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Have just reported this add...

It looks fine for a couple of rats. Judging by it's height against the door it looks about the size of a ferplast Jenny cage.
 
RedFraggle said:
It looks fine for a couple of rats. Judging by it's height against the door it looks about the size of a ferplast Jenny cage.
Click to expand...

What?! :?

Be some pretty miserable rats in there. They're very intelligent creatures, and need something more along the size of a large parrot cage... not to mention there's no levels in there for them to properly make use of the space - just two wooden bits near the bottom :?

Adult rats are very large and would struggle moving about in that floor space. Just as you would give rabbits space, rats need plenty of space also. 'A hutch is not enough' - neither is that tiny cage for rats. Whilst the cage is tall the floor space just isn't good, and I'd struggle with putting a Syrian in there, personally. I know a lot of Syrian keepers go for the Detolf, and promote that.
 
Just as you would give rabbits space, rats need plenty of space also.
Click to expand...

Yes but Rats utilise the space extreamly well and climbing oportunity is just as important to them as floor space. Assuming this cage was of similar size to the Jenny I would have no problem with a few rats in one. A good rat owner would appreciate the intelligence of rats and offer plenty of time outside the cage and human interaction. My rats live in a savic royal suite but you will always find them all crammed together in one hammock - for a rat the best place is bottom of the pile.

Also rats don't need shelves, they are often a waste of space. You can achieve much better layouts with ropes etc for rats if you remove them.
 
Amy104 said:
Yes but Rats utilise the space extreamly well and climbing oportunity is just as important to them as floor space. Assuming this cage was of similar size to the Jenny I would have no problem with a few rats in one. A good rat owner would appreciate the intelligence of rats and offer plenty of time outside the cage and human interaction. My rats live in a savic royal suite but you will always find them all crammed together in one hammock - for a rat the best place is bottom of the pile.

Also rats don't need shelves, they are often a waste of space. You can achieve much better layouts with ropes etc for rats if you remove them.
Click to expand...

Agree. I too have the SRS but that looked Jenny sized to me which is fine. Official recommendations are up to 5 in a Jenny but personally I think 3 tops.
 
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Of course they need climbing space - which is why something the size of a large parrot cage with shelves is what they need. Most good rat owners do give them plenty of time outside cage - but this isn't a justification for keeping them in a tiny cage. A lot of rabbit owners give their buns either outdoor or indoor free range, even on a daily basis - it's still never an excuse to house them in a tiny hutch the rest of the time - they would still need the 6x2x2ft hutch and large attached run (or equivalent) for times when this isn't possible.

Shelves a waste of space? Every rat I've worked with that had a big enough space to warrant using the shelves absolutely took advantage of them a lot - in addition to enrichment and other climbing opportunities such as ropes.

I'm far from snooty on sizes of accommodation for animals - I've seen plenty of people turn their nose up at much better cages at this. From having a background in zoo's I do have knowledge of what is needed in an animals enclosure, and what you need to take into account when considering enclosures, the most important bar health and safety being behaviour. Rats may very well enjoy being bottom of the pile - but they still absolutely need plenty of opportunity to have their own space if needed, and this cage just doesn't offer that.

Being such intelligent animals - there's only so much environmental enrichment you could provide in this cage due to the space, even with regularly changing it around. Food based and olfactory enrichment would be fine - but you can't provide just two of the major types of enrichment and consider it done.

Sorry but this cage is far too small - it would house mice if the bar sizing was smaller - but I certainly wouldn't put anything else in it. Animals need space - and I can't believe any rat lover would genuinely make justifications to cram them in this. For an animal so intelligent as well, beggars belief.

Amy104 said:
Yes but Rats utilise the space extreamly well and climbing oportunity is just as important to them as floor space. Assuming this cage was of similar size to the Jenny I would have no problem with a few rats in one. A good rat owner would appreciate the intelligence of rats and offer plenty of time outside the cage and human interaction. My rats live in a savic royal suite but you will always find them all crammed together in one hammock - for a rat the best place is bottom of the pile.

Also rats don't need shelves, they are often a waste of space. You can achieve much better layouts with ropes etc for rats if you remove them.
Click to expand...
 
There are no measurements on that ad. We both said if it was Jenny sized it was ok. Rhian has clarified it's smaller than that.
 
RedFraggle said:
There are no measurements on that ad. We both said if it was Jenny sized it was ok. Rhian has clarified it's smaller than that.
Click to expand...

