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Eric - advice please (is it teeth?) U/D both boys are well
- Thread starter Jessica Rabbit
- Start date
Jessica Rabbit
Mama Doe
Hi everyone
I have taken Eric and Ernie to the vets.
Unfortunately it looks like Ernie was going into stasis this morning too! He has never had it. He hasn't eaten and just flopped and again, as Eric did, let me have a long cuddle
Please please please can I have some vibes for my poor boys!!!
I think the stress is getting too much for us all.
I have taken Eric and Ernie to the vets.
Unfortunately it looks like Ernie was going into stasis this morning too! He has never had it. He hasn't eaten and just flopped and again, as Eric did, let me have a long cuddle
Please please please can I have some vibes for my poor boys!!!
I think the stress is getting too much for us all.
giantbunnymummy
Warren Veteran
Awww hun, loads of vibes for your two lovely boys. Hope you get some answers at the vets.
Ted an Petal
Warren Veteran
o my goodness, this is the last thing you needed, sending loads of vibes for them.
Jessica Rabbit
Mama Doe
Thanks everyone
I'm really worried
I'm really worried
Here's the link...
We had been looking at several possibilities with different good vets and at first we thought it had something to do with the neutering, but that wasn't the case...
By the way, Eufrasie is doing great now...
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?p=2909080#post2909080
We had been looking at several possibilities with different good vets and at first we thought it had something to do with the neutering, but that wasn't the case...
By the way, Eufrasie is doing great now...
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?p=2909080#post2909080
Jessica Rabbit
Mama Doe
Thank you - I will mention this to the vets when I speak to them.
Glad Eufrasie is doing well.
Biscuit Bunny
Alpha Buck
Hiya
Crossing fingers and toes for you all. Such a worry
What did the vet say last night?
If unhappy with Petersfield one, seek a second opinion here:
http://www.companioncare.co.uk/portsmouth/the_team
Mackie Hobson
Don't know if you have had time to read this yet, but Vicky posted on our bunny group:
There is a strong relationship between 'Ileus (gut slowing)' and 'caecal balance (the balance between good and bad bacteria in the bunny's caecum)'. The two are interlinked....if you get caecal dysbiosis (the caecum gets out of balance - more bad bacteria multiplying) then this can trigger ilues and gut slowing. Similarily, gut slowing (ileus) can cause the caecum to get out of balance and caecal dysbiosis. Both can trigger gastric stasis as one often effects the other.
The caecum in the rabbit gut is highly important in rabbit digestion as it is where nutrients are processed and your bun produces a 'caecotroph' which it will normally, when in good health, reingest directly from the anus. You may not even be aware your bun is doing this as the reflex to bow the head and eat the caecotroph happens very quickly and often at night or late morning. It is the good bacteria in the caecum that ferment and process the nutrients. When the balance of gut flora (good and bad bacteria) get out of balance, things can start to go wrong, often this is noticeable by bunny producing excess caecotrophs that are discarded and not eaten (although there are other causes for this too...such as obesity - can't reach it's bum!, teeth problems, and following antibiotics or illness the caecotrophs may not smell or taste right so are discarded)
The other main cause for too many excess caecotrophs are diets too rich in starchy carbohydrates....that tend to linger in the gut, and diets simultaneously too low in fibre - large particles that pass throught the gut quickly and keep gut motility at its optimum.
Too many starches are things like ...too many pellets, sugary treats (including fruit, carrot root itself (not the tops) cereals, bread etc) Not enough fibre means...not enough hay/grass. Rabbits are hindgut digestors and have evolved to eat large amounts of tough fibrous material. Around 90% of your bunny's diet should be quality grass hay or grass - to keep the guts moving and the caecum in balance (not to mention wearing the teeth adequately - nothing else does this like hay/grass).
Buns producing soft squishy stools that don't even resemble caecotrophs (bunches of grapes) are actually producing malformed caecotrophs indicating that things are really out of balance and need sorting. The best thing for this is to cut right down on pellets and get your bun eating lots of quality hay (although if you bun isn't used to lots of hay you must do this gradually so they don't starve or lose weight) Also, leave off the veg for a day or two until things settle back to normal.
