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URGENT help needed

twistedtiggerz69

twistedtiggerz69

Mama Doe
Mischief and Lillabelle looked like they were about to fight. They were running around in a circle really fast and looked like one of them at least was trying to nip the other. They were spinning so fast it was hard to see clearly. Then Lillabelle ran into the puppy pen and Mischief chased her and I managed to grab Mischief and stop them.

I fed them both a treat a moment before and Mischief was up near me asking for another. I was watching TV so don't know exactly what happened after that. I just saw them spinning around.

We have seperated them but not sure what to do now. They are nose bumping each other through the puppy pen side. Do we split them up for tonight? How do we approach it from here please?

I'm so gutted [emoji22]

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As it's so late, I would probably separate them tonight, then you know they are safe - and you can supervise properly tomorrow. It would be useful to know what spooked them - but I wouldn't be staying up all night to supervise them if they stayed together. It may be worth moving their things round tomorrow and scatter feeding them to provide additional distractions and lots of hiding places (tunnels, boxes, etc).
 
Oh dear, I would guess this might have been triggered by either a lack of grooming reciprocation or a perceived treat issue.

I absolutely have to feed Rodney the treat first and then Blossom otherwise he will nip at her and chase. I've always assumed it's a dominance thing for him and Blossom is happy to respect that.

I would have a look at a rabbit tornado online and confirm if that's what you were seeing. If so I would separate for tonight and go back to bonding basics tomorrow.

Has their space been expanded today? That might have triggered it, they might need more time in a smaller one.

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Shimmer said:
As it's so late, I would probably separate them tonight, then you know they are safe - and you can supervise properly tomorrow. It would be useful to know what spooked them - but I wouldn't be staying up all night to supervise them if they stayed together. It may be worth moving their things round tomorrow and scatter feeding them to provide additional distractions and lots of hiding places (tunnels, boxes, etc).
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They are already in seperate cages for tonight. As it was late I felt I wouldn't be able to sleep and would need to supervise them.

So you are saying I could put them back together tomorrow? Should I do it in a more enclosed room? At the moment they now have the run of our bedroom and the long hallway. Lillabelle kept escaping into the hall and zooming up and down. Mischief hardly ever ventures out of the bedroom even though we try to encourage it.

I could put them back into the puppy pen so I can watch them better? It is already set up in our bedroom as their space to keep their things and where they are shut in at night.

I think it was an argument over a treat. They are both very food orientated.

Do I let them out in the bedroom and put in a house and stuff? I am thinking possibly keep them in the puppy pen to start with as I can see them better. If it kicks off under our bed it will be near impossible to break it up. I'm so nervous now of them fighting [emoji22]

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CarelessSquid07 said:
Oh dear, I would guess this might have been triggered by either a lack of grooming reciprocation or a perceived treat issue.

I absolutely have to feed Rodney the treat first and then Blossom otherwise he will nip at her and chase. I've always assumed it's a dominance thing for him and Blossom is happy to respect that.

I would have a look at a rabbit tornado online and confirm if that's what you were seeing. If so I would separate for tonight and go back to bonding basics tomorrow.

Has their space been expanded today? That might have triggered it, they might need more time in a smaller one.

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Click to expand...
Lillabelle was grooming Mischief today. He does ask her too a lot and sometimes she ignores him and washes herself but honestly he is persistant. 'Give a girl a break!' comes to mind [emoji38] I don't really think it's that though but I could be wrong.

I think it's over a treat I gave them. I always give Mischief his first as he seems to be the dominant rabbit (at the moment anyway) and he does get very pushy and so does he and then he gets panicky thinking I fed her first etc. I am wondering if I need to keep treats to certain times of day and a ritual with treat giving so they know when treat time is, that Mischief has his first and then Lillabelle. Is there any good tips about treat giving to make sure there are no arguments?

I was sitting on the bed and gave Mischief his treat as he was begging then got up and went over to Lillabelle and gave her one. Then I sat back on the bed and saw Mischief begging again. Lillabelle was behind him. I was just watching the end of a film and literally moments later I saw them in a circle chasing each others tails very fast. It looked like a tornado but I have never witnessed one before. Looking online on Youtube was on half successful as the tornados were either stopped by a broom or in groups of 3 or more rabbits but they looked the same.

Then Lillabelle ran into the puppy pen and Mischief chased her and was trying to nip her. I cornered Mischief and she ran away but came back and Mischief lunged at her again and almost went to bite me but stopped. Then my OH caught Lillabelle. It definitely looked frenzied.

I think maybe the giving of treats needs to be more obvious in a clear space where they both sit waiting and can see me. I think the argument may have started because Mischief thought I gave Lillabelle an extra treat maybe or that Lillabelle was trying to come up behind him to get a treat and he tried to stop her. That's how it seemed but I didn't see them actually start the tornado as had my eye off them. It was only a few seconds after I saw Mischief begging again though.

