would you change 1/3 of the water source to boil water to prevent kidney stone

[RedFraggle]

When you boil water you create steam. The steam is pure water and anything else volatile, no minerals. If that steam is then condensed (I.e. Cooled back from being steam to a liquid again) that cooled condensed steam is distilled water. Reverse osmosis is a physical process that achieves the same thing.
The part of the water that was boiled, will contain all the minerals but in less volume as you've lost some water as steam so boiled water will contain more calcium and other minerals than you started with.
Think of the minerals as being marbles. If you boil a pan of water and marbles you end up with all the marbles still in the pan and no water.

 

[SarahP]

That explains it much better than I did!

 

[RedFraggle]

That explains it much better than I did!

I'm a chemist

 

[Happy Hopping]

say I don't have $ for RO water, what about those Britta filter? would that filter out the Calcium ? and what water do you people give to your mid age to senior bun?

 

[SarahP]

Brita filters definitely help reduce the calcium down a bit. They don't perform miracles when it comes to very hard water though.

That's the thing though, it really depends on how much calcium your water contains in the first place. In the UK, there are huge differences depending on where you live.

 

[Shimmer]

Fresh rain water collected from a clean container, or use water from defrosting a freezer - both will be softer than hard drinking water.

RO water shouldn't cost much, but I suspect (like distilled water) it won't taste nice.

 

[Happy Hopping]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purified_water#Health_effects_of_drinking_purified_water

so I was about to get a RO system and go w/ Tam's idea to have 1/3 of the source as pure water to reduce the chance of kidney stone. Then I came across this, in which the 1st quoted paragraph proves my concern,

Recommendations for magnesium have been put at a minimum of 10 mg/L with 20–30 mg/L optimum; for calcium a 20 mg/L minimum and a 40–80 mg/L optimum, and a total water hardness (adding magnesium and calcium) of 2–4 mmol/L. At water hardness above 5 mmol/L, higher incidences of gallstones, kidney stones, urinary stones, arthrosis, and arthropathies have been observed. For fluoride, the concentration recommended for dental health is 0.5–1.0 mg/L, with a maximum guideline value of 1.5 mg/L to avoid dental fluorosis.[19]

but now the following is saying w/o mineral, it's not good for the heart. Now my buns and myself do eat bananas every 2nd day for the heart, but this paragraph is saying you need those mineral water. So I don't know what is the right thing to do, w/ RO, it greatly reduces their chance of getting kidney stone, but I don't want to increase their chance of heart problem.

The study found that "drinking water sources available to North Americans may contain high levels of calcium, magnesium, and sodium and may provide clinically important portions of the recommended dietary intake of these minerals". It encouraged people to "check the mineral content of their drinking water, whether tap or bottled, and choose water most appropriate for their needs". Since distilled water is devoid of minerals, supplemental mineral intake through diet is needed to maintain proper health.

The consumption of "hard" water (water with minerals) is associated with beneficial cardiovascular effects. As noted in the American Journal of Epidemiology, the consumption of hard drinking water is negatively correlated with atherosclerotic heart disease

 

[Bunny Boo.]

Just to add, getting an RO filter to filter you own is expensive so some fish shops, particularly if they sell marines (salt water fish), may sell RO water - that's pure water with no calcium etc. in. We use it to mix up salt water to specific parameters and for keeping soft water fish as we're in a hard water area - I think in some places in the states they use it on drinking water.

You can then dilute your tap water with it e.g. 50% tap and 50% RO would lower the calcium by half.

I wouldn't bother for normal rabbits but if you're in a hard water area and your bun has calcium issues you could cut it right down.

I have a RO filter fitted in my garage, my husband keeps marine fish so it is vital that all the water he uses is pure. The water in the area we live in is very hard and my bunnies have suffered in the past with visible calcium in their litter trays, (lots of it) the biggest thing that cleared this problem was changing them onto the RO water. I give them 100% RO water. We now don't have the problem. They are expensive to buy but as Tamsin said you can buy the RO water from most fish shops where they sell marine fish.

 

[bunny momma]

Even when I had soft water for my bunnies a couple got bladder stones at a young age. I had fewer issues when I began to feed mostly timothy hay and only a small amount of pellets. Now I even purchase timothy based pellets instead of the alfalfa based pellets.
I now have hard water, so I should probably look closer at our water content because I see a lot of calcium in their trays.

