How do you know your rabbit is happy?

[Azraelm]

I already said if a rabbit was kept in such conditions they would likely be ill, so they would be in pain, but that's not unhappiness, which is what we are talking about.

Not necessarily- think of all those rabbits living years in what is a basically a 3ft coffin at the bottom of the garden. They will not defiently get ill, but they will be extremely distressed and unhappy.

Seeing as this is a welfare forum, I think we should be encouraging people to do all they can to make their rabbits lives happy, not suggesting that they CANNOT be unhappy, which is ridiculous IMO :?

 

[leeanderin]

ahhh im no rabbit physcolagist but that sound like happy bun to me!:lol:

I'd love to film him doing it but if you laugh at him or look at him too long when he's doing it he stops - definately bonkers but i wouldn't have it any other way!

 

[Tamsin]

I think the issue is with the term unhappy/happy. I'm guessing a rabbit doesn't think in those terms.

I guess one way of measuring it is stress levels. When stress free = happy, stressed = unhappy.

Things like a lack of food and water will cause stress, as will lack of space to perform normal behaviour, things that induce fear (e.g. visits from foxes), and illness/injury.

There are also things that reduce stress such as readily available food source, social interaction, exercise etc.

There are certain behaviours that demonstrate stress or the lack of it. Abnormal behaviours such as overgroming, pacing, constant rattling of bars etc. show a rabbit that is stressed. Where as things such as binkies, flopping over, sleeping in the open with belling showing etc. that are signals of a relaxed rabbit.

 

[Tamsin]

Forgot to say, I agree binkies are practice for outwitting predators but I also don't think a rabbit sits down and think "I must practice my get-away skills" so I think it's also a way of kicking up their heels and enjoying the space. The same as kittens practice pouncing as a game with their sibblings.

 

[jessiebuns]

I wonder this sometimes, but my two look perfectly content to me. They binky like mad, eat well, love each other to bits and flop out loads. We have to step over them in the hallway because they don't move, just stay where they are!! I feel guilty sometimes that they are indoors and not outside in a huge, secure garden but we live in a flat so thats that. But they certainly seem to enjoy the life they have. Bless 'em:rabbit2: :rabbit2:

 

[Ben's mum]

Seeing as this is a welfare forum, I think we should be encouraging people to do all they can to make their rabbits lives happy, not suggesting that they CANNOT be unhappy, which is ridiculous IMO :?

In your opinion However, unless you can prove that rabbits feel happiness and unhappiness then you can't really judge Elve for her opinion

 

[Azraelm]

In your opinion However, unless you can prove that rabbits feel happiness and unhappiness then you can't really judge Elve for her opinion

IMO = In My Opinion

 

[elve]

In your opinion However, unless you can prove that rabbits feel happiness and unhappiness then you can't really judge Elve for her opinion

Thank you Tamsin made a good point about stress too. Happiness/unhappiness are really cerebral emotions involving imagination, which rabbits don't have. A healthy lifestyle will produce a contented rabbit, and an unhealthy lifestyle will produce an poorly rabbit. I'm sure a rabbit kept in a 3' cage wouldn't be healthy - how could it be? Being in pain or discomfort would make it 'unhappy' but I don't think the actual confinement would - more the results of the confinement on its health.

IN MY OPINION

 

[Ben's mum]

IMO = In My Opinion

I know But your first sentence came across to me like you were telling Elve not to express her opinion as she's misrepresenting the purpose of the forum. She hasn't said to keep rabbits in 3' hutches, just that she's not sure that rabbits in that situation feel "unhappy"

 

[elve]

Forgot to say, I agree binkies are practice for outwitting predators but I also don't think a rabbit sits down and think "I must practice my get-away skills" so I think it's also a way of kicking up their heels and enjoying the space. The same as kittens practice pouncing as a game with their sibblings.

The reason they don't plan to practise skills is because it's instinctive - same as kittens learning to hunt is instinctive

 

[SOAD]

You can't say rabbits deffo don't have imagination though.

 

[Tamsin]

I'm sure a rabbit kept in a 3' cage wouldn't be healthy - how could it be? Being in pain or discomfort would make it 'unhappy' but I don't think the actual confinement would - more the results of the confinement on its health.

It's difficult to work out where that split would be. Certainly a small hutch/cage would impact on physical heath (e.g. increase likely hood of osteoporosis) but it does also effect the mental health of the rabbit, which is demonstrated by increased likely hood of abnormal behaviours. I would say, abnormal behaviour shows the rabbit is stressed which shows it's "unhappy".

There have been quite a few studies with housing lab rabbits looking at impact on behaviour. So they've shown that things like enrichment (toys), social interaction and a lookout/hidey box reduce abnormal behaviour (so reduce stress and promote "happyness").

 

[carasblanco]

Happiness/unhappiness are really cerebral emotions involving imagination, which rabbits don't have.