Antibiotics can also kill of the good bacteria in the gut and bring on an episode of caecal dysbiosis so often at these times a pro/pre biotic is a good idea.
Too much fur ingested or a foreign object can cause ileus or impaction, or a full obstruction. Lower gut obstructions tend to have a better prognosis than higher obstructions. The only way to tell is with an X-ray, and even experienced vets find it hard to differentiate and therefore, gut motility drugs are vital for all cases, even though in higher obstructions they are not recommended, often you have to risk it and administer them anyway i understand.
So, this is often what lies behind the trigger for an episode of GI stasis. The best thing you can then do is take all steps to prevent the above - make sure your bun has a diet very high in fibre (hay) and low in starch (only a small ration of pellets per day) and lots of leafy greens.
However, ileus or caecal imbalance leading to GI stasis normally requires a trigger, and the most common trigger is STRESS. Stress can take lots of different forms....if you have a lone house bunny and you go away for a wkend say, this separation can be enough to trigger an episode...you therefore, need to make carers and bunny sitters aware of what to look out for. Stress such as injury, trips to the vet, operations....AND GA's (general anaesthetics) can all trigger ilues or gut slowing. Pain - is the other big trigger. GA's actually have a slowing effect on the guts in addition to stress, and pain makes a bunny not want to eat...and a bunny not eating goes into ileus and stasis. Any stress releases catchecolamines (i think?) which have a slowing effect on the guts so just be aware of things that can trigger an epsiode.
Often ileus comes on over a few days.....it is unusual for it to be instant, and over the course of a day or two or even weeks, you will notice reduced droppings, smaller dropping and eventually a bun who appears huddled and lethargic and disinterested in eating - this is where you need to seek treatment, if not before.
Things i have noticed:
- Bunny hides somewhere or sits somewhere they never normally do, unusall place behind a sofa they never sit behind normally etc. for example
- Bunny pushes their tummy to the floor (researchers have found this to relieve pain from gas in the stomach - BLOAT)
- Bunny gets up and down and up and down and can't get comfortable (again due to the BLOAT in their tummies) But ears are up as they aren't relaxed and often eyes wide.
- Bunny will NOT accept any food even their favourite treat - seek medical attention NOW! DO NOT wait until morning - you will have to go to the on call out of hours vets.
Pain relief is VITAL - it makes ALL the difference. Sometimes, pain relief given very early on - when bunny is still alert and simply pressing tummy to the floor and refusing food can actually prevent an episode coming on. Bunnies in pain do not eat and this makes the ileus worse...if you give pain relief quickly bunny may eat themselves again within half an hour and the guts start moving again and disaster averted.
If your bunny is floppy and unresponsive then you need URGENT attention. Do not underestimate the value of pain relief, buns are prey animals and often do not show pain so as Clare said do not be fobbed off - a good vet will give it immediately for these symptoms.
If your bun won't self eat and is in stasis then they need the following:
syringe feeding, gut motility drugs and pain killers, to be kept warm, calm and quiet somewhere safe and dark if poss, and with their companion bunny if they have one. Heat pads or bottles filled with hot water wrapped in towels will help - buns lose heat quickly as they have small volume to surface area. Remember, a sick bun can't respond to heat or cold properly so you must make sure any heat pad is not scolding them. Some vets will hospitalise your bun and this may be necessary, but if you feel confident treating at home then most buns have a better prognosis back home in familiar surroundings.
There is another condition which mostly affects very young rabbits below 6 months of age called Mucoid Enteropathy - this is different to Gastric Stasis apparently and often more fatal, but has similar symptoms. Mucus production in the stools or from the bottom seem to be indicative. But I understand this can also trigger gastric stasis.
Some good articles i have found are:
http://www.greenwichrabbitrescue.com/gistasisthesilentkille.htm
http://www.vet2pet.co.uk/pethealth/rabbithealth/gutproblems_rabbit.asp
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=484
Crossing fingers and toes for you all. Such a worry
What did the vet say last night?