Yes. The assumption was that it was a Jenny sized cage. I can see why people thought that as it's not that obvious without the measurements or knowing what the cage actually was. As they're really not common anymore but 80cm x 50cm x 80cm cages (which is considered minimum size by most rehoming organisations for a small group) are then it's a fair assumption.

As far as the shelf comment goes then no, shelves are not needed. They encourage rats to get fat as they are a fairly easy form of enrichment and can be a contributing factor to bumblefoot as rats love to pee on them but they are difficult to keep spotless particularly wooden shelves. Other enrichment which keep the rats active and don't allow urine to pool is a much better idea - see my pic below. It is 2 Savic Royal Suite's joined. I have 2 shelves in the whole thing but these shelves are being used as litter trays as they can be filled with litter as they are concave thus solving the problem of pee being where it shouldn't.




Neither Amy104 or Redfraggle were justifying the use of small cages in this thread as both of them keep their rats in large cages. They were purely mistaken (easily done when there's no measurements or anything around for size comparison) about what the cage actually is. I think we're all now in agreement that it's far too small :).
 
I'm a bit confused by your post Rhian. You are saying no shelves are not needed because they have a negative effect - encouraging rats to get fat due to an 'easy form of enrichment'. But then state you yourself are using them :? It's a total contradiction. If you feel that shelves themselves are the problem, then you shouldn't be using them as per your own beliefs? I don't believe shelves themselves are the problem, which seems to be what you are saying (it's how you are using them) so it seems we are in agreement about the same thing, or are we? The fact is the shelves are being utilised, so if used correctly they are entirely beneficial and rats will use them - which is what I've been saying all along, but other members are saying rats won't use them if other enrichment is provided. Now you yourself are saying they have a negative effect, whilst using them in your own cages :roll:

The point is they are being utilised - as litter trays - which most people would use them for anyway? :? :roll: Are your rats fat and suffering bumblefoot - no because they are being used correctly. So really, what is it you're arguing about/disagreeing about? Because to me you're agreeing that the rats will utilise them, because yours are themselves. It entirely comes across people are just interested in 'being right' about something here - and it's genuinely confusing as we seem to be entirely on the same side...

Sorry but other members were very quick to jump in, to say I was wrong about the size of the cage as it was suitable for a few rats - which I wasn't, and it is not. I was genuinely horrified at the idea. As I've said - it seems to be much more interest in 'being right' about something, to the point of jumping in and trying to correct me about the cage, when I didn't need it. Silly.

Yes your cages are lovely - spacious and enriched as they should be. You can entirely see why I was horrified by the idea of that tiny cage then. I don't think that's something to disagree about really, is it?

Rhian33 said:
Yes. The assumption was that it was a Jenny sized cage. I can see why people thought that as it's not that obvious without the measurements or knowing what the cage actually was. As they're really not common anymore but 80cm x 50cm x 80cm cages (which is considered minimum size by most rehoming organisations for a small group) are then it's a fair assumption.

As far as the shelf comment goes then no, shelves are not needed. They encourage rats to get fat as they are a fairly easy form of enrichment and can be a contributing factor to bumblefoot as rats love to pee on them but they are difficult to keep spotless particularly wooden shelves. Other enrichment which keep the rats active and don't allow urine to pool is a much better idea - see my pic below. It is 2 Savic Royal Suite's joined. I have 2 shelves in the whole thing but these shelves are being used as litter trays as they can be filled with litter as they are concave thus solving the problem of pee being where it shouldn't.




Neither Amy104 or Redfraggle were justifying the use of small cages in this thread as both of them keep their rats in large cages. They were purely mistaken (easily done when there's no measurements or anything around for size comparison) about what the cage actually is. I think we're all now in agreement that it's far too small :).
Click to expand...
 
Also, I clicked on the pic hoping for a larger image, genuinely because I liked your cage set up. It had other images, which I hope you don't mind I peeped at (I imagine if you minded, you'd have it set to private).

Anyway, it would seem from the pics of your own rats that yours actually use them quite often. I'll stand by what I say, rats use them, and they are beneficial (if you want to get into the nitty gritty about them being used 'correctly' go ahead, it would seem that would be common sense anyway). I've no interest in all arguing about the same thing, in an effort to appear right ;) I always have, and will in future use them, as I believe they're beneficial and will be used. You seem happy using them - so goodness knows why you bother with them if you're disagreeing about that. I will end however, on that your cage is really wonderful - and much more in line with the my personal idea of what rat cages should be like, all the way. Some very spoilt ratties - which is always lovely to see.
 
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