More bad news for Mack: Another check-up tonight (04/03)

[Angie65]

Sorry Sooz - hope he starts to improve soon.

Is there an alternative to Hibiscrub? I used it on my horse (for a fungal infection thing) a few years ago, but he was allergic so vet recommended an alternative, I cannot for the life in me remember what it was called:?

 

[abbymarysmokey]

Sarah, interestingly an acid environment will stop the bacteria producing and something that is very effective for this is actually white wine vinegar but we just can't pour this in an open wound, as it would be absolutely excruciating for him.

Also, pus can't form in an environment without moisture, so would it be possible to marsupialize the wound, allowing it to dry out? I don't know if this would be possible in Mack's case, but it's worth discussing with your vet

 

[Ben's mum]

Re. applying Baytril directly, I know with rats that due to the Baytril burn risk, some people had gone with Marbocyl instead as it's quite similar but doesn't cause burns when injected - would this be a possibility?

SarahP mentioned grapefruit seed extract, again this has been used with rats, but can be applied topically too (it really does taste foul, tried it myself)

 

[Sooz]

Also, pus can't form in an environment without moisture, so would it be possible to marsupialize the wound, allowing it to dry out? I don't know if this would be possible in Mack's case, but it's worth discussing with your vet

The wound has been left opened and sutured & I have to dry it to pack the Manuka inside between flushes. Interestingly enough I have not yet seen any pus discharged during the flushes...what is coming out is actually necrotic tissue.

Has the grapefruit extract actually been used inside abcesses in rats...I've just got this idea that it would sting like ? Re the Marbocyl, I would have to check the C&S lab sheet but have found this online:

Development of antibiotic resistance in bacteria is a problem of great concern. It is important to establish the convenience of antimicrobial susceptibility tests in animal infections. The aim of this study was to test the susceptibility to antibiotics of Pseudomonas strains isolated from chronic canine otitis externa. We tested 23 strains of Pseudomonas: 19 Ps. aeruginosa, three Ps. fluorescens and one Pseudomonas spp. The most effective antibiotics were tobramycin (100 % susceptible), marbofloxacin (91.3 %) and ceftazidime (91.3 %). Ticarcillin and gentamicin, commonly used for the treatment of otitis externa also showed good results (susceptibility of strains was 86 and 65.2 % respectively). Lower susceptibility was found using enrofloxacin (52.1 %) probably due to its indiscriminate use. We emphasize the need for a rational policy of antibiotic prescribing in order to prevent the selection of resistant strains

 

[SarahP]

Citricidal (grapefruit seed extract) can be used without problems, but you wouldn't use it neat - it's pretty concentrated. You can mix it in water, or in with the honey etc. Mixing it with the honey would prevent it from being so bitter too. I've not used it for this exact purpose though, so a bit reluctant to say it's the ideal thing for Mack.

 

[Ben's mum]

I'm trying to find anything about its use as a topical treatment, but I'm sure Sabby at The Rat Warehouse will try her best to answer any queries on any products she sells, as she often discusses things in thorough detail with her reps/suppliers before selling new products - contact details on www.ratwarehouse.co.uk

Edit: Saying that, can't see it on her site anymore

 

[Sooz]

Citricidal (grapefruit seed extract) can be used without problems, but you wouldn't use it neat - it's pretty concentrated. You can mix it in water, or in with the honey etc. Mixing it with the honey would prevent it from being so bitter too. I've not used it for this exact purpose though, so a bit reluctant to say it's the ideal thing for Mack.

It would need to be used topically or else I don't think it would reach the affected area....which was the problem we have with giving Baytril and why we were looking at alternatives to apply directly into the cavity.

I'm quite interested in trying the Marbocyl as it's the same family as Baytril and registers a higher sucess rate than Baytril or gentamicin (from Tiacil).

Thanks for all your suggestions :wave:

 

[SarahP]

My old vet used Marbocyl all the time - it was his first choice antibiotic.

 

[Sooz]

Just spoke to Rob and he hadn't heard about the problems with saline but said switching to boiled water would be fine and he would bare it in mind in future. He is also going to call the manufacturers of Marbocyl for me either tonight or tomorrow to see if they can provide a treatment plan as the topical application would be using ear drops aimed at dogs which also contain steroids :roll: so obviously not good for bunnies.

If we can't get any joy from the Marbocyl then it loks like Tiacil drops will be the next best option. I should hear from him tomorrow with any luck.

 

[Sooz]

I'm trying to find anything about its use as a topical treatment, but I'm sure Sabby at The Rat Warehouse will try her best to answer any queries on any products she sells, as she often discusses things in thorough detail with her reps/suppliers before selling new products - contact details on www.ratwarehouse.co.uk

Edit: Saying that, can't see it on her site anymore

I did a search on Citricidal and Pseudomonas and some information on using it to clean wounds has come up (it also said it is bacteriastatic as well as bacteriacidal), so will raise it with Rob as an alternative to the sterile water for flushing the wound and see what he thinks.