If unhappy with Petersfield one, seek a second opinion here:
http://www.companioncare.co.uk/portsmouth/the_team
Mackie Hobson
Don't know if you have had time to read this yet, but Vicky posted on our bunny group:
There is a strong relationship between 'Ileus (gut slowing)' and 'caecal balance (the balance between good and bad bacteria in the bunny's caecum)'. The two are interlinked....if you get caecal dysbiosis (the caecum gets out of balance - more bad bacteria multiplying) then this can trigger ilues and gut slowing. Similarily, gut slowing (ileus) can cause the caecum to get out of balance and caecal dysbiosis. Both can trigger gastric stasis as one often effects the other.
The caecum in the rabbit gut is highly important in rabbit digestion as it is where nutrients are processed and your bun produces a 'caecotroph' which it will normally, when in good health, reingest directly from the anus. You may not even be aware your bun is doing this as the reflex to bow the head and eat the caecotroph happens very quickly and often at night or late morning. It is the good bacteria in the caecum that ferment and process the nutrients. When the balance of gut flora (good and bad bacteria) get out of balance, things can start to go wrong, often this is noticeable by bunny producing excess caecotrophs that are discarded and not eaten (although there are other causes for this too...such as obesity - can't reach it's bum!, teeth problems, and following antibiotics or illness the caecotrophs may not smell or taste right so are discarded)
The other main cause for too many excess caecotrophs are diets too rich in starchy carbohydrates....that tend to linger in the gut, and diets simultaneously too low in fibre - large particles that pass throught the gut quickly and keep gut motility at its optimum.
Too many starches are things like ...too many pellets, sugary treats (including fruit, carrot root itself (not the tops) cereals, bread etc) Not enough fibre means...not enough hay/grass. Rabbits are hindgut digestors and have evolved to eat large amounts of tough fibrous material. Around 90% of your bunny's diet should be quality grass hay or grass - to keep the guts moving and the caecum in balance (not to mention wearing the teeth adequately - nothing else does this like hay/grass).
Buns producing soft squishy stools that don't even resemble caecotrophs (bunches of grapes) are actually producing malformed caecotrophs indicating that things are really out of balance and need sorting. The best thing for this is to cut right down on pellets and get your bun eating lots of quality hay (although if you bun isn't used to lots of hay you must do this gradually so they don't starve or lose weight) Also, leave off the veg for a day or two until things settle back to normal.
Antibiotics can also kill of the good bacteria in the gut and bring on an episode of caecal dysbiosis so often at these times a pro/pre biotic is a good idea.
Too much fur ingested or a foreign object can cause ileus or impaction, or a full obstruction. Lower gut obstructions tend to have a better prognosis than higher obstructions. The only way to tell is with an X-ray, and even experienced vets find it hard to differentiate and therefore, gut motility drugs are vital for all cases, even though in higher obstructions they are not recommended, often you have to risk it and administer them anyway i understand.
So, this is often what lies behind the trigger for an episode of GI stasis. The best thing you can then do is take all steps to prevent the above - make sure your bun has a diet very high in fibre (hay) and low in starch (only a small ration of pellets per day) and lots of leafy greens.
However, ileus or caecal imbalance leading to GI stasis normally requires a trigger, and the most common trigger is STRESS. Stress can take lots of different forms....if you have a lone house bunny and you go away for a wkend say, this separation can be enough to trigger an episode...you therefore, need to make carers and bunny sitters aware of what to look out for. Stress such as injury, trips to the vet, operations....AND GA's (general anaesthetics) can all trigger ilues or gut slowing. Pain - is the other big trigger. GA's actually have a slowing effect on the guts in addition to stress, and pain makes a bunny not want to eat...and a bunny not eating goes into ileus and stasis. Any stress releases catchecolamines (i think?) which have a slowing effect on the guts so just be aware of things that can trigger an epsiode.
