Fleur not herself :(

[Jack's-Jane]

Yes William is great, it's just he wasn't there a few days last week so I saw someone else who is an exotics specialist but no one is like William [emoji38] hopefully next week I'll try see William. The vet I saw didn't mention anything about that just said Fleur had gas in her colon. Obviously I don't have access to lactulose but I have been syringing water into her, as she's not drinking the vet I saw said to do 5 ml every 4 hours, however I'm not sure about that because William once said about 100 ml per kg of weight over a 24 hour period. Any suggestions on how much you'd give? She's 2.6kg.


Does Emeprid work in a different way to Cisapride? Wondering if I can get an appointment with William or take her down to vets4pets I could get them to prescribe something else maybe to go along side her current gut motility medication and painkiller xx

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I thought she was on Cisipride ?? If you have another read of this link, go to pages 3 and 4 'Treatment'

http://anyflip.com/dvpt/hzvv

Re fluids, it can be difficult to get enough in orally and that is why it is often beneficial to give fluids IV or subcutaneously aswell as orally. 100ml/kg over a 24 hour period.

 

[Graciee]

I thought she was on Cisipride ?? If you have another read of this link, go to pages 3 and 4 'Treatment'

http://anyflip.com/dvpt/hzvv

Re fluids, it can be difficult to get enough in orally and that is why it is often beneficial to give fluids IV or subcutaneously aswell as orally. 100ml/kg over a 24 hour period.

Yes she is on cisapride - sorry I'm tired probably not making a whole lot of sense - I was asking if she could be on Emeprid and cisapride at the same time? If that would help, because I have Emeprid here and I know what dose she'd need etc

I can't really do the fluid thing without a vet though can I? thanks for your help xx

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[Jack's-Jane]

Yes she is on cisapride - sorry I'm tired probably not making a whole lot of sense - I was asking if she could be on Emeprid and cisapride at the same time? If that would help, because I have Emeprid here and I know what dose she'd need etc

I can't really do the fluid thing without a vet though can I? thanks for your help xx

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I am not qualified to advise you to give the Metoclopramide (Emeprid) too as it's a POM and only your Vet can prescribe it. My Vet has prescribed both Cisipride and Metoclopramide together, but please check with your Vet regarding Fleur.

 

[Graciee]

I am not qualified to advise you to give the Metoclopramide (Emeprid) too as it's a POM and only your Vet can prescribe it. My Vet has prescribed both Cisipride and Metoclopramide together, but please check with your Vet regarding Fleur.

Yes last time she had Emeprid and cisapride together, I would check with my vet but they're closed and their out of hours isn't bunny friendly [emoji38] she's started pooping more but I think she's biting them in half? Does this mean anything? :S

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[MightyMax]

Yes William is great, it's just he wasn't there a few days last week so I saw someone else who is an exotics specialist but no one is like William [emoji38] hopefully next week I'll try see William. The vet I saw didn't mention anything about that just said Fleur had gas in her colon. Obviously I don't have access to lactulose but I have been syringing water into her, as she's not drinking the vet I saw said to do 5 ml every 4 hours, however I'm not sure about that because William once said about 100 ml per kg of weight over a 24 hour period. Any suggestions on how much you'd give? She's 2.6kg.


Does Emeprid work in a different way to Cisapride? Wondering if I can get an appointment with William or take her down to vets4pets I could get them to prescribe something else maybe to go along side her current gut motility medication and painkiller xx

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Hi Grace

Sorry to hear things still aren't right.

An exotics vet (and certainly William!) will be able to distinguish between cecal impaction and gas/stasis etc.

This has some good info on cecal impaction:

http://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/

I personally wouldn't use lactulose unless the vet had prescribed it. It's an osmotic and draws water into itself so not a good idea if a bun has dry fecal matter ...

Remind me what she's taking at the moment? Sorry - just come in so don't know the details :wave:

 

[MightyMax]

Yes last time she had Emeprid and cisapride together, I would check with my vet but they're closed and their out of hours isn't bunny friendly [emoji38] she's started pooping more but I think she's biting them in half? Does this mean anything? :S

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To add to this post - if a bunny is in stasis and the vet thinks it's necessary, cicsapride, metaclopromide and ranitidine (zantac) are very often prescribed together.

 

[Graciee]

Hi Grace

Sorry to hear things still aren't right.

An exotics vet (and certainly William!) will be able to distinguish between cecal impaction and gas/stasis etc.

This has some good info on cecal impaction:

http://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/

I personally wouldn't use lactulose unless the vet had prescribed it. It's an osmotic and draws water into itself so not a good idea if a bun has dry fecal matter ...

Remind me what she's taking at the moment? Sorry - just come in so don't know the details :wave:

Hi that's okay, not seen William yet unfortunately gunna try get her seen by him Monday (hope he's in then)

She's on cisapride 3 times a day and loxicom 2 times a day

Thanks for the link, I'll have more of a read.

