my bun Fudgie is not eating enough timothy hay and is losing wt. thru out the years

[Happy Hopping]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qsQ54Wp4WI

So when my bun was first adopted, in the second half of 2019, he weighs 2.54KG. See video above from summer of last yr.

he's an Agouti Cross Breed

By Sep. 2, 2022, he weighs 2.137KG

Today, he weighs 1.963 KG

the biggest problem is he doesn't seem to eat as much hay as he should, and his poo is black color, although it was the goldish yellow color a few mth. ago

I give fresh scent hay every 4 hr., so the bowl of hay is always there, and to entice them, I do that new small bundle of hay every 4 hr. The hay is 100% timothy hay from the farm, very fresh.

By contrast, my other bun, a Rex, has gained too much wt.,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELfCV6e4lXU

She's the white bun in this video

When I first adopted her, she weighs 2.4KG in Jan. 2020. By Dec. 3, 2022, she weighs 2.547KG, and today, she weighs 2.623 KG

because the Rex is eating like a horse, I wonder if she eats too much of a share of the Oxbow Organic Bounty and the other bun doesn't have enough, as the pellet encourage them to eat hay.

Off hand, I can give out separate pellet to my bun (the Agouti) so he can eat enough pellet.

As far as health and energy is concerned, both bun are full of energy. Food is the very same for both buns

has anyone seen this before?

 

[InspectorMorse]

From the video the Agouti doesn’t look underweight at all, The Rex is chubby, not uncommon for a Rex, it would be a good idea to try to get a bit off weight off her.


Rex’s are genetically predisposed to gain weight easily and this is made worse because most Rexes are exceptionally greedy. Neutering increases the weight gain issues, more so in Rexes I have found but I have no scientific proof of that. It’s just an observation I have made over the last 26 years of keeping Rexes.

Has the Agouti had a recent thorough dental examination ? Not eating much hay leads to dental problems such as overly long molar crowns and spurs. So if a recent dental examination hasn’t been carried out I would advise that is done

I would feed pellet rations separately so you know they both get the correct amount. I only feed about 10 -12 Science Selective Pellets to a 5.4 kg Rabbit a day. I feed 4-5 pellets to a 1.4 kg Rabbit. Just hand fed as treats. The rest of my Rabbits diet is hay (Timothy, meadow, Rye and Oat Grass) plus some dried pure grass and various dried forages bought from here https://www.naturesgrub.co.uk/collections/rabbits/products/herb-salad

Maybe you have a similar retail outlet for the purchase of dried forage in Canada?

 

[Happy Hopping]

no, Jane, you don't understand, the video is from June 2022, we have snow winter so there is no new video until May of this year. So those are all old video. I have no problem w/ my Rex for now.

As to my Agouti, I'll book a dental, great tips. Thanks. Now, let's say it's dental. Then shouldn't he also won't be eating the pellets too? as he eats everything else in record speed except the hay

also I'm a bit rusty when it comes to spur, as last time I have to deal w/ this is back in 2012 or so w/ my bun Bernie. W/ Bernie, he had a 1 x overgrown tooth and need to trim. And after they did it 5 times in say 3 year, he passed away on heart problem on the surgery table. So my guts feeling is whenever there is an over grow teeth, the right call is to simply removed it.

so my question is, when is time to trim and when is time to remove it, what's the deciding factor?

 

[Shimmer]

Removing the back teeth of a rabbit is a major job. It's not like removing a human tooth as they continually grow throughout the life of the rabbit. Removal of any teeth will cause other issues as it changes the way they are able to grind down on each other, so the other teeth are then likely to need regular intervention. Incisors are sometimes removed instead of regular burring - that is less of an issue, but food needs to be presented in a way that the rabbit can eat it (ie chopped up hay / grass) as they are no longer able to cut it themselves.

Weighing a rabbit weekly is the best way of determining if they are eating enough. A steady loss over 2 or 3 weeks would initiate a vet visit for further investigation. Also monitoring poo output is a way of monitoring input. Any continuous or sudden weight loss needs investigating.