Often ileus comes on over a few days.....it is unusual for it to be instant, and over the course of a day or two or even weeks, you will notice reduced droppings, smaller dropping and eventually a bun who appears huddled and lethargic and disinterested in eating - this is where you need to seek treatment, if not before.
Things i have noticed:
- Bunny hides somewhere or sits somewhere they never normally do, unusall place behind a sofa they never sit behind normally etc. for example
- Bunny pushes their tummy to the floor (researchers have found this to relieve pain from gas in the stomach - BLOAT)
- Bunny gets up and down and up and down and can't get comfortable (again due to the BLOAT in their tummies) But ears are up as they aren't relaxed and often eyes wide.
- Bunny will NOT accept any food even their favourite treat - seek medical attention NOW! DO NOT wait until morning - you will have to go to the on call out of hours vets.
Pain relief is VITAL - it makes ALL the difference. Sometimes, pain relief given very early on - when bunny is still alert and simply pressing tummy to the floor and refusing food can actually prevent an episode coming on. Bunnies in pain do not eat and this makes the ileus worse...if you give pain relief quickly bunny may eat themselves again within half an hour and the guts start moving again and disaster averted.
If your bunny is floppy and unresponsive then you need URGENT attention. Do not underestimate the value of pain relief, buns are prey animals and often do not show pain so as Clare said do not be fobbed off - a good vet will give it immediately for these symptoms.
If your bun won't self eat and is in stasis then they need the following:
syringe feeding, gut motility drugs and pain killers, to be kept warm, calm and quiet somewhere safe and dark if poss, and with their companion bunny if they have one. Heat pads or bottles filled with hot water wrapped in towels will help - buns lose heat quickly as they have small volume to surface area. Remember, a sick bun can't respond to heat or cold properly so you must make sure any heat pad is not scolding them. Some vets will hospitalise your bun and this may be necessary, but if you feel confident treating at home then most buns have a better prognosis back home in familiar surroundings.
There is another condition which mostly affects very young rabbits below 6 months of age called Mucoid Enteropathy - this is different to Gastric Stasis apparently and often more fatal, but has similar symptoms. Mucus production in the stools or from the bottom seem to be indicative. But I understand this can also trigger gastric stasis.
Some good articles i have found are:
http://www.greenwichrabbitrescue.com/gistasisthesilentkille.htm
http://www.vet2pet.co.uk/pethealth/rabbithealth/gutproblems_rabbit.asp
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=484
Last edited:
Biscuit Bunny
Alpha Buck
also posted:
Most vets operate a 24hr emergency clinic - it is always a good idea if you have a rabbit to find a bunny savy vet who does offer this service. It does cost a lot of money, but it can save your bunny's life if you don't know what is wrong with them. It is certainly, until you are very familiar with certain recognisable illnesses, to always get an expert opinion from a vet for emergencies, as we all know how quickly a bun can deteriorate.
For example between 7-11pm our vet consulation costs £75 I think, then after 11pm it is around £100+ we have done this on two occasions, but are now happy we know the signs and what to look for and how to treat at home. If you have a bunny who regularly gets GI stasis you need to first re-assess their diet - and get more fibre (hay) into it, and cut down on fruits and pellets and other starchy carbohydrates (like carrot root). Second, think about stressful events in the few days before an episode? Has your bunny injured itself? had a fright? had an op? been in the car anywhere? are there any changes or disturbance at home?
Once you are familiar with stasis if you have a bun who gets this a lot - some are more susceptible than others - it is worth talking to your vet about building up the medicines to keep at home so that you can treat immediately without delay and save your bun the stress of a trip to the vet.
We have the following in our bunny emergency kit:
- Metacam Oral (I make sure I get a new bottle each year as once opened it can lose efficacy - I do have to talk to my vet about this and make a request over the phone and then go in and collect)
- Metclopramide (Maxolon paediatric) on prescription from vet - again i make sure i always have enough left for a course of treatment - sometimes I check what i need before a routine consult or vaccination and top up my medicines then with the vet)
- Zantac
- Infacol (paediatric prep) available from any pharmacy - it is an infant preparation for babies with colic. Usual dose is 1ml 3x a day but CHECK with vet as concentration i think can differ in different medicines. This is useful when your bun has the wind and gurgling tummy associated with bloat - not all cases of stasis have this symptom - but it is common.
