baytril- can it be given permenantly

Hi all
I have a rabbit with e.c and hind leg weakness. She keep getting urine infections and we have tried quite a few antibiotics which have all cleared the infection only for it to keep returning. We have also tried diuretics to flush it out. She has also had a sludgy bladder in the past but that seems to be ok at the moment.

She is on a good diet with tramadol and Meacham for her hind leg problems which will also help her bladder.

I am now wondering if giving her baytril permanently would be the answer but I can't seem to find any info on this and its not something my vet has done before. I'm sure I have heard of owners with snuffles using it all the time?


Any thoughts or advice Wold be very welcome.

Hi.

Has she been treated with panacur for e.c?

I've used antibiotics long term in other species (ferrets). The only trouble is you do eventually get resistance, but even if you start and stop antibiotics you get this.

What was her longest course? It's possible they're treating until the symptoms go, but stopping to soon before all of it has been cleared.

I'd increase her water intake as much as physically possible.
Water bowls all around her enclosure to remind her to drink etc. Feeding high water content vegetables like cucumber.

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Thanks. She has had panacur and I have increased her water intake as much as possible for along time now

. I do agree that stopping and starting antibiotics can cause resistance and this is why I'm trying to find a different plan. You may be right regarding not being on the antibiotics long enough and I think the longest course was 2 weeks. I test her urine daily with a test strip and the blood has always disappeared well before the course has ended.

bunny mad lisa said:

Thanks. She has had panacur and I have increased her water intake as much as possible for along time now

. I do agree that stopping and starting antibiotics can cause resistance and this is why I'm trying to find a different plan. You may be right regarding not being on the antibiotics long enough and I think the longest course was 2 weeks. I test her urine daily with a test strip and the blood has always disappeared well before the course has ended.

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A dip test won't show what bacteria you're fighting.

It's worth sending a sample to the lab for a culture and sensitivity. This way they can see what bacteria she has, and what it can be successfully treated with.

It's worth when finish the course sending a second sample to the lab to check it's been successfully treated.

Some of them can be difficult to shift and can need around 3+ weeks of antibiotics.

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I have used it for extended periods with an EC bunny who was elderly and unstable without it - for around a year? (can't remember exactly, but was more than a few months). We have also had jaw abscess bunnies on penicillin based antibiotics for 1-2 years.

daphnephoebe said:

A dip test won't show what bacteria you're fighting.

It's worth sending a sample to the lab for a culture and sensitivity. This way they can see what bacteria she has, and what it can be successfully treated with.

It's worth when finish the course sending a second sample to the lab to check it's been successfully treated.

Some of them can be difficult to shift and can need around 3+ weeks of antibiotics.

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I agree with d+p on this one. Also, Rabbits with a history of EC can develop renal problems so if your Rabbit has not had a recent full blood profile run that may be a good idea too.

Some 'EC Rabbits' need help to enable them to fully empty their bladder. Sometimes they may hold their wee in for ages and/or they may just do spots of wee, never fully emptying their bladder. This can lead to both a build up of calcium sediment which irritates the bladder wall causing repeated infections.

Jack's-Jane said:

I agree with d+p on this one. Also, Rabbits with a history of EC can develop renal problems so if your Rabbit has not had a recent full blood profile run that may be a good idea too.

Some 'EC Rabbits' need help to enable them to fully empty their bladder. Sometimes they may hold their wee in for ages and/or they may just do spots of wee, never fully emptying their bladder. This can lead to both a build up of calcium sediment which irritates the bladder wall causing repeated infections.

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Jane do you think something like cystaid could benefit bladder repair if there are repeat cases of infection and cystitis? Obviously with a vet discussion as I've never known it used in rabbits.

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Shimmer said:

I have used it for extended periods with an EC bunny who was elderly and unstable without it - for around a year

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Shimmer said:

? (can't remember exactly, but was more than a few months). We have also had jaw abscess bunnies on penicillin based antibiotics for 1-2 years.

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me too. Little Noodley was under Frances Harcourt Brown

daphnephoebe said:

Jane do you think something like cystaid could benefit bladder repair if there are repeat cases of infection and cystitis? Obviously with a vet discussion as I've never known it used in rabbits.

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I haven't used it myself but I know of a few folk who have. It would certainly be worthwhile for the OP to ask the Vet if it'd be appropriate for her/his Rabbit xx

Cystaid - no experience of its use in rabbits - but we have a cat with chronic cystitis and she is on cystaid. She is now on a low dose (1 tablet a week) and a special diet (Hill's c/d). It has taken many years to get her to the point where she can eat some other food without having a 3 week attack of cystitis (she pinches the food from the other cats, and they try to get hers. One meal used to be enough to make her poorly for weeks). The cystaid has definitely made a difference to her quality of life over the years, although it is now really a backup in case of another attack. We have tried other similar preparations (eg VetUK's own brand) but keep going back to the original cystaid as it has a different formulation (and much smaller capsules to swallow).