 

[Happy Hopping]

I know the part of removal of 1 teeth can train wreck the other. So the normal procedure should be to trim it down. But in the case of my bun Bernie, repeated trimming caused him to die on the either the 5th or 6th time, in other words, that tooth keep growing upwards. So in his case, the cause of action should have been to remove it. So I suppose I can do the teeth trim once and if it happens again, remove it. But I would like to list of all the deciding factors if available

 

[InspectorMorse]

As Shimmer said, molar tooth removal is major surgery unless the tooth is already loose. It most certainly is not something to be done as a means of dealing with spurs. Rabbits have open rooted molars, they are deep set into the jaw bone. Removing a molar tooth that is not already loose can actually fracture the jaw. Surgery might need to be done from the outside, going in through the cheek. Facial nerve damage can be the result.

How frequently dentals are needed cannot be predicted, each case will be different. Some Rabbits might only need one in their lifetime. Others one every 6 months, others every 6 weeks.

I would start by establishing if there are any signs of dental problems in the first place. Whilst it’s impossible to get a 100% view of the oral cavity of a conscious Rabbit, but a Rabbit Savvy Vet will be able to make a reasonable assessment.

I am sorry that you lost a Rabbit under GA for a Dental. Sadly whilst rare there is always a risk with any GA for any procedure. Removing a molar tooth just because it develops spurs is far, far more risking than managing the problem with burring the spurs/reshaping the crowns etc. Removing the molar gives zero guarantee that further dentals won’t still be needed, they very probably would be.

 

[Shimmer]

Skull X-rays would show the extent of the tooth and root problems, and enable them to be better managed by your vet. Roots also grow and can be managed (at least in part) by the burring and shaping of the crowns by a vet experienced in rabbit dentals. Ask for x-rays at the next dental so there's only one GA.

 

[Happy Hopping]

Jane:

since you helped me w/ Bernie back in 2012, let me ask you a few questions:

1) if we can go back in time, w/o knowing he would passed away on the 5th time at the surgery table, is there anything that could have done differently?

2) Bernie had 1 trim approx. every 4 mth., so that means the tooth probably grow to some discomfort around 3rd mth., and by the 4th mth. he can't eat anymore. Does that mean teeth trim is really a band-aid? That we can only hope they eat more hay to stop teeth growth? I mean, what really is the purpose of teeth trim if they only temporary fix a teeth grow for a few mth.?

 

[Shimmer]

You can ask for a blood profile to be done before a GA and fluids to be given during the GA. If the teeth need burring, they need doing. Not doing it ultimately affects the health of the rabbit as it will become more and more difficult to eat, probably also with painful damage to the soft tissues in the mouth as well.

Feeding only things that contribute towards dental health will help to some extent by extending the time between dentals - so hay / grass and high fibre forage only, assuming he can eat enough to maintain weight.

I would rather lose a rabbit under GA having an essential procedure done, rather than allow extended suffering by not doing the procedure.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Jane:

since you helped me w/ Bernie back in 2012, let me ask you a few questions:

1) if we can go back in time, w/o knowing he would passed away on the 5th time at the surgery table, is there anything that could have done differently?

2) Bernie had 1 trim approx. every 4 mth., so that means the tooth probably grow to some discomfort around 3rd mth., and by the 4th mth. he can't eat anymore. Does that mean teeth trim is really a band-aid? That we can only hope they eat more hay to stop teeth growth? I mean, what really is the purpose of teeth trim if they only temporary fix a teeth grow for a few mth.?

If the Rabbit has malocclusion, ie the teeth don’t meet up properly and grind against each other, top to bottom when chewing hay then the crowns will grow too long and spurs will occur. Rabbits teeth grow continuously, so they must be continuously worn down to prevent problems. If the teeth are not aligned correctly, either due to genetics or from acquired malocclusion caused by a diet lacking in hay/grass then the problem becomes chronic as the teeth grow at the wrong angle, so to speak.

 

[Happy Hopping]

Something really horrible has happened. Inspect Fudgie with my digital otoscope, confirmed there is a spur about 2 mm long on his top right side of the mouth, so the cheek teeth needed to be trimmed. Went to see the doctor for this, the vet is a rabbit specialist that I use since 2005, and this is supposedly a very routine operation. The agreement is to use sedation instead of Ultra Short GA gas, as I have more faith in sedation than gas.

The operation only takes 10 min., but when it is near the end, his heart rate slows, and breathing was stopped for about 1 min. So they reversed the sedation medication given, and I drove down to see him. He’s lying on the table w/ 2 nurses monitoring his heart rate, w/ a tube in his mouth.
According to the doctor, there had been other cases that human and animals have a reaction to some sedation medication, and has this kind of complication. Then he said the weight loss of 584 gram is very high, it could have some underlying disease since Dec. 2022.