She's definitely not herself x

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[MightyMax]

Hi that's okay, not seen William yet unfortunately gunna try get her seen by him Monday (hope he's in then)

She's on cisapride 3 times a day and loxicom 2 times a day

Thanks for the link, I'll have more of a read.

She's definitely not herself x

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When I had the extended and very serious problem with my rabbit recently, I was given Metaclop, Zantac and Cisapride, alongside Metacam.

Also, so many of the things you are doing are beneficial whatever's going on.

These things also take time, and I am glad to see she is pooing. An excellent sign

 

[Jack's-Jane]

Yes last time she had Emeprid and cisapride together, I would check with my vet but they're closed and their out of hours isn't bunny friendly [emoji38] she's started pooping more but I think she's biting them in half? Does this mean anything? :S

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It can happen as a sign of 'craving fibre' as seen in certain types of reduced GI tract motility . Or sometimes a Rabbit will attempt to pull hard/dry fecal pellets from their anus if they are struggling to pass them.

When I have cared for Rabbits with cecal impaction the treatment included fluids given IV initially, then subcutaneously. Lactulose was given as it's osmotic properties draws fluid into the bowel, rehydrating the impacted contents. Lactulose also has an added benefit of 'mopping up' toxins in the blood stream. A Rabbit in gut stasis may have reduced liver function and thus the liver may not be efficiently clearing toxins.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/242214

http://glstva.com/glstva_dlds/system-disorder/hepatic-encephalopathy-and-lactulose/#.WqTBhOjFLcs

The Rabbits were also prescribed Cisapride and Metoclopramide as prokinetics and Tramadol as analgesic cover. NSAIDs such as Meloxicam (Metacam etc) may be contraindicated in cases of cecal impaction due to their negative pharmacokinetic effect on prostaglandin production. The treatment had to be ongoing for 7-10 days and in one case as a last resort a Prostaglandin was given. Thankfully it worked.

I think I'd try to get William to see Fleur ASAP next week. I am sure that his expert advice will be the best one to follow. My input is purely based on what I have experienced as a Pet Rabbit care giver, not on any Veterinary qualifications of any sort

I hope that Fleur is doing as well as possible today xx

 

[Graciee]

It can happen as a sign of 'craving fibre' as seen in certain types of reduced GI tract motility . Or sometimes a Rabbit will attempt to pull hard/dry fecal pellets from their anus if they are struggling to pass them.

When I have cared for Rabbits with cecal impaction the treatment included fluids given IV initially, then subcutaneously. Lactulose was given as it's osmotic properties draws fluid into the bowel, rehydrating the impacted contents. Lactulose also has an added benefit of 'mopping up' toxins in the blood stream. A Rabbit in gut stasis may have reduced liver function and thus the liver may not be efficiently clearing toxins.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/242214

http://glstva.com/glstva_dlds/system-disorder/hepatic-encephalopathy-and-lactulose/#.WqTBhOjFLcs

The Rabbits were also prescribed Cisapride and Metoclopramide as prokinetics and Tramadol as analgesic cover. NSAIDs such as Meloxicam (Metacam etc) may be contraindicated in cases of cecal impaction due to their negative pharmacokinetic effect on prostaglandin production. The treatment had to be ongoing for 7-10 days and in one case as a last resort a Prostaglandin was given. Thankfully it worked.

I think I'd try to get William to see Fleur ASAP next week. I am sure that his expert advice will be the best one to follow. My input is purely based on what I have experienced as a Pet Rabbit care giver, not on any Veterinary qualifications of any sort

I hope that Fleur is doing as well as possible today xx

Yes definitely going to try get an appointment with William, thank you for all the information

Regarding the poo eating/breaking it half - I notice she did this a lot before she got ill and I often see her pulling those types out of her bum... (even when she's 'healthy') I mean she does eat hay, not as much as the other two.. But she is smaller than them? Is she lacking something in her diet that could be causing this maybe? xx

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[Jack's-Jane]

Yes definitely going to try get an appointment with William, thank you for all the information

Regarding the poo eating/breaking it half - I notice she did this a lot before she got ill and I often see her pulling those types out of her bum... (even when she's 'healthy') I mean she does eat hay, not as much as the other two.. But she is smaller than them? Is she lacking something in her diet that could be causing this maybe? xx

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Usually long fibre is what is essential to promote a healthy gut motility.

''The key part of the rabbit’s digestive process is the regulation of colonic
and cecal motility to allow the separation of intestinal contents into indigestible
wastes and fermentable substrates. The process is regulated by motility
in the colon and can be broadly subdivided into two ‘‘phases’’—the ‘‘hard
feces phase,’’ and the ‘‘soft feces phase’’ or ‘‘cecotroph production.’’ ''


''The rabbit’s gastrointestinal physiology is a complex system that centers
around the separation of digestible and indigestible components of the diet
in the proximal colon. The clinical importance of this system is the need for
a consistent diet high in long particle length (>0.5 mm) indigestible fiber to
maintain the motility of the cecum and colon.''