- Fibreplex pro and pre biotic fibre preparation to rebalance the gut - this is available from your vet WITHOUT prescription so it is a good idea to keep some handy as can be used if your bun is on antibiotics - but again CHECK with your vet if is necessary.
- Critical Care by Oxbow, or Supreme Science Recovery - both syringe foods - always make sure you have some of this ready for an emergency. Available from your vet or the Hay Experts www.thehayexperts.com or the RWA shop i think. I sometimes mix the two together when made up as our bunny prefers the Supreme Science one, but the Critical Care is, in my opinion, higher in fibre, and causes less loose stools after use.
- Bach Five Flower Rescue Remedy - one drop is the dose - for use before travelling by car if a long journey, or for use after a shock or mild injury.
- A heat pad made by snugglesafe - available from the Hay Experts, RWA shop and other stockists. Also vet beds and thermo vet beds as sick buns lose their body heat very quickly. An alternative is plastic 1litre bottles filled with warm water wrapped in towels. Don't forget - a compromised bun can not respond to extremes of heat or cold so make sure not too hot.
Please remember to ALWAYS CHECK WITH YOUR VET over the phone if necessary, before administering any medication yourself at home. I ALWAYS DO.
If you can't get to a vet that night or evening then the following may be helpful -
Keep bunny warm, and hydrated with wet veg or runny syringe food. DO NOT syringe feed water as bunny could aspirate this. Most importantly, keep your bunny eating, if they won't self eat then you must syringe feed if nothing has been eaten at all in 8-12 hrs - especially if no droppings or reduced droppings. If you have no Critical Care or Recovery then the following website might be helpful:
http://www.carrotcafe.com/n/syringefeed.html
Keep tempting bun to self eat regularly - strongly scented fresh herbs like basil, mint, thyme, coriander etc can be very useful, as can their favourite treat or mushed up pellets with warm water - just get them eating.
Even if you do treat at home, most vets will want to see your bunny the next day for a check up and to make sure you haven't missed anything. It is very important that if you are not sure what is wrong with your bun that you get them to your vet ASAP. Do not wait until morning if your bunny has stopped eating and is sitting huddled in the corner or has gone floppy.
Most vets operate a 24hr emergency clinic - it is always a good idea if you have a rabbit to find a bunny savy vet who does offer this service. It does cost a lot of money, but it can save your bunny's life if you don't know what is wrong with them. It is certainly, until you are very familiar with certain recognisable illnesses, to always get an expert opinion from a vet for emergencies, as we all know how quickly a bun can deteriorate.
For example between 7-11pm our vet consulation costs £75 I think, then after 11pm it is around £100+ we have done this on two occasions, but are now happy we know the signs and what to look for and how to treat at home. If you have a bunny who regularly gets GI stasis you need to first re-assess their diet - and get more fibre (hay) into it, and cut down on fruits and pellets and other starchy carbohydrates (like carrot root). Second, think about stressful events in the few days before an episode? Has your bunny injured itself? had a fright? had an op? been in the car anywhere? are there any changes or disturbance at home?
Once you are familiar with stasis if you have a bun who gets this a lot - some are more susceptible than others - it is worth talking to your vet about building up the medicines to keep at home so that you can treat immediately without delay and save your bun the stress of a trip to the vet.
We have the following in our bunny emergency kit:
- Metacam Oral (I make sure I get a new bottle each year as once opened it can lose efficacy - I do have to talk to my vet about this and make a request over the phone and then go in and collect)
- Metclopramide (Maxolon paediatric) on prescription from vet - again i make sure i always have enough left for a course of treatment - sometimes I check what i need before a routine consult or vaccination and top up my medicines then with the vet)
- Zantac
- Infacol (paediatric prep) available from any pharmacy - it is an infant preparation for babies with colic. Usual dose is 1ml 3x a day but CHECK with vet as concentration i think can differ in different medicines. This is useful when your bun has the wind and gurgling tummy associated with bloat - not all cases of stasis have this symptom - but it is common.