Now back in Dec. 2022, Fudgie weighs 2.547 Kg, so obviously he’s fine back then. Then comes the gradual weight loss that I didn’t detect until recently. His poo color however, is black in the past 2 months or so, but definitely not in the past 4 months. So I am guessing all these weight loss and poo color turns to black happened in the past 2 months.

My theory is that his teeth is giving his problem, so he didn’t eat much hay in the past 2 months, as such, his weight dropped and it affects his health. Without the hay, his diet is solely 10 blackberries, half of a full length organic carrot, some large amount of spinach, as he loves spinach, and approx. 1 teaspoon of Oxbow Organic Bounty. Now when he eats all these food, they wolf it down in record speed.

When I hand feed him the hay last night, he did eat them, but I am guessing he didn’t eat the hay on his own for some time. But as recent as this morning, he’s totally full of energy, dig my pillow and my towel on my bed, and hops on my bed several times per day. Besides the weight loss, there is no other signs of any kind of sickness. In fact, there is no proof, even now, that he has any kind of sickness, assuming he just have a bad reaction to the sedation medication.

Now I am sitting here for the next 8 hr., waiting for an update from the doctor. This is totally unexpected, there is no sign that this is going to happen, the whole procedure is supposedly to be a simple 10 min. teeth trim, w/ 1 spur on the right, and a very tiny spur on the left.

 

[InspectorMorse]

I very much doubt there has been any criminal act Jason, but of course I am sorry your Rabbit reacted badly to the sedation. Unfortunately this is a risk in all procedures for all living beings, humans included. It might be a good idea to get a full blood panel run to assess major organ function etc which could account for the weight loss.

I hope that your Rabbit will make a full recovery and be home very soon.

 

[Happy Hopping]

I am thinking of full blood work after Fudgie fully recovered, there is no sense to do it sooner. I want to give him at least 1 to 2 week to recover from this first, see him going back to eating the hay, and hopefully gain back some weight first.

Last night, in 3 different occasions, I give him a big bundle of hay, and he bites most of them off, but did eat some of them.

are you also in the camp that the 584 gram of weight loss is some sort of internal organ causing these? Being an indoor rabbit since last Sep., at age 5, I just can't imagine what could it be. He should be very healthy, and the truth is, he is full of energy as recent as this morning.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Depends on how quickly the weight loss occurred and if he is now underweight. Problems with kidney function can cause unexplained excessive weight loss.

 

[Happy Hopping]

Update: I'm very relieved that Fudgie comes back alive and well. This is definitely a miracle. When I saw him on that operating table, I was preparing for the worst. It was very stressful. So I now need to find out

1) how does the hole of the muscle of the bad tooth that easily pulled out can heal, as the spur along w/ the rest of the tooth just easily pulled out by the vet, so it's just a bad tooth. So I'm given Enro. as the ABX, but I wonder how does that hole heal and how long?

2) when will the scent that my Fudgie got from the hospital wear off? OR can I use a slightly wet paper towel to wipe off the scent on his fur?

 

[Happy Hopping]

update: so on the positive side, Fudgie is eating hay on his own, along w/ all the other food. It's now Wed. evening at 10 pm, so I took his girlfriend Andi to the 2nd floor for them to re-kindle together. For about 1 hr., everything is fine, then suddenly there is some fur jousting. Nothing serious, just a bit of fur, so I temporary separate them.

I have already use a wet paper towel to brush off any scent from Fudgie, and then use that same paper towel to rub it on Andi to transfer the scent. And they are happy for that 1st hr.

 

[InspectorMorse]

Sorry, missed your first update. The Vet should have scheduled a post op check to make sure that the extraction cavity is healing with no evidence of infection.

I hope that you manage to get Fudgie and Andi reunited.

 

[Happy Hopping]

Thanks Jane. there is one 7 days from now, and I'll do some blood work to get to the bottom of the wt. loss.

 

[Happy Hopping]

update: after 5 yr. of bonding, both buns go back to the cage. They won't re-bond, and they try to fight. I manage to stop it before it begins. However, Andi bite my finger instead. Now they go back to bonding 101. The first time that happens, took 3 weeks x 24 hr. x 7 days non-stop. Now history repeats itself

 

[joey&boo]

I'm glad Fudgie is eating some hay now but sorry they have fallen out. I'd give them some time apart while she recovers from what sounds like a traumatic experience for both of you