 

[Happy Hopping]

when you 2 said you see "visible calcium" in the litter trays, exactly where is it? mix inside the poos, in the urine?

 

[SarahP]

I think rabbits are probably different from us with their mineral requirements (in particular, they metabolise calcium differently), but I'd personally not want to drink reverse osmosis water, because of the complete lack of minerals.

 

[Shimmer]

'Visible calcium' is the light coloured crust that forms on the bottom of the litter tray over time. It comes off in large, thin flakes. It is the salts that have precipitated out of the urine and crystalised on the tray - a bit like leaving a saucer of brine out to evaporate and you end up with salt crystals.

The figures and health effects you quote will be for humans. Rabbits have a totally different calcium metabolism to us. I still suggest that you look at the total dietary intake - not just drinking water. It's the whole picture that will have the health impact. If your rabbits are currently not showing clinical symptoms (and diagnosed by a vet), you are probably providing a good balanced intake.

 

[Bunny Boo.]

when you 2 said you see "visible calcium" in the litter trays, exactly where is it? mix inside the poos, in the urine?

This is what my girls litter tray looked like!:shock: So a complete diet change over the course of a month, I changed her pellet to a low calcium/phosphorus based one, I only give her veggies that are low in calcium, ad-lib hay and the Biggest thing that made a huge difference was the water. There is no visible calcium in her litter tray any more ( it comes out in their urine) and she seems a much happier bunny.

 

[Bunny Boo.]

I think rabbits are probably different from us with their mineral requirements (in particular, they metabolise calcium differently), but I'd personally not want to drink reverse osmosis water, because of the complete lack of minerals.

This was something i mentioned to my vet as i was concerned about the lack of minerals and she didn't seem to concerned. I think the main concern at the time was to reduce the visible amount of calcium that was in their litter tray every day. You can always mix it with bottled water or tap water if you are worried.

 

[SarahP]

This was something i mentioned to my vet as i was concerned about the lack of minerals and she didn't seem to concerned. I think the main concern at the time was to reduce the visible amount of calcium that was in their litter tray every day. You can always mix it with bottled water or tap water if you are worried.

Yes, I probably wasn't clear with what I wrote earlier, but my own view is that rabbits and guinea pigs are probably OK with reverse osmosis water, but humans perhaps not.

 

[MightyMax]

Yes, I probably wasn't clear with what I wrote earlier, but my own view is that rabbits and guinea pigs are probably OK with reverse osmosis water, but humans perhaps not.

Both rabbits and humans are fine with reverse osmosis water :thumb:

 

[SarahP]

Both rabbits and humans are fine with reverse osmosis water :thumb:

The only thing I'm thinking is that there are studies, as Happy Hopping has said, about the heart and minerals in the water. eg. suggestions that hard water is actually potentially good for the heart (for humans). This is, I assume, why a lot of people add minerals in after filtering.

 

[MiniC]

The only thing I'm thinking is that there are studies, as Happy Hopping has said, about the heart and minerals in the water. eg. suggestions that hard water is actually potentially good for the heart (for humans). This is, I assume, why a lot of people add minerals in after filtering.

This is right we can drink distilled water, but the soluble nutrients in our water are important for us. People who home distill, mostly add nutrients back in, but I think the attraction is that it loses chlorine and kills bacteria, and takes out any lead. The nutrients are probably important for our bunnies too, but suppose it's the concentration that's the problem :?

 

[MightyMax]

The only thing I'm thinking is that there are studies, as Happy Hopping has said, about the heart and minerals in the water. eg. suggestions that hard water is actually potentially good for the heart (for humans). This is, I assume, why a lot of people add minerals in after filtering.

There are studies pro and con for most things. I suppose the proof is in the individual's use and it's effects ...

 

[SarahP]

There are studies pro and con for most things. I suppose the proof is in the individual's use and it's effects ...

Yes, definitely. Although I don't think anyone has ever claimed that hard water is actually bad for human health. It's the other stuff in water that is claimed to be bad (eg chlorine, hormones, heavy metals etc).

For bunnies and guinea pigs though, I think there is probably evidence that it can cause problems, due to the way they metabolize calcium.