I've just had a failed attempt at bonding Elijah and Erin

[Bunny Buddy]

It took me such a lot of courage to even attempt it and it failed.

It was completely neutral territory, 4ft x 2ft. I gave them hay, water bowl and litter tray, a few apple sticks.

The first couple of minutes they both moved about, observing each other but not making any moves then I was really surprised that Erin started humping him as she is extremely placid (about 2 minutes in). He just let her, bless him, he seemed a little stunned but not scared or angry. They then did their own thing for a few minutes and she humped his head. There was a bit of scuffling as it was in the litter tray and I think it was just about slipping about, panic and misinterpretations. I separated them with a divider for about 15 seconds and it was amicable again. This lasted about 10 - 15 minutes, not much action, a bit of hay nibbling, litter tray digging, periscoping etc, not looking stressed or anything bad. She then humped him a few times and he just stayed still. She's bigger than him so I could hardly see him at one point and was a bit worried as I couldn't see his reaction. there there was a bit of scuffling and 'hissing' - from both of them I think and it was going to get nasty. I tried to grab Elijah as I felt he was most vulnerable but he's a slippery little eel and I couldn't get him but I'd at least broken their concentration. I then decided grabbing Erin was my best bet as I can handle her more easily. I got her out of the pen but she wriggled free - but at last on the other side of the pen to Elijah. I then picked her up, reassured her for few second and put her back in the carrier.

I just daren't put them together again tonight as I think it will end bad. In fact I daren't put them together again without a lot of feedback as to whether it's worth it I don't want any forced bonds as it's just not fair, I'll try any combinations but I don't want anybody bullied or unhappy.

I've put them back in their pens side-by-side and they are watching each other but don't seem stressed. Both had just eaten their Excel happily.

Any advice from those who know?

Erin is about 3 years old
Elijah is 1.5 years approx

I also have single buns Artie 6.5 and dominant (serial humper)
and Esme 3 years, placid. I could consider any combination of bond with the four of them.

 

[Santa]

That all sounds like absolutely normal bonding behaviour to me! In fact it sounds to me as if it was going quite well :? If one of them humps the other and the other doesn't respond, then that means that they are accepting of their 'position'. It's when they won't accept the other doing it, that it can be a problem. And of course if it's constant, you might expect the one being humped to get a bit fed up, which is why it might be necessary to just take the humper off from time to time - and always take the humper off if they are head humping simply because we don't want any bitten 'bits'.

Personally I would not completely separate them even with a divider during these encounters; as long as they are not really looking as if they are going to seriously attack each other, I would just hold the frisky/grumpy one away for a count of 10.

The fact that he accepted the humping and that things were calm between humping episodes suggest that they haven't taken an instant dislike to each other so I'd say those are very encouraging signs for a good bond. But the humping etc does need to happen in order to establish a bond, you can't expect them to just shuffle up to each other and start grooming (although it does happen from time to time, but it's rare!). It's not a case of forcing a bond after 15 minutes, that's perfectly normal. 15 hours in if it's still the same, you might stop and consider it, but it's absolutely 100% what I would expect of a bond which has encouraging first signs.

I would say the really crucial things now are to get a good period of time (a few days) when you can watch them closely, put them together but whenever they go to attack each other or if the humping is getting too much, gently hold them apart in the same pen for a count of 10 before releasing them again. You can try scattering some fresh hay or a bit of food as a distraction from time to time, and over the course of several hours, these interactions should get less confrontational and more settled. I think it's really, really important to not take one out for a 'time out'/rest unless the bond is obviously going to fail (i.e. they are constantly attacking each other when they are put together) or if one or more is getting so distressed that you are worried for their health. But a bit of stress, panting, etc, is perfectly normal. If you keep taking them out, it keeps going back to square one and they never get over their defensive "if I attack the other bun, they take it away" behaviour, which is normal but usually gets overcome very quickly.

From what you've said, I absolutely wouldn't give up. It sounds perfectly normal and pretty encouraging.

 

[janice]

From what you've said, I absolutely wouldn't give up. It sounds perfectly normal and pretty encouraging.

Agree with this.

 

[Bunny Buddy]

:wave:

Thank you so much both of you. I thought with the signs I was reading it was looking encouraging. It was just the hissing and I'm not sure if circling is the right term but in a circle following each other, it really looked like it would get violent as Elijah had obviously got a bit narked.

I bonded two brothers last weekend which was a really easy bond as I knew they had got on well before the snip and it was simply