This almost always involves surgery and long term antibiotics.

4- dietary modification and weight monitoring. Rabbits with TRE might not be able to eat hay at all. They should never be deprived foods they can eat. If they have severe TRE they will starve if they are deprived pellets etc to try to force them to eat hay.

I would suggest you make sure you are consulting a very Rabbit Savvy Vet with a vast amount of experience of treating Rabbits with Dental disease.
 
I fully back what Jane has said.

You need a fully rabbit-savvy vet who will do the skull xrays and manage the teeth accordingly - which means burring them down to remove spurs and to keep the teeth an appropriate length and shape. It really does make a big difference.

Rabbit teeth can't be removed like human teeth to sort this out. They must be managed, which means regular dentals and treatment eg for abscesses.
You need to monitor the rabbit's weight. If they can't eat a standard diet, you need to adapt it so they are eating enough to maintain weight.

I've had 2 rabbits with major dental issues and jaw abscesses. They were under the care of FHB (rabbit expert) who listed them as some of her most unusual cases, and I know she used the xrays from one as a teaching aid. They were on injectable antibiotics for abscesses and lots of pain relief. They coped really well. With an adapted diet, appropriate vet care & dentals, they both lived about another 12-18 months - which was quite a long time considering the extreme nature of their condition, and they were not young rabbits.

I've also had a 'standard' dental rabbit who went on for years with regular dentals and died age 9y of something unrelated. The intervals between his dentals varied from about 6 weeks to 9 months.
 
InspectorMorse said:
He needs skull radiographs.


2- regular dentals under GA to keep the crowns of the molars short and appropriately shaped. The longer the crowns become the more TRE progresses.


4- dietary modification and weight monitoring. Rabbits with TRE might not be able to eat hay at all. They should never be deprived foods they can eat. If they have severe TRE they will starve if they are deprived pellets etc to try to force them to eat hay.

.
Click to expand...

a few quick questions:

1) My vet and I talked about skull radiograph, he said he has to put Fudgie in a drowsy state w/ 1 of those drugs. But 1 of those drugs is the one that cause him to nearly die that day. So for now, we're trying pain killer. If we do that x-ray, and he doesn't wake up, then I'm finish

2) regarding your #2 on keep molar short and shaped, I don't understand, how does that help the root?

3) So I am giving him food that he was eating yesterday but only some of it today. On the other hand, he eats quite a lot of hay when I handfeed him. My only small problem is, when I put the food on the bowl, the other bun, his girlfriend Andi wants to eat it. So I haave to hold Andi on the desk while I hope Fudgie will eat the food. Prior to yesterday, he eats them right away. Which is why I think I should talk to the vet, as 0.2 ml is the low end of the pain killer dosage

2)
 
Shimmer said:
I fully back what Jane has said.

You need a fully rabbit-savvy vet who will do the skull xrays and manage the teeth accordingly - which means burring them down to remove spurs and to keep the teeth an appropriate length and shape. It really does make a big difference.

Rabbit teeth can't be removed like human teeth to sort this out. They must be managed, which means regular dentals and treatment eg for abscesses.
You need to monitor the rabbit's weight. If they can't eat a standard diet, you need to adapt it so they are eating enough to maintain weight.

I've had 2 rabbits with major dental issues and jaw abscesses. They were under the care of FHB (rabbit expert) who listed them as some of her most unusual cases, and I know she used the xrays from one as a teaching aid. They were on injectable antibiotics for abscesses and lots of pain relief. They coped really well. With an adapted diet, appropriate vet care & dentals, they both lived about another 12-18 months - which was quite a long time considering the extreme nature of their condition, and they were not young rabbits.

I've also had a 'standard' dental rabbit who went on for years with regular dentals and died age 9y of something unrelated. The intervals between his dentals varied from about 6 weeks to 9 months.
Click to expand...

Very useful information, thank you very much. I thought Dr. Hancourt Brown has retired?
 
FHB has 'retired' from general practice. I saw her a few years ago. She's still doing research and teaching.
 
Happy Hopping said:
a few quick questions:

1) My vet and I talked about skull radiograph, he said he has to put Fudgie in a drowsy state w/ 1 of those drugs. But 1 of those drugs is the one that cause him to nearly die that day. So for now, we're trying pain killer. If we do that x-ray, and he doesn't wake up, then I'm finish

2) regarding your #2 on keep molar short and shaped, I don't understand, how does that help the root?