I think they do have it. When my bun LaRue lost her partner last winter, for a whole week she went from room to room looking for him, jumping on chairs, perioscoping everywhere, and sulked with her head flat to the floor after her searches. He wasn't to be seen, but she must have "imagined" him.
Anyone who has a bunny who does flops knows that it is more than feeling an absense of stress. or a feeling of contentment.
It is an obvious "happiness" expression.

 

[Ben's mum]

I think they do have it. When my bun LaRue lost her partner last winter, for a whole week she went from room to room looking for him, jumping on chairs, perioscoping everywhere, and sulked with her head flat to the floor after her searches. He wasn't to be seen, but she must have "imagined" him.
Anyone who has a bunny who does flops knows that it is more than feeling an absense of stress. or a feeling of contentment.
It is an obvious "happiness" expression.

It depends how you look at things. From a less 'emotional' point of view you could say she could smell another rabbit and was trying to find the source of the smell. You could say a flop is just a lazy way of rabbits lying down to sleep/rest if they feel no need for their defensive/ready-to-run type of sleeping.
I think as humans we often attribute human characteristics to our pets - we have "smiling" photos, give them set routines (one lady I used to rabbit-sit for would always bring the rabbit's blanket to cover her cage at bedtime), etc. but half of it is just us making out their normal behaviour to be something more than it is - how many of us get pleased when our pets "kiss" us despite it most liking being them trying to lick the salt from our sweat? :lol:

 

[SOAD]

Ok I have one,

When I had Marley ,I was thinking about him over merry hill and started blarting, I'm such a baby , sorry O/T. Anyway, I had a big bunch of carrots with tops, he was lying in the hall, but he was awake. I held the tops to the side of his face and he looked at them and went to bolt up the stairs, then he stopped as if to say "omg I am such a prat " and came for the tops. He imagined them to be something out to get him, when they were just carrot tops.

PS he wasn't a jumpy bunny he was the moct chilled out bunny ever.

 

[SOAD]

- how many of us get pleased when our pets "kiss" us despite it most liking being them trying to lick the salt from our sweat? :lol:

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're thinking that we're more complexed than an animal. Just because they don't talk our language, doesn't mean they don't talk any or feel anything. In days gone by people use to class Aborigines as none human and unable to feel things, people laugh at that now. Yet how do we know they don't feel anything? (buns/animals not aborigines :lol: )

 

[Azraelm]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're thinking that we're more complexed than an animal. Just because they don't talk our language, doesn't mean they don't talk any or feel anything. In days gone by people use to class Aborigines as none human and unable to feel things, people laugh at that now. Yet how do we know they don't feel anything? (buns/animals not aborigines :lol: )

:thumb:

And also agree with what you said Carasblanco.

 

[elve]

I think they do have it. When my bun LaRue lost her partner last winter, for a whole week she went from room to room looking for him, jumping on chairs, perioscoping everywhere, and sulked with her head flat to the floor after her searches. He wasn't to be seen, but she must have "imagined" him.
Anyone who has a bunny who does flops knows that it is more than feeling an absense of stress. or a feeling of contentment.
It is an obvious "happiness" expression.

Rabbits definitely have memory - I think she remembered him and was looking for him, aided by his scent.

 

[carasblanco]

It depends how you look at things. From a less 'emotional' point of view you could say she could smell another rabbit and was trying to find the source of the smell.

I know the point you are trying to make, but in the instance of my rabbit looking for her partner, it was clearly that. She wasn't looking for a "source of a smell", she was acting abnormally going into rooms and on furniture that she never goes onto. She has never perioscoped before or since, which she did for a week after her partners death. She clearly missed her partner, was clearly not her perky and alert self with her ears and head down.
Smiling photos and a lady putting a blanket on a cage at bedtime are a different catagories and don't apply to my rabbit pining for her partner.
I have noticed now that often when there is disagreement among people whether or not animals are sentient beings, there are examples like this meant to be comparable, but just are not, which try to "prove" that animals do not have feelings.

 

[elve]

Ok I have one,

When I had Marley ,I was thinking about him over merry hill and started blarting, I'm such a baby , sorry O/T. Anyway, I had a big bunch of carrots with tops, he was lying in the hall, but he was awake. I held the tops to the side of his face and he looked at them and went to bolt up the stairs, then he stopped as if to say "omg I am such a prat " and came for the tops. He imagined them to be something out to get him, when they were just carrot tops.

PS he wasn't a jumpy bunny he was the moct chilled out bunny ever.

He didn't imagine anything - it was an instinctive reaction, same as if we think a huge spider's on our leg and it's just a piece of hay - we don't sit there see the hay and think 'hmmm - I wonder if that could be a spider?' in an imaginative way - there's no time for imagining when you are reacting instinctively.

Rabbits often sleep with their eyes open too - I can tell when I've startled my 'awake' bunnies from sleep - Benny does it especially