Not sure how rabbits and cats differ in the chemistry / biochemistry of cystitis. Our cat has a very twitchy bladder and develops crystals if kept on standard cat food. She then wees blood (lots) and then gets secondary bacterial infections from a dirty bum from eating the wrong food - so it's a vicious cycle for her if it is not proactively managed. Each cycle takes several weeks of treatment to clear up and stabilise her again. With management, she hasn't had a full blown attack for a couple of years. At the first indications, she has a daily cystaid capsule.

Basically, I'm trying to say that it does work in cats. Definitely worth asking the vet about its use in rabbits. Some of the ingredients may not be suitable or its mode of action may not be relevant to rabbits. I would be interested to know the answer.

I guess cystaid would depend on what culture shows?
Definitely worth asking the vet if you have difficulty clearing up her infections as there is no doubt damage to the bladder wall which cystaid can repair over time.

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Thanks everyone for the info!

My vet showed me how to express Milly's bladder so I do that at least 3 times a day and I haven't seen any sludge for a few months now and I am very strict of her diet now and she gets as much water as possible. She is also having physio for her legs which is helping somewhat.

Its frustrating as she is a happy girl and I just want to do my best for her. As suggested by DP I have decided that my next step needs to be getting a urine sample sent off which I'm going t do today and see what that shows. I have an appointment with my vet when he gets back on Wednesday.

I haven't heard of crystalaid so will research that further. My vet is a small practice and I know he will not have tried it on rabbits. Most of the things we do try have been suggested by myself! Or we have conferred with other vets such as FHB.

daphnephoebe said:

I guess cystaid would depend on what culture shows?
Definitely worth asking the vet if you have difficulty clearing up her infections as there is no doubt damage to the bladder wall which cystaid can repair over time.

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Thanks, going to get a sample sent off today as you suggested! When I express her bladder I can tell when she is getting an infection again as there is a thickening of the bladder which only goes again once she has had antibiotics.

Did the Vet advise you to express the bladder as often as 3 times a day ? It's just that doing so can actually cause inflammation and in turn the more risk of secondary infection.

A urine sample taken by Cystocentesis would give more reliable results than a sample taken from free flow/manual expression

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00...div_TechniquesRabbit/Cystocentesis_Rabbit.htm

bunny mad lisa said:

Hi all
I have a rabbit with e.c and hind leg weakness. She keep getting urine infections and we have tried quite a few antibiotics which have all cleared the infection only for it to keep returning. We have also tried diuretics to flush it out. She has also had a sludgy bladder in the past but that seems to be ok at the moment.

She is on a good diet with tramadol and Meacham for her hind leg problems which will also help her bladder.

I am now wondering if giving her baytril permanently would be the answer but I can't seem to find any info on this and its not something my vet has done before. I'm sure I have heard of owners with snuffles using it all the time?


Any thoughts or advice Wold be very welcome.

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To answer your original question - yes you can give antibiotics long term. Whatever they are, you can give them for years without a break if necessary. I have done so with success

Jack's-Jane said:

Did the Vet advise you to express the bladder as often as 3 times a day ? It's just that doing so can actually cause inflammation and in turn the more risk of secondary infection.

A urine sample taken by Cystocentesis would give more reliable results than a sample taken from free flow/manual expression

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00...div_TechniquesRabbit/Cystocentesis_Rabbit.htm

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Thanks Jane. Milly can only lie on her side as she can't walk so I express it to help stop urine scald and to stop her holding on to urine and causing sludge build up. She needs it at least 3 times a day and I try to be as gentle as possible. I've take in a urine sample to be sent off for testing and although cystocentesis may be a better way I don't feel it would be right to put milly through that as she gets very stressed at the vets.

thank you, its good to know others have done it. Its obviously a last resort but Milly already has so much against her that its her quality of life that matters now rather than quantity.

bunny mad lisa said:

thank you, its good to know others have done it. Its obviously a last resort but Milly already has so much against her that its her quality of life that matters now rather than quantity.

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I weighed this up recently with a rabbit of mine. Every day antibiotics to keep stable, and it did

I'll also weigh in and say that Mimzy was on antibiotics for at least six months straight when he got head tilt. One of them was baytril. I found not only did he tolerate it well and it seemed to benefit him as far as the original pathogen, but it also stabilized his bowels and he made lovely poos the whole time he was on it. I never had a problem getting him to take it either which was a switch up from my other two rabbits who loathe the stuff. I don't doubt that long term can cause resistance, but you'd have to consider that in contrast to whether it's worth doing to help keep her bladder clear and comfortable for however long it will work.

Mimzy is now almost 10 years old and still going strong despite having residual tilt. He does have urinary issues also and a twisted spine/hip problems, but a recent xray showed nothing fractured, broken or otherwise misaligned, he's just wonky due to his inner ear being damaged so severely. We never discerned if it was E.C. that caused his sudden onset tilt or just a very bad ear infection. Considering his other issues I'd tend to think the former.

I hope you can find something to help Milly, Lisa. xxxx

Thanks so much for sharing that... really helpful! Glad Mimzy is still doing well x