3) So I am giving him food that he was eating yesterday but only some of it today. On the other hand, he eats quite a lot of hay when I handfeed him. My only small problem is, when I put the food on the bowl, the other bun, his girlfriend Andi wants to eat it. So I haave to hold Andi on the desk while I hope Fudgie will eat the food. Prior to yesterday, he eats them right away. Which is why I think I should talk to the vet, as 0.2 ml is the low end of the pain killer dosage

2)
Click to expand...

A different dose of sedation can be given. If a Rabbit has TRE regular GAs are unavoidable. Otherwise the Rabbit will be in increasing amounts of pain, eating will become more and more difficult. Serious secondary problems can develop eg gut stasis, tooth root abscesses, retrobulbar abscesses, osteomyelitis. Ethically it would be wrong to allow this to happen and thus the risk of a GA is one that just has to be taken, IMO. If the Rabbit passes under GA at least they won’t have had months of pain and suffering as would be the case if nothing is done at all. That would just mean a slow painful time before the Rabbit has to be PTS. Of course losing a Rabbit under GA is awful for us and it’s understandable that you are anxious. But for Fudgie the benefits of a proper evaluation under GA far outweigh the risks. But it’s a personal decision. Some people might chose to just give ever increasing doses of analgesia until the time comes when even the highest doses of the strongest analgesics do not help, the Rabbit stops eating, develops abscesses, becomes very debilitated etc. Then PTS is the only option.
High doses of analgesia has a detrimental effect on kidney and liver function when used long term. But that would be a risk that has to be taken, the Rabbit can’t be left in pain.

The longer the crowns of the molars become the more pressure chewing puts on the tooth roots, pushing them further into the bones. Rabbits teeth are open rooted.Eventually the roots can penetrate the nasal passages, grow up behind the eyeballs etc. This frequently leads to abscesses in the jawbone and/ or behind the eyeball.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1557506307000869
 
Last edited:
1) that's also what my vet said as well, that eventually, we have to bite the bullet and exam his skull under GA. But I am curious, he was very tame and well rest under a towel at the vet office, can a radiograph be taken while he's calm, cause he didn't move for quite a long while

2) but what do we really gain by the radiograph? We already know it's TRE, what do you mean by "disease management plan "? since the teeth can't be removed, then it becomes pain management regardless

3) at this point, do you think the TRE is caused by giving him too much spinach in the past 3+ year? I didn't do it on purpose, he keeps begging for more.

4) what is open rooted exactly?
 
Couldn't have said it better than Jane has.

There's always a risk with every animal every time they have a GA. But you can't just leave an animal needing treatment - it would be in pain and essentially starve to death if it can't eat. The alternative is PTS. I always take the risk of treatment under GA if the other option is PTS. The result is either relief of the symptoms from the treatment, or a painless death under GA which the animal would be totally unaware of. Either way, it's a responsible decision that a pet owner may have to make at some point.
 
A vet needs to be able to 'see' exactly what they are dealing with when it comes to rabbit teeth and tooth roots. The only way they can get the full picture is via x-rays, otherwise there's a big element of guesswork as to what teeth need what work doing - not ideal for the best outcome. They are also working in a very tiny space - so the more info they have before they start work, the better. It will also mean better use of the time a rabbit is under GA.

Without xrays, you have no way of knowing where the tooth roots are going, how long they are, or if there are any other issues (eg hidden abscesses) that need to be taken into account. Altering the crown of a tooth also affects its root, and it can seriously reduce the amount of pain on eating, and other symptoms such as drooling and runny eyes. They are issues caused by the tooth roots.

Think of it like a bonsai tree - you have to shape the top growth and prune the roots to match, so that it continues to thrive in a small pot.
 
Shimmer said:
A vet needs to be able to 'see' exactly what they are dealing with when it comes to rabbit teeth and tooth roots. The only way they can get the full picture is via x-rays, otherwise there's a big element of guesswork as to what teeth need what work doing - not ideal for the best outcome. They are also working in a very tiny space - so the more info they have before they start work, the better. It will also mean better use of the time a rabbit is under GA.

Without xrays, you have no way of knowing where the tooth roots are going, how long they are, or if there are any other issues (eg hidden abscesses) that need to be taken into account. Altering the crown of a tooth also affects its root, and it can seriously reduce the amount of pain on eating, and other symptoms such as drooling and runny eyes. They are issues caused by the tooth roots.

