New mum needs some advice!!!

[Griff]

Hi all :wave:

I'm new to the forum. I have had my two baby mini lops, jake and Elwood, since September. Me and my husband love them to bits. We have never had any pets, and we have no children. These two are my babies. They are brothers who were born and raised together by a very experienced breeder (they are pure bred). We got them at 11 weeks old. They are now 5 and a half months.
They were both neutered at about 15 weeks as jake (the dominant one) was starting to try to jump on Elwood and was spraying.
They get along brilliant. They eat together, sleep together, cuddle and groom together. They are very close and bonded to me and they are loving. They play together in their run and are always happy and binkying.
Jake has always been a bit bigger in frame. He is the boss although it is not always obvious. He likes to eat more and he is quite loyal and watches out and on guard. Elwood is smaller and is very placid. He will enjoy a stroke by anyone. He is quite cheeky however and I expect sometimes is like an annoying little brother!!

My problem is that 3 weeks ago all of a sudden they had a scrap in their run. They were rolling around together and fur was flying. However there were no scratches, bites or blood. They then stayed away for a little while but were cuddling again later. I thought this was food related and also Elwood had been getting quite dominant and I think jake was telling him who's boss.
Then this morning I got up and there was fur everywhere again and clearly there had been another scrap. Again, Elwood was a bit shook up and was staying away from jake. But no sign of any harm to either. All the fur is from underneath so outwardly no signs of any damage. Within an hour they are back cuddled together.

Has anyone else experienced this? Is it still them as they are young trying to find their position in hierarchy (even though they are both neutered). Will it settle down as they get older. I honestly don't think they will hurt each other but I can't understand what happens to start it and why it happens.

Sorry it's a long post guys but as I'm new I wanted to give detail

 

[tonibun]

Sorry to hear your bunnies have had a fall-out. Can you answer these questions for us please?


Do they live indoors/outside
Have you changed anything in their environment such as a new hutch, litter tray etc
Are there any other animals which might have upset them
Are they both healthy

It could be that they are getting older now ie growing up and this can sometimes alter the relationship.

 

[Griff]

Hi
They live outdoors and always have. They have a big hutch. 6ft double and 6 ft run. They love being outdoors in their run and playing. In fact if weather is bad you can tell they want to be outside.
Nothing new at all. They have always had the same things. I have noticed the last week one or both of them are moving their litter tray and food bowl around more.
Nothing has upset them. No other animals.
Both very healthy. Both eat plenty, especially hay. I keep an eye on toilet every day. They are normal poo and wee etc.

Only thing that sometimes happens is Elwood seems to want my attention a lot. He digs at my feet and chews my trousers. This started about 4 weeks ago. But I try to give them both the same amount of attention. But Elwood (the submissive one) is quite attention seeking and sometimes I think Jake finds it annoying. They both eat together and have treats together etc. They both love eating treats out of my hand and again I always give them the same amount and attention.

 

[tonibun]

That all sounds fine, maybe Elwood is trying to tell you something? I think you will just have to plod on but obviously if they keep on falling out you will have to separate them, as it won't be fair on the submissive one, Elwood, unfortunately. Are you sure you don't get a cat or fox coming in?

 

[Griff]

It's possible. We have a cat 2 doors away but I never see him in our garden. Also we have a lot of fencing and mesh and are well protected. They were bred by someone who has rabbits, Guinea pigs, hens and a cat. She also has 5 kids. So noise, people, bangs, even fireworks don't seem to bother them. They aren't timid.
Thanks for the comment though as I will keep an eye out. We do have foxes around the area sometimes but again never directly seen them close to our house.
I'm really hoping it's a growing up thing �� They are so close all the time and have spent every minute together since birth. They never been separated at all and play lovely together most of the time!

 

[Griff]

Just another point to add folks which I am confused about:
I've read so much about bunnies and behaviours the last few months. The weird thing is with my two is that jake always grooms Elwood and has from the start. Elwood never returns the favour. Jake loves grooming them both. But I've read the submissive one is the one who does the grooming in which case I've read my two very very wrong or they are an oddity! Lol

 

[Omi]

Can't provide much advice I'm afraid, but just wanted to say that sometimes within bonded rabbits things don't appear to be as they are portrayed in articles on rabbit behaviour. I have three rabbits, Mum, Dad and Son. I've had them three years, but they were rescued so are older than that. I haven't got a clue who, if any, is the dominant one. They get along very well with absolutely no aggression, but will all groom each of the other rabbits. Sometimes two of them groom each other at the same time, which is very cute to watch. They also each occasionally, usually in spring, take turns in humping each other :lol: You said in your first post that Jake was the boss, but it wasn't always obvious. Perhaps consider whether they are still in fact in the process of establishing their relationship.

 

[tonibun]

Do they spend the night in the run or do you put them in their hutch? Only, if a cat comes in close to them it could spark off Referred Aggression which is when the dominant one chases the other one, because they can't attack the intruder.

 

[Griff]

Hi. They only have access to the run during the day. We shut the hutch up overnight. Husband doesn't think the cat comes in either as there are no signs of a cat as our garden isn't cat friendly so they can't litter in it and we never find any cat poo. It's more likely a fox wandering close by if anything.
Interesting point about the dominance thing. They both display different signs of dominance but Jake has always been the one we assumed was since a baby. I think Elwood wants to be sometimes and that's what the problem is!

 

[Griff]

Well something had happened today for the first time. Jake is lying down flat all relaxed whilst Elwood is sat up and grooming him. That had never happened. Usually Elwood is most relaxed and Jake always on watch out and Jake does all the grooming. I reckon they finally decided who's boss. The one who was really boss all along!

 

[tonibun]

:lol: hope so!

 

[Griff]

Hi tonibun
It's not sorted. They had another fight last night which resulted in blood and trip to vets. I'm at my wits end. Don't know what to do. I've posted a new thread

 

[Vegan_Bunny]

I think you need to separate them, unfortunately.
It sounds like the one always "on look out" is on edge, which could indicate he is not happy for whatever reason.
Are they eating ok? Have they both been thoroughly checked over for illness\dental issues? Rabbits can often fight if one isn't feeling well but they hide it so well that the only indication something is wrong can be a breakdown in their bond.
It could be that they simply do not like each other now they have grown up. The best bond is usually between neutered male and female buns but I know a lot of people on here have bonded males with no problems.
Sometimes we never know what the problem is. My trio recently fell out although it looks positive that they have rebonded.
If I were you I'd separate until they are both healed and try rebonding from scratch. Neutral, small space with nothing but hay and a bowl of water is the best (that's just my opinion, many people bond buns different ways so others may have different advice).

I hope neither were seriously hurt but definitely keep them separate for a while to cool off.

 

[Griff]

Hi. Thanks for the post. Yes they eat fine and no health issues. I might get them checked over by the vet but they are only 6 months and don't have any signs of illness or stress. They had a healthcheck at about 3 month old. They eat plenty and have lots of room to play. They are brothers from same litter so I'm surprised as they have never been apart, although I appreciate they are growing up and may have fallen out.

 

[tulsi]

My two brothers from the same litter fell out just after being neutered. I was advised (on here) to keep them completely separate (no sight, sound or smell of each other) for a few months then reintroduce on neutral territory.

I did this, also added two bonded sisters at the same time. They are now a happy quad. Frosty is still the dominant one (Snowflake is much quieter and submissive to F.). I do sometimes find a bit of fluff around but there is lots of snuggling and never any signs of injury.

Good luck with the rebonding when the time comes.