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Sawdust
- Thread starter clarebear
- Start date
happysaz133
Wise Old Thumper
Had to! :lol:
William
Wise Old Thumper
Immature :roll:
Just goggle it. Heres one of the first thing that comes up: http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/guineapigs/a/woodshavings.htm
I can't believe you guys didn't know this. Any of the knowledgeable people on here can tell you the same thing.
Just goggle it. Heres one of the first thing that comes up: http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/guineapigs/a/woodshavings.htm
I can't believe you guys didn't know this. Any of the knowledgeable people on here can tell you the same thing.
BattleKat
Wise Old Thumper
bearing in mind, I actually agree with you that I would avoid shavings (the type we get in the UK!!!) you didn't choose a great link to support your point....
Cedar and pine became popular for pet bedding material because they are good at controlling odor and have some natural insecticidal properties (they kill or repel bugs, especially cedar). These softwood shavings smell nice due to the volatile compounds (e.g. aromatic hydrocarbons, phenols) that are given off. Unfortunately these compounds have been implicated as a potential health risk, especially with regards to respiratory problems (asthma, inflammation, allergic responses) and changes in the liver.
Many of the studies on wood toxicity have actually been conducted on humans, who are exposed to these woods and their by products in the wood product industry (such as those who work in lumber mills who are exposed to lots of wood dust), and these studies often compare the incidence of disease in workers in the wood product industry compared to other workers or the average population. Obviously, this is a much different type of exposure compared to our pets.
Studies of laboratory animals have shown fairly dramatic changes in liver enzymes on animals housed on cedar bedding. This in turn can effect the metabolism of drugs including anesthetics, but there is not much information on a direct link between these changes and disease or clinical symptoms. The changes in liver enzymes can be problematic for research animals, but the impact on pets hasn't really be studied, as far as I can tell.
Bottom Line
Based on the studies that implicate the compounds from cedar in allergic and respiratory diseases as well as the impact on liver enzymes, it seems it may well be prudent to avoid cedar shavings as bedding or litter, especially since alternatives are available.
With pine shavings, the problem isn't as clear cut. Pine shavings emit similar volatile compounds as cedar, but the risks aren't clear. It is thought that heat treating pine shavings may reduce the levels of aromatic hydrocarbons that have been implicated as a potential concern, so that products such as kiln dried pine are safe (many pet products are heat treated).
Since the information about the problems is circumstantial and hasn't been evaluated in the context of health problems in exotic pets, I'm hesitant to make firm recommendations. That said, it has been my personal choice to avoid cedar; I have used pine in the past, though recently I have been trying out many of the alternatives available on the market instead.
I think you might also find that when happysaz said you were generalising and what may affect one animal may not affect another she was actually referring to you talking about the effects on hamsters when the discussions on here are concerned with rabbits, to which you replied with another point about hamsters. I could be wrong though.
William
Wise Old Thumper
I barely glanced at it, I don't care enough to waste my time finding a good link for them when they will just ignore my advice. Apparently happy has some sort of vendetta against me because I live in the US :roll:
It is said that kiln dried might be safe. There are better alternatives though.
ETA: no, the generalization thing is apparently referring to how I once said that she and a few others were generalizing the US.
happysaz133
Wise Old Thumper
I do know about certain types of shavings being dangerous, however most of the ones here are not. They are also dust extracted so minimise breathing problems in small animals.
There is nothing wrong with using these and I will continue to do so. I personally wouldn't bed hamsters on anything else.
There is nothing wrong with using these and I will continue to do so. I personally wouldn't bed hamsters on anything else.
happysaz133
Wise Old Thumper
Seriously? :lol: I have nothing against the US and wish to live there. I have many many friends there.
Trust me, I have nothing against you for living in the US.
BattleKat
Wise Old Thumper
You can't be bothered to find a good link but you care enough to waste time arguing about it in this thread...:? seems counter productive to me.
I'm not disagreeing there are better alternatives. I started that last post with saying I would avoid shavings.
William
Wise Old Thumper
Then what are you always attacking me for Ever since the arguments about the US like 2 months ago? A couple days ago you brought up America in a thread that had nothing to do with it and I never mentioned America either. Now again. When I wasnt trying to offend anyone or anything.. And if I remember correctly you were against the US in those threads.
No, because there just isn't any point. They won't listen and if they wanted to learn they could type "pine shavings" into goggle themselves.
No, because there just isn't any point. They won't listen and if they wanted to learn they could type "pine shavings" into goggle themselves.
Cool great single malt names. :wave:
happysaz133
Wise Old Thumper
Did I say that anywhere? :roll: :roll: :roll: Although least you asked this time and didn't assume.
And at the end of the day, what I choose to bed my hamsters on is my business, they are not your animals nor are they in anyway unhealthy. There is not an awful lot of options for bedding my hamsters on, and shavings are easy and hygenic to me.
happysaz133
Wise Old Thumper
I have already 'goggled' about shavings many times, and have come to the conclusion the risk is not high enough to me to change my hamsters bedding.