Think of it like a bonsai tree - you have to shape the top growth and prune the roots to match, so that it continues to thrive in a small pot.
Click to expand...

does all the rabbit has to be in a drowsy state to do that scan, as I understand that scan takes about 30 sec. or so, if the bun is calm, stay at 1 spot not moving, can it be done?
 
The positioning of the head needed to take clinically useful radiographs cannot be done whilst the Rabbit is awake.

Have you read the information on the links I posted? TRE is part of dental disease, not a stand alone condition. It is indicative of advanced dental problems.

Also these links

http://www.medirabbit.com/Radiography/anatomical_lines.pdf

https://www.vetlexicon.com/treat/lapis/freeform/dental-malocclusion-overgrowth

https://knowledge.rcvs.org.uk/docum...-harcourtbrown-t-692/harcourt-brown-20578.pdf

https://lbah.com/rabbit/rabbit-teeth-conditions/


In short the choice is to actively manage the condition by establishing the stage of Dental disease, bone health etc and putting a management plan together. Or just giving ever increasing amounts of analgesia until the the pain cannot be managed and the Rabbit has to be PTS.
 
There's no point in half-hearted measures that don't do the job properly and potentially have at least as much risk as a proper sedation or GA with the correct x-rays taken. A conscious animal just can't be fully positioned, may move and is likely to be stressed more. You are better doing it while he's as fit as he can be and eating reasonably well. Leaving it until it's a bigger issue also means a more difficult procedure and longer recovery.
 
okay, I've been thinking of an alternative, you people let me know what you think: Fudgie tear discharge on only his right side. Can we take a x-ray while he's awake on the right side? as I remember back in 2007, another of my bun Monty, the vet took a x-ray on Monty while he's awake on 1 side.

No Jane, I haven't read any of the links. I've been very stressed and keep thinking Fudgie can't live a full life of approx. 12 yr. My past 2 buns, Minnie and Bobby, both live passed the age of 12. And each time this kind of things happen, I do the soul searching that I have done something wrong. In this case, I think the excessive spinach around 2 am daily did cause Fudgie not to eat enough hay during that time period. But I don't know if that can cause all these. The thing is, I never refuse any bun who comes and ask for more treats all these years. And they all fine, but after talking to Sarah Archer and you, it seems clear that some buns, in my case, just Fudgie, can affect their teeth when they don't spend enough time eating hay

I'll definitely read thru all these links in the next few days
 
There is no point in doing half the job by only taking radiographs of one side. Both sides are likely to be effected even though it’s not obvious at the moment.

If Fudgie were my Rabbit I’d get on with having the full Dental assessment done, including skull radiography. Getting it done while Fudgie is as well as possible is far better than waiting until symptoms get much worse and thus making the GA risk greater.On the links there are numerous references to best practice when assessing dental problems in Rabbits.

With regards to diet, hay should make up at least 80%-90% of it. Grazing on fresh grass is excellent too. Some Rabbits are more prone to dental problems due to their genetics, especially flat faced (brachycephalic) breeds. These breed types could still develop dental problems even if fed a good diet.

I would try to focus on how to move forward from now with regards to trying to minimise the rate of progression of Fudgie’s dental problems. We can’t change the past. I doubt that feeding a bit of spinach every day would be enough to stop a Rabbit from eating hay.
 
Some rabbits just develop dental problems with age. You can't always predict or prevent it. What you can do is mitigate it by diet (hay / grass) and get any issues sorted quickly. A rabbit that can't eat properly due to dental issues will lose weight and may get eg gut stasis. The risks of a GA are minimal. The risks of not sorting out dental issues as they arise is huge - they will have an effect on the wellbeing and quality of life of the rabbit, and ultimately the lifespan (which is unpredictable anyway - my eldest was 9).

Trust your vet or get them to recommend a specialist in rabbit dentals. You can't ask them to do half a job. You can often get xrays done at the same time as the dental work, but you do need a full set or something may be missed. You can ask for fluids to be given during a GA. Get a full blood profile done before to show that all organs are working normally so that forseeable complications from GA are reduced.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Happy Hopping
my Rex bun has gained weight to 2.6KG from mostly eating hay
Replies
11
Views
1K
Happy Hopping
Happy Hopping
J
Pickle not eating caecotrophs; but other poop, eating and behaviour is normal.
Replies
5
Views
881
MightyMax
MightyMax
B
Please Help With My Underweight and Overweight Rabbits
Replies
4
Views
1K
Amy104
A
Back
Top