Rabbit Liver Levels High. [Please help!]

[TheCallyBear]

Ok so firstly I'm sorry if I'm confusing. I'm going to try keep this as short as possible without missing anything out.

Some of you may remember this thread;;
http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?398546-In-bits-don-t-know-what-to-do-with-myself
If you don't I'll try summarize. There also may be slight differences in what I said there to here, you have to bare with me I struggle to process information and commonly get mixed up. I've written all of the correct information down in a file on my laptop after getting it from my vets.

My rabbit Eric had dropped weight drastically over the course of about 4 weeks, so I took him to Ashleigh Vets which is highly recommended on here. Eric had dropped from 3kg to 1.9kg. They told me he was fine and I "just needed to feed him more." I was already feeding him more and he continued to lose weight. Since they're so highly regarded, I stuck with what they said for a further 2-3 weeks until enough was enough. By this time Eric had dropped to 1.5kg even though I was feeding him astronomical amounts.

I then took Eric to Heywood Vets who I still use. They said that Eric was emaciated [so not fine like Ashleigh Vets said] and that he needed a dental asap. He did have a spur on his tooth but nothing that would suggest such drastic weight loss, and especially since he hadn't stopped eating. This is a very important point. Eric also stopped breathing whilst under anesthetic and it was really touch and go whether or not he'd make it. After a very anxious wait he finally came around from the anesthetic. I did ask for a blood test since everyone here was suggesting it, and since they said that the tooth spur was not enough to cause the weight loss but I was told that it wasn't recommended.

I eventually managed to get Erics weight back up to 2.9kg but only if I was feeding him way too much. The only way I managed to keep his weight up and maintain it was to feed 3 full bowl fulls of pellets a day, oats which are recommended to feed to older rabbits to maintain weight along with veg and hay provided. Not that he'd eat the hay, but that's no surprise with feeding him 3 bowl fulls of pellets a day really. :/ I did manage to get him to nibble on hay for a while but I'd had to slowly stop the pellets in order for that to happen and surprise surprise his weight dropped. Eventually I slowly managed to drop the pellets to one bowl a day, but i still had to feed an unusual amount of veg [4 large spring green leaves a day, generally along with either a handful or spinach or kale or some broccoli or a small bit of carrot] along with the oats. Otherwise he'd drop weight.

About a week ago now Erics weight started dropping drastically, and in a week his weight has dropped from 2.9kg to 1.8kg. I am having to feed again the astronomical amount to keep him stabilized per recommendation of the vets. As soon as I noticed the weight dropping I booked him in at the vets where I demanded blood tests, and much to my relief the vet agreed. [This lady was much more thorough than the others] We are still waiting on the E Cunniculi [sp?] results but his wellness blood test results have showed that his liver has slightly high levels compared to normal levels. Heywood Vets have been 100% honest with me and said that they haven't dealt with this before so what they have done is send his results off to multiple rabbit experts so that they can share their opinions on the whole ordeal. We will hear back from them within a week, hopefully. She suspects an infection or a possible inability to work?

My vet has also recommended checking his teeth under anesthetic but using gas to put him under rather than an injection, so his liver won't have to cope with the strain of an injection. I should also mention that Erics poos throughout this whole ordeal have been small, dark, and hard. His partners are big golden and crumbly, and there are lots of them. Eric passes very few compared, it certainly seems as though there is less output than input. He expresses no signs of being in pain and there have been no changes in behavior. He has gone from being a pristine clean rabbit to being urine stained all over his legs despite me cleaning them out every day. He is litter trained.

I wondered if any of you had been through similar and could offer any advise? My vets seem to be doing everything within their power to make sure we get this under control as soon as possible. Thank you in advance. Please feel free to ask any questions if I've missed anything out.

[EDIT;; just to say that Eric also drinks a hell of a lot more than he used to, also.]

 

[silverrabbit]

I'm so sorry you're having such a tough time with Eric

I don't have much experience with these issues, only to say that my boy Freckle had slightly raised levels on his liver test but this was due to the stress he was under at the time of obtaining the blood sample.