- Fibreplex pro and pre biotic fibre preparation to rebalance the gut - this is available from your vet WITHOUT prescription so it is a good idea to keep some handy as can be used if your bun is on antibiotics - but again CHECK with your vet if is necessary.
- Critical Care by Oxbow, or Supreme Science Recovery - both syringe foods - always make sure you have some of this ready for an emergency. Available from your vet or the Hay Experts www.thehayexperts.com or the RWA shop i think. I sometimes mix the two together when made up as our bunny prefers the Supreme Science one, but the Critical Care is, in my opinion, higher in fibre, and causes less loose stools after use.
- Bach Five Flower Rescue Remedy - one drop is the dose - for use before travelling by car if a long journey, or for use after a shock or mild injury.
- A heat pad made by snugglesafe - available from the Hay Experts, RWA shop and other stockists. Also vet beds and thermo vet beds as sick buns lose their body heat very quickly. An alternative is plastic 1litre bottles filled with warm water wrapped in towels. Don't forget - a compromised bun can not respond to extremes of heat or cold so make sure not too hot.
Please remember to ALWAYS CHECK WITH YOUR VET over the phone if necessary, before administering any medication yourself at home. I ALWAYS DO.
If you can't get to a vet that night or evening then the following may be helpful -
Keep bunny warm, and hydrated with wet veg or runny syringe food. DO NOT syringe feed water as bunny could aspirate this. Most importantly, keep your bunny eating, if they won't self eat then you must syringe feed if nothing has been eaten at all in 8-12 hrs - especially if no droppings or reduced droppings. If you have no Critical Care or Recovery then the following website might be helpful:
http://www.carrotcafe.com/n/syringefeed.html
Keep tempting bun to self eat regularly - strongly scented fresh herbs like basil, mint, thyme, coriander etc can be very useful, as can their favourite treat or mushed up pellets with warm water - just get them eating.
Even if you do treat at home, most vets will want to see your bunny the next day for a check up and to make sure you haven't missed anything. It is very important that if you are not sure what is wrong with your bun that you get them to your vet ASAP. Do not wait until morning if your bunny has stopped eating and is sitting huddled in the corner or has gone floppy.
Jessica Rabbit
Mama Doe
Hi Biscuit bunny
Thank you for all the info. Will have a good read now.
The vets couldn't see anything Obvious with Eric, but said the way to see properly was to go under GA. So I agreed to go ahead today. I have also asked them to x-ray his tummy to check for any blockages or anything else.
I have also asked them to have a look at Ernie.
I hope it's nothing and they are o.k
Can't think why this has happened. Nothing has changed. I never change things as they have seemed so settled for a long while.
Thank you for all the info. Will have a good read now.
The vets couldn't see anything Obvious with Eric, but said the way to see properly was to go under GA. So I agreed to go ahead today. I have also asked them to x-ray his tummy to check for any blockages or anything else.
I have also asked them to have a look at Ernie.
I hope it's nothing and they are o.k
Can't think why this has happened. Nothing has changed. I never change things as they have seemed so settled for a long while.
Biscuit Bunny
Alpha Buck
I really hope so too, when are they going to phone you?
I hate waiting around.
*big hugs* Clare xxxx
I hate waiting around.
*big hugs* Clare xxxx
Jessica Rabbit
Mama Doe
They didn't give a time
Sitting here worried now. I took them at 9.10am and hoped they would be seen straight away. Maybe they will only call if they need to do some work on them and need to get permission. Just hoping it's all gone o.k and they are waiting for Eric to come round from the GA
Or maybe they just haven't got round to seeing them yet.
I'll give it a bit more time and then perhaps give them a call.
Biscuit Bunny
Alpha Buck
You may find that they do all ops after the morning patients, They are in the best place at the moment though.
I'm a firm believer in no news is good news.
I'm a firm believer in no news is good news.