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ac07/9915d6e64fe1afe442204871cb21c282f31b.pdf

 

[Graciee]

Usually long fibre is what is essential to promote a healthy gut motility.

''The key part of the rabbit’s digestive process is the regulation of colonic
and cecal motility to allow the separation of intestinal contents into indigestible
wastes and fermentable substrates. The process is regulated by motility
in the colon and can be broadly subdivided into two ‘‘phases’’—the ‘‘hard
feces phase,’’ and the ‘‘soft feces phase’’ or ‘‘cecotroph production.’’ ''


''The rabbit’s gastrointestinal physiology is a complex system that centers
around the separation of digestible and indigestible components of the diet
in the proximal colon. The clinical importance of this system is the need for
a consistent diet high in long particle length (>0.5 mm) indigestible fiber to
maintain the motility of the cecum and colon.''

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ac07/9915d6e64fe1afe442204871cb21c282f31b.pdf

But what foods process long fibre? Sorry [emoji38] maybe I need to rethink her diet, but I mean I follow the whole loads of hay tiny amounts of pellets, forage and veggies and she get those apple and pear sticks to strip daily..

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[Jack's-Jane]

But what foods process long fibre? Sorry [emoji38] maybe I need to rethink her diet, but I mean I follow the whole loads of hay tiny amounts of pellets, forage and veggies and she get those apple and pear sticks to strip daily..

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Hay is the main source of long fibre. IME Rabbits with a chronic gut motility problem do better on a pellet free diet. Perhaps you could discuss this with William too. Here is a diet sheet that may be useful :

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/ar...heets/recommended-diet-for-adult-rabbits/view

 

[Graciee]

Hay is the main source of long fibre. IME Rabbits with a chronic gut motility problem do better on a pellet free diet. Perhaps you could discuss this with William too. Here is a diet sheet that may be useful :

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/ar...heets/recommended-diet-for-adult-rabbits/view

Mmm she basically gets what that list suggests but also just less than an egg cup of excel pellets per day - she's not eaten those for almost a week now though, so many if she recovers I won't give her any pellets and see how she does xx

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[MightyMax]

Mmm she basically gets what that list suggests but also just less than an egg cup of excel pellets per day - she's not eaten those for almost a week now though, so many if she recovers I won't give her any pellets and see how she does xx

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You could adjust her pellet intake to a very high fibre one like Oxbow? Alternatively, Fibafirst sticks contain long strand fibre which is excellent for gut and teeth - and they are delicious to boot (well to most rabbits )

Her diet sounds really good ..... Sometimes these things happen to rabbits on the best of diets. Could be hair from moulting, stress, or something we will never find out about.

How are you all this morning Grace?

 

[Graciee]

You could adjust her pellet intake to a very high fibre one like Oxbow? Alternatively, Fibafirst sticks contain long strand fibre which is excellent for gut and teeth - and they are delicious to boot (well to most rabbits )

Her diet sounds really good ..... Sometimes these things happen to rabbits on the best of diets. Could be hair from moulting, stress, or something we will never find out about.

How are you all this morning Grace?

Oh I didn't know oxbow did pellets I'll have a look, yes unfortunately she's the only one who won't eat the fibre first or the vet sticks she's very fussy [emoji38] Clementine eats them currently and isn't always that happy to get them but they get eaten eventually but Fleur won't touch them.

We're all okay, Fleur is not pooping again but hoping she will soon, I've taken some paracetamol to get rid of my migraine so feeling a little better thanks for asking xx

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[MightyMax]

Oh I didn't know oxbow did pellets I'll have a look, yes unfortunately she's the only one who won't eat the fibre first or the vet sticks she's very fussy [emoji38] Clementine eats them currently and isn't always that happy to get them but they get eaten eventually but Fleur won't touch them.

We're all okay, Fleur is not pooping again but hoping she will soon, I've taken some paracetamol to get rid of my migraine so feeling a little better thanks for asking xx

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Sorry about your poor head! I would ask for Metaclop when you speak with the vets.

I've an idea - I'll send it over to you. It helped my bun xx

 

[Graciee]

Sorry about your poor head! I would ask for Metaclop when you speak with the vets.

I've an idea - I'll send it over to you. It helped my bun xx

Oo okay I'll have a look into that and thanks xx

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[Graciee]

So is it the crude fibre I'm looking at? And what's the 'beneficial fibre'? That excel are talking about? [emoji38] xx

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[joey&boo]

I can't help with your pet food analysis but I would advise you keep up with her sticks. Branches / bark is really high in lignin / long fibres - no commercial food will come close.

My Boo eats fully formed poo from her bum too :?