Obviously Eric has a lot more going on with the weight loss did the vet mention anything about kidneys? Weight loss can be a symptom of renal disease

Hope you and Eric get some answers soon xx

 

[TheCallyBear]

I'm so sorry you're having such a tough time with Eric

I don't have much experience with these issues, only to say that my boy Freckle had slightly raised levels on his liver test but this was due to the stress he was under at the time of obtaining the blood sample.

Obviously Eric has a lot more going on with the weight loss did the vet mention anything about kidneys? Weight loss can be a symptom of renal disease

Hope you and Eric get some answers soon xx

I expressed that I really thought it was something to do with his kidneys, since he also drinks an unusual amount [going to edit this post and add this in, i forgot!] but they checked those too. They checked everything on the wellness blood panel. :c It's baffling! thanks so much for the thoughts. x

 

[Jbun]

Maybe I missed it, but was a fecal test ever done to check for parasites? Or were xrays ever taken?

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/weightloss.shtml

 

[Bunny Buddy]

I had a similar experience with Shadow, a lot of his history is scarily similar:

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...D11-Results-liver-P21-NOT-EC-Final-update-P40

It's a bit of a long read for something that could be totally unrealted but the short version is Shadow (found out only on postmortem about 14 months later) had a congenital deformity with his liver meaning that he wasn't getting the appropriate nutrition from his food. We did manage to keep him stable for some periods of time but it was always a struggle. Sadly he died under GA as we didn't know what was wrong with him and there's no way he'd have been given a GA in that way if we had known.

Have you had Eric long? I'd only had Shadow 14 weeks when his illness was apparent and I do wonder if having him neutered had been too much for him to cope with.

Edit to add: Shadow also drank huge amounts since the first day he was with me.

Further edit: I just had a quick read of your previous thread about Eric possibly being a dental bun. Shadow had awful teeth, he couldn't eat hay due to his poor teeth. I actually lost him to the GA when he was having his incisors extracted (he just didn't wake up). We realised after his PM that his teeth were awful because of his inability to gain nutrition from his food.

If you think there might be a connection and your local vets would want to refer to a specialist Shadow's vet was Frances Harcourt-Brown, THE rabbit specialist, based in Harrogate but you wouldn't necessarily need to go to Harrogate as she would be able to advise your vet.

 

[TheCallyBear]

Maybe I missed it, but was a fecal test ever done to check for parasites? Or were xrays ever taken?

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/weightloss.shtml

Hey there! No worries at all, uh, no I don't think so not that I know of anyway. The vet did suggest x rays if the bloods didn't turn up anything, but we haven't done them either. Do you know how I'd go about getting a fecal test done?

I had a similar experience with Shadow, a lot of his history is scarily similar:

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/s...D11-Results-liver-P21-NOT-EC-Final-update-P40

It's a bit of a long read for something that could be totally unrealted but the short version is Shadow (found out only on postmortem about 14 months later) had a congenital deformity with his liver meaning that he wasn't getting the appropriate nutrition from his food. We did manage to keep him stable for some periods of time but it was always a struggle. Sadly he died under GA as we didn't know what was wrong with him and there's no way he'd have been given a GA in that way if we had known.

Have you had Eric long? I'd only had Shadow 14 weeks when his illness was apparent and I do wonder if having him neutered had been too much for him to cope with.

Edit to add: Shadow also drank huge amounts since the first day he was with me.

Further edit: I just had a quick read of your previous thread about Eric possibly being a dental bun. Shadow had awful teeth, he couldn't eat hay due to his poor teeth. I actually lost him to the GA when he was having his incisors extracted (he just didn't wake up). We realised after his PM that his teeth were awful because of his inability to gain nutrition from his food.