We haven't really expanded their area today but Lillabelle keeps getting into the hallway the last few days. We put them in the puppy pen in the bedroom last Monday and 2 hours later they had the whole bedroom. The last few days we have constantly had to find Lillabelle and put her in the bedroom again as she has escaped.

Should we have left them in the puppy pen longer when we moved it from the lounge to the bedroom? 2 hours could have been too short perhaps? We can keep them to the puppy pen for longer if that would help? We can also let them out seperately for a run as they don't like being in there. Or we could let them into the bedroom for an hour together to start with and increase their time out together over time?

We have no way of increasing the space other than a full bedroom with the door shut after that. Unless we invest in another puppy pen to extend it which we don't really want to do unless absolutely necessary. There is hardly any space to extend it now. 8 panels is taking up all the space.

We could drop it down to 6 panels and then increase it to 8 and then let them into the bedroom. If really needed we have an XL dog crate we could add on to extend space however it was Mischief's old cage as a baby so it may cause more problems.

Please feel free to give advice. I've read up on how to bond loads but not seen anything that explains if there are problems really. Any info would be great. Does this happen often? Does it mean they could have problems bonding now? I really hope it's not back to square one with me sleeping in the lounge again. It was starting to affect my mental health and pain so I don't think I could face that again so soon [emoji22]

They were getting on so well. Only half hour earlier Lillabelle was grooming his ear and then he groomed her back. And they lay down nose to nose so content.

They are very 'excitable' when food and treats are about. Maybe I need to make sure it is a calm and controlled environment when I give them treats and watch them around food closely then especially treats, veggies and pellets times.

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I would establish a routine for treats definitely. Same time of day, same place etc.

We have a specific noise for treats for each of them. They do both turn up, and push etc but the Rodney first works well and then I show them both an empty hand in the same order.

It's unfortunately working out what works for them, for instance we know we can't give treats on the sofa as it triggers Blossom peeing on it to try and claim the treat territory. Took us weeks of vinegar scrubbing and having a loo on the sofa to work that one out [emoji1787]

With a set back I would normally go back at least one step in the process, so whichever you did last go back to that and see how they are. If they're fine then do that step for much longer than you did initially.

If going back a step doesn't work they may need a break, there are others with far more experience than me here but I would keep going back steps til you get a feel for where they are.

They might not have sorted their hierarchy out yet, so some fur pulling etc is normal but I don't think a tornado is. Blossom and Rodney had a mini tornado at the very beginning where he got nipped and after a longish reset period and rethink of neutral area and a very long January they have now very happy together.

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CarelessSquid07 said:
I would establish a routine for treats definitely. Same time of day, same place etc.

We have a specific noise for treats for each of them. They do both turn up, and push etc but the Rodney first works well and then I show them both an empty hand in the same order.

It's unfortunately working out what works for them, for instance we know we can't give treats on the sofa as it triggers Blossom peeing on it to try and claim the treat territory. Took us weeks of vinegar scrubbing and having a loo on the sofa to work that one out [emoji1787]

With a set back I would normally go back at least one step in the process, so whichever you did last go back to that and see how they are. If they're fine then do that step for much longer than you did initially.

If going back a step doesn't work they may need a break, there are others with far more experience than me here but I would keep going back steps til you get a feel for where they are.

They might not have sorted their hierarchy out yet, so some fur pulling etc is normal but I don't think a tornado is. Blossom and Rodney had a mini tornado at the very beginning where he got nipped and after a longish reset period and rethink of neutral area and a very long January they have now very happy together.

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Click to expand...
Oh I know what it is like to have a rabbit peeing and clearing it up. My bridge bunny Bonnie had problems near the end bless her. I sympathise with you over the scrubbing sofas down.

I think theirs was a mini tornado. I started to break it off by standing up right by them and that is when Lillabelle ran off. I don't think either of them got nipped. I didn't think of that! I know it seems like the most important thing to do but it all happened quickly and we didn't know what to do. Plus my OH started as typically it happened late at night and he has work in morning. So we ended up in an argument aswell with the stress! [emoji38] I will have to check them over to be sure they were not nipped.

They have not done any chasing or fur pulling up to this point. Maybe they kind of slotted into the bonding without sorting out their hierarchy as you say. Not that I want fur pulling as such but how can they decide who is boss if neither pushes the point?

I see Mischief as the dominant one as he is oldest and biggest at the moment. However I realise this could change as she definitely very strong willed as she could decide later on she wants to be the boss. We shall see. However, for now, I am saying Mischief is boss due to age and size but also that he asks for grooms more and she grooms him. Sometimes she asks to be groomed but it is rarely reciprocated.

I will put them into a 6 panel puppy pen based in our bedroom in the morning so I can check they are ok and then increase it to an 8 panel. How long before I can increase it to an 8 panel bearing in mind they are giant bunnies and will soon get fed up with 6 panels. Also as Lillabelle is young she needs to have a run about.