I absolutely love America...think what you wish
William
Wise Old Thumper
Whatever. Your choice. There are many options though and just because it won't hurt your current hamsters (or doesn't seem to) doesn't mean it won't hurt any future hamsters. Before I knew (when I was 12) I housed mine on pine and I had a hamster and mouse get itchy and my mouse got bald patches.
happysaz133
Wise Old Thumper
There are many options in the UK but not neccessarily where I live without a rediculous delivery charge.
As I said, I'm not willing to change it. As the old saying goes If it ain't broke dont fix it.
I'll be the bigger person and not comment on this thread again. I have better things to so with my time than argue about wood shavings. :lol: Call me abusive, neglectful and stupid if you so wish.
As I said, I'm not willing to change it. As the old saying goes If it ain't broke dont fix it.
I'll be the bigger person and not comment on this thread again. I have better things to so with my time than argue about wood shavings. :lol: Call me abusive, neglectful and stupid if you so wish.
BattleKat
Wise Old Thumper
I really really don't want to come across as if I'm arguing for the sake of it here :lol: but I just wanted to mention this in case you weren't aware and it might come in useful in the future
Mice in groups can sometimes be barbered by another mouse leaving hairless patches and scratch a lot due to the stress of being picked on, and lone mice can start to obsessively scratch and groom themselves leading to bald patches and sores (a very common problem in american mice, not so much in european mice). so that may not have been due to the shavings.
I really don't know enough about hamsters to comment. I've only had one - who was housed on wood shavings when I was a kid (and was healthy for her very long life span).
I'm sure happysaz would try a different substrate if she encountered problems in the future, so try not to worry about it.
Perhaps if you're concerned you could start a thread informing people of the potential dangers and alternatives to pine/cedar shavings?
William
Wise Old Thumper
It wouldn't have to be expensive though. You can shred newspaper, toilet paper, and paper towels. You could use sand on the bottom (obviously with bedding too). You could do something like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/29840567@N03/5431232627/
Megazorb, carefresh, paper based cat litters are all fairly cheap. Probably barely more than shavings.
I use a mix of aspen, shredded newspaper, toilet paper, paper towel, sand, and sometimes carefresh. Nearly free.
Battlekat: No, he was a male, so I housed him separately. When I switched to carefresh he was fine.
What would be the point in starting a thread about it. People would just get all upset again like with this.
Megazorb, carefresh, paper based cat litters are all fairly cheap. Probably barely more than shavings.
I use a mix of aspen, shredded newspaper, toilet paper, paper towel, sand, and sometimes carefresh. Nearly free.
Battlekat: No, he was a male, so I housed him separately. When I switched to carefresh he was fine.
What would be the point in starting a thread about it. People would just get all upset again like with this.
I think it is the owners decision at the end of the day, to weigh up the pros and cons.
I personally think that, although the evidence is not conclusive, it is not worth the risk with my bunny's health, and so do not use them for his trays.
I do however use shavings for my hamster. I am still debating whether its worth changing or not, as I actually think megazorb is a bit dustier. There is no way I'd use newspaper or shredded paper, hamsters are so tiny if the ink was the wrong type it would affect her more than a rabbit. The reason I have not changed her over is because I believe the risk to her is smaller, as it is dust extracted and she doesnt wee on it (she has a litter box with special litter).
I think whether they are dangerous or not largely depends on how you use them.
I personally think that, although the evidence is not conclusive, it is not worth the risk with my bunny's health, and so do not use them for his trays.
I do however use shavings for my hamster. I am still debating whether its worth changing or not, as I actually think megazorb is a bit dustier. There is no way I'd use newspaper or shredded paper, hamsters are so tiny if the ink was the wrong type it would affect her more than a rabbit. The reason I have not changed her over is because I believe the risk to her is smaller, as it is dust extracted and she doesnt wee on it (she has a litter box with special litter).
I think whether they are dangerous or not largely depends on how you use them.
William
Wise Old Thumper
its worth the risk with your hamster's health, but not your rabbit's health?
newspaper ink in the US and UK is made of veggie oil. It's a law in case kids get it and stick it in their mouth or something.
Not to be argumentative, but wouldn't you think that it would be more dangerous for the hamster since the shavings will be contained in a cage for the hamster and the hamster walks and burrows all through it? Whereas it would just be in a litter pan for a rabbit.
There really is conclusive proof. Dangerous toxic phenols, what more do you need to know?
I think this is another one of those things where its different in the US. People get completely flamed for this kind of thing on US forums.
Oh thats nice of you.
If the risks were the same I would not use it. She actually probably means a little more to me than my rabbit, as I have had her 3 times as long. The problems as I understand it are:
1) dust, but she has dust extracted shavings which are less dusty than megazorb
2) phenols released when weed on/wet, but she doesnt wee on them, and they dont get wet
Oh and I use a very thin layer, just enough to cover the bottom, so she doesnt burrow through it.
She is in a barred cage (good ventilation), yes but she has another 2 levels, tubes and a bed where she can get away from shavings if she wanted.