Hi there! :wave: I've had Eric for...oh my goodness I always get this wrong. 3 Years in August. His first partner died just before he was two, we got him a second partner pretty soon after since he was so lonely and she died 3 weeks later too. The issues presented themselves around a month after his second partner died. We have no idea what either died from, which would probably help in hindsight since they could possibly be connected. :c His second partner was bought from petsathome. [please don't shoot me, I didn't know any better at the time! :c] I'll definitely give it a read. Just to say though, Erics teeth aren't actually that bad. The thread "possibly got a dental bun" was after I'd visited Ashleigh Vets. Heywood Vets checked his mouth out further and said they were wrong, and that his teeth didn't look that bad. After putting him under anesthetic they only found one spur and that was rectified, but even then they said it wasn't as bad as his problems were suggesting.

 

[Jbun]

Having a fecal test done should be a pretty routine thing for any vet. You should just be able to phone them and bring in a sample for them to test.

 

[TheCallyBear]

Having a fecal test done should be a pretty routine thing for any vet. You should just be able to phone them and bring in a sample for them to test.

Thank you so much, sorry I didn't know! I'll mention it when she rings me with the next set of results. Thank you. :'D

 

[Jbun]

Not a problem Actually I'm a bit surprised it hadn't already been done. I would expect it to be one of the first tests done for sudden weight loss issues.

 

[halfpenny]

High liver level can be due to muscle break down due to weight loss.
Our Noodle became very thin- she had a uterine tumour when neutered so I was worried it had spread, she was 7 when done.
The vets x -rayed, blood tested and scanned her and could find nothing, her teeth were fine and there was no sign of tumours elsewhere.
We gave her a 6 weeks course of panacur and Metacam, she improved dramatically.
I would certainly run all tests and discuss with the vet before starting any treatment.

 

[TheCallyBear]

High liver level can be due to muscle break down due to weight loss.
Our Noodle became very thin- she had a uterine tumour when neutered so I was worried it had spread, she was 7 when done.
The vets x -rayed, blood tested and scanned her and could find nothing, her teeth were fine and there was no sign of tumours elsewhere.
We gave her a 6 weeks course of panacur and Metacam, she improved dramatically.
I would certainly run all tests and discuss with the vet before starting any treatment.

Without sounding rude, I honestly don't know what you're suggesting when you posted this.
please don't take that badly, it's probably my fault. I do understand your first sentence though! that's good to know, thank you.
With the other things, I think I'll ask for them to do x rays whilst he's under when they check his teeth. Do you think that's a good idea? c:

Not a problem Actually I'm a bit surprised it hadn't already been done. I would expect it to be one of the first tests done for sudden weight loss issues.

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. As I said i'll mention it, and i'll keep you posted too!

 

[halfpenny]

Sorry, dealing with a lot here at the moment so not writing coherently.

Noodle was similar, in that she was ( and still does urinate and drink a lot), she eats well and is bright as a button. I would wait for the titre test to check for E.c, it looks like everything else is covered. I do have a rabbit whose globulins were the only unusual thing in his bloods, when he was losing weight, this indicated a chronic infection or possibly something more sinister. We treated for infection and he is doing well now ( he is 8 )

The only other thing to remember is that about 70% of the kidney function has to have failed before it shows up in bloods, so you can have symptoms before the bloods show it.
If he is drinking and urinating lot, try and get a urine sample too for analysis.

Not much help I know, but it's best to get all results back before making any decisions.

 

[TheCallyBear]

Sorry, dealing with a lot here at the moment so not writing coherently.

Noodle was similar, in that she was ( and still does urinate and drink a lot), she eats well and is bright as a button. I would wait for the titre test to check for E.c, it looks like everything else is covered. I do have a rabbit whose globulins were the only unusual thing in his bloods, when he was losing weight, this indicated a chronic infection or possibly something more sinister. We treated for infection and he is doing well now ( he is 8 )

The only other thing to remember is that about 70% of the kidney function has to have failed before it shows up in bloods, so you can have symptoms before the bloods show it.
If he is drinking and urinating lot, try and get a urine sample too for analysis.

Not much help I know, but it's best to get all results back before making any decisions.

No no please don't apologize, it's fine!!