Does letting them out for a while together to start with help at all? I realise I am asking 'how long is a ball of string?' however some guidance would really help. Perhaps if some of you said how you bonded yours? Then I would have some idea how long to do each stage for. I wonder if I've rushed it and it would be a shame to have to seperate them when they have been so good together up to tonight.

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It is great that Rodney and Blossom are happy together [emoji4] Well done bunnies and you!

I didn't realise how involved and stressful bonding buns was when we got Lillabelle. I kind of rushed to get her for Mischief's sake. I don't regret it as he us so happy when with her and Lillabelle is part of the family now however this is not the best time for us. My health has been awful since December. If I had known how much work is involved we would have waited until I am well perhaps. But then we could wait a lifetime. In the meantime Mischief needed a friend. So it is what it is.

Hopefully it is just a glitch. Fingers and toes crossed!

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İ have no knowledge about this. But I know Lillabelle hasn't been sterlization yet. I've read that bonding between rabbits isn't entirely complete unless they have had sterilization surgery. But maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Also bunnies are always excited for treats. :D Cookie gets so excited about treats and even drugs every time that sometimes I worry he'll choke, Allah bless. He even hides the treat from me when I give a treat to Cookie sometimes. This treat issue seems to be more important than we think . :D
 
Sending vibes you will figure things out. Treats are not essential-bunnies disagree-so perhaps stop giving atm.
 
bunny momma said:
Sending vibes you will figure things out. Treats are not essential-bunnies disagree-so perhaps stop giving atm.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. I would stop giving them until their bond is established. Was this episode also just after you had moved them to a different room in the same pen? That could have triggered things.
 
CarelessSquid07 said:
I would establish a routine for treats definitely. Same time of day, same place etc.

We have a specific noise for treats for each of them. They do both turn up, and push etc but the Rodney first works well and then I show them both an empty hand in the same order.

It's unfortunately working out what works for them, for instance we know we can't give treats on the sofa as it triggers Blossom peeing on it to try and claim the treat territory. Took us weeks of vinegar scrubbing and having a loo on the sofa to work that one out [emoji1787]

With a set back I would normally go back at least one step in the process, so whichever you did last go back to that and see how they are. If they're fine then do that step for much longer than you did initially.

If going back a step doesn't work they may need a break, there are others with far more experience than me here but I would keep going back steps til you get a feel for where they are.

They might not have sorted their hierarchy out yet, so some fur pulling etc is normal but I don't think a tornado is. Blossom and Rodney had a mini tornado at the very beginning where he got nipped and after a longish reset period and rethink of neutral area and a very long January they have now very happy together.

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Click to expand...

I agree with this, especially establishing a routine for treats (or stop them until they are more settled?). Going back one step in the process is also good advice.

I was also going to add about hormones kicking in now - see Jane's post.
 
I'm not sure I could describe the process to be honest I had a lot of sleep deprivation during that period! Although thinking back I never had to intervene after the first 48 hours so it was more for my worry than for them.

I had a bonding thread, it is long I'm afraid but it would describe things in detail. My two are very dinky though so although they were frustrated with space they did tolerate it.

Hope the link works.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=69462&share_type=t&link_source=app

Bonding Take Two Fingers Crossed

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It was actually a few days after they were let out to free roam in the bedroom. Lillabelle keeps escaping out the bedroom though. Mischief hardly goes out the bedroom even though we give him free rein.

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Omi said:
I agree with this, especially establishing a routine for treats (or stop them until they are more settled?). Going back one step in the process is also good advice.

I was also going to add about hormones kicking in now - see Jane's post.
Click to expand...
I will stop treats and take them back to panel pen in bedroom to see hoe they get on. And will remove treats.

I am nervous of putting them back together when on my own now. I am not very quick due to disabilities and they are. I also have a bad eye infection and am almost blind in one eye. All this makes me very doddery at the moment. My OH comes home at 4 and we have a bank holiday weekend to try it again. Will it hurt to leave it that long do you think? I'm worried they need to be put back together asap!

If it doesn't work this time will I have to wait until 6 weeks after she is spayed? This is a long wait. I don't feel happy getting her spayed until she is 6 months old really. So we are looking at 12 weeks at least. That is going to be a long 12 weeks for them and us [emoji20]

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I read this thank you.

We had none of the sitting apart and lunging each other. They just got together and it was like they had been bonded for ages.

Perhaps as there were no arguments about hierarchy they did not define who is boss properly.

We shall see when we put them back together. I'm not sure whether to wait until my OH is home or give it a try myself.

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twistedtiggerz69 said:
I read this thank you.

We had none of the sitting apart and lunging each other. They just got together and it was like they had been bonded for ages.

Perhaps as there were no arguments about hierarchy they did not define who is boss properly.

We shall see when we put them back together. I'm not sure whether to wait until my OH is home or give it a try myself.

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Click to expand...

I'd wait til your OH is home, had a chance to chill out...maybe even tomorrow. I wouldn't risk doing it yourself, you don't need the stress or having them go for each other & it risking your confidence further
 
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