 

[SarahP]

Sounds like you're doing really well with your research. Hope you get some joy on a new treatment to try soon.

Citricidal really is quite powerful stuff. Might be one to hold in reserve if all else fails.

 

[Ben's mum]

I did a search on Citricidal and Pseudomonas and some information on using it to clean wounds has come up (it also said it is bacteriastatic as well as bacteriacidal), so will raise it with Rob as an alternative to the sterile water for flushing the wound and see what he thinks.

Glad it might be another possibility, I could only find a brief mention of it being used topically, nothing concrete, but there's lots of speil about it being good - maybe true or maybe not but worth looking further into as another option! I do know there was a fair debate about it being used internally though, due to the preservatives etc used in lots of brands of GSE.
I'm sure if you called Sabby at The Rat Warehouse anyway she'd give you all the info she has on it, she's a lovely lady and when debates/queries on products arise on the rat forum I'm on, she's always finding scientific papers to back up her opinions

 

[Happy Hopping]

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=124510&page=3

the above link covers everything you need to know about abscess, in case there is anything that you may have miss.

Healthy healing vibes to little Mack

 

[Sooz]

Glad it might be another possibility, I could only find a brief mention of it being used topically, nothing concrete, but there's lots of speil about it being good - maybe true or maybe not but worth looking further into as another option! I do know there was a fair debate about it being used internally though, due to the preservatives etc used in lots of brands of GSE.
I'm sure if you called Sabby at The Rat Warehouse anyway she'd give you all the info she has on it, she's a lovely lady and when debates/queries on products arise on the rat forum I'm on, she's always finding scientific papers to back up her opinions

The Citricidal is a difficult one because there is a lot of mixed opinions coming up on it compared to very little scientific fact.....for example some sites say it has no effect on gut flora whilst others say it's affect on gut bacteria is unknown. There are also sites which indicate itas being useful for treating wounds at the right dilution whilst others say not to use it on open wounds at all. :roll:

I suppose I could always try it on myself first and see if it hurts or not.

 

[Ben's mum]

The Citricidal is a difficult one because there is a lot of mixed opinions coming up on it compared to very little scientific fact.....for example some sites say it has no effect on gut flora whilst others say it's affect on gut bacteria is unknown. There are also sites which indicate itas being useful for treating wounds at the right dilution whilst others say not to use it on open wounds at all. :roll:

I suppose I could always try it on myself first and see if it hurts or not.

I was debating suggesting that :lol: If I can find my bottle and someone with an open wound I'll test it out :lol: Can assure you that it tastes gross though, I had about 3 drops in a pint glass full of strong orange squash and BLEUGH, never again :lol: You can get it in powdered/capsule form though which isn't as bitter apparently. Personally I wouldn't risk it with any of my animals to give internally, I did try it externally once on a rat but I don't think it was an open wound, it was a few years back now, I think it may have been on some kind of rash/sore - they didn't seem to act like it hurt but rats are pretty resiliant!

 

[Sooz]

I was debating suggesting that :lol: If I can find my bottle and someone with an open wound I'll test it out :lol: Can assure you that it tastes gross though, I had about 3 drops in a pint glass full of strong orange squash and BLEUGH, never again :lol:

:lol::lol::lol:
Well he has given me some smashing scratches on my hand over the past few days....they sting like mad! Can't really hold it against him though, as on the grand scheme of things he's nowhere near got even with me yet.

 

[SarahP]

I thought of you last night, as I used Citricidal on a stubborn case of athletes foot I have, ie on broken skin. I decided to go mad and use it neat and... it was surprisingly fine! I thought it would sting like mad/

I use it internally with my guinea pigs, and it is the only thing that seems to touch the bacteria they pass between them. I've seen no evidence of it affecting the gut flora at all, even with long term use. Have no experience of using it with bunnies though.

Forgot to say, despite the horrible taste, the piggies take it voluntarily on cucumber.

 

[Sooz]

Well Rob has spoken to Vetoquinol for me who manufacture Marbocyl and they don't have any research that would allow them to say the use of marbofloxacin as a topical treatment in a case like Mack's is safe or effective. They did say it can be used diluted with water 1-10 in the ear of a dog with a pseudomonas infection and they had not had reported problems from it's use in this way....and it is fairly effective.

We think, based on this, we should probably try the Tiacil first as there is documented cases where this has been used safely.

He also thinks the Citricidal is something we can keep in reserve if this line of treatment appears not to be effective, provided we can establish it's direct applicaton will not cause him any pain.

 

[Hugo's There]

Glad to see that the tiacil might be able to help

The dedication and care you are giving Mack is amazing, you both really deserve some postitve progress, my fingers are crossed for you

 

[honeybunny]

Ditto the above x