Thank you so much for your advice, I'll definitely mention it to my vet. c:

 

[nessar]

My Barney had similar symptoms (but a slower progression in the illness) - he had weightloss whilst eating loads of high-calorie food, occasional incontinence (lasted for a couple of weeks at a time), and symptoms of needing a dental when the spurs were tiny. He has always drunk very large amounts (up to 2 litres a day at one point, but usually 600ml-1litre).

It turned out he has a gut problem. Now I must stress that his case must be fairly rare as he stumped 3 vets before I found one that was really good with rabbits, and even she hadn't seen the exact same thing before. To put it simply, his gut wasn't absorbing the nutrients he was eating. His gut and stomach were very inflamed and gassy and his stomach was very enlarged. His bladder was tiny for some reason. His liver ennzyme levels were a bit high, due to his body breaking down his muscles. He was also anemic. Even though he was eating loads, he was starving to death.

Lowering the pellets which made him eat more hay (the opposite of what you would do logically do, I know) meant that his gut got healthier. He also had (and will be on for life) gut stimulants twice a day and he was on daily painkillers for a long time. I have to be very careful with his diet as problems don't show up straight away, it is gradual weight loss or loss of appetite.

I'm not saying that this is what your bun has, but I would urge you to go to the best rabbit specialist you can find and get them to do all the tests they can. Barney's problem was diagnosed with blood tests, a 40 minute ultrasound and an xray, as well as full examination and dental work under GA. The tests were done under sedation and then they tranced him so I'd discuss this with your vet, as your bun had problems last time.

I would also speak to your vet about adequate pain relief and maybe gut stimulants in the meantime, in the hopes that his hay eating will pick up. Some probiotics like the Protexin products may help too.

I hope you can get some tests done and find out what is wrong with your bunny. I know how frustrating it can be.

 

[nessar]

Just to add to this, I just looked it up on google maps and you are about an hour and a half from harrogate, which I believe is where Frances Harcourt Brown is. She actually wrote THE book on rabbit medicine, and recently she wrote an updated one. It is the book other vets use. So it would be well worth thinking about getting a referral.

 

[p_prod_uk]

Just to add to this, I just looked it up on google maps and you are about an hour and a half from harrogate, which I believe is where Frances Harcourt Brown is. She actually wrote THE book on rabbit medicine, and recently she wrote an updated one. It is the book other vets use. So it would be well worth thinking about getting a referral.

I don't think FHB practices much these days due to ill health.

I had pretty much identical issues in 3 of my buns before Xmas, all within weeks of each other. They all had fecal tests, blood tests and liver ultrasounds. 2 buns went on to just recover 'naturally', the other died from auto immune disease

I hope you get to the bottom of it but I would suggest sorting fecal tests ASAP and would think about trying to find a more rabbit savvy vet in your area if possible.
I got referred to Battle Flatt vets in Stamford Bridge and they were v good. I think I started a thread on there bout my issues if you wanted to search for it.

Good luck

 

[Bunny Buddy]

I don't think FHB practices much these days due to ill health.

She only does consultations on Tuesdays and Thursdays and surgery on Wednesdays but she is still doing consultations/taking referrals, performing surgery routinely, albiet not working as many hours as she did before she started winding down towards retirement.

 

[TheCallyBear]

Hi guys! Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I'm really ill at the moment, and the stress of poor Eric being I'll is making me worse. I have read all of what you've said, and I've taken everything on board. I'm so exhausted that I am not really well enough to reply individually but I wanted to just thank you all truly and to update you.

I have decided that I am going to get a fecal sample done and if that's clear, then I'm going to get a referral to Frances Harcourt-Brown. My vet thinks this is a great idea too, and is more than happy to cooperate.

On the other side of this, I think I can kiss goodbye to my Christmas money. The things we do!! :lol:

 

[TheCallyBear]

Oh, also forgot to say that the E Cunniculi (sp??) came back clear.

 

[nessar]

Glad that the EC test came back clear.

What are you testing for with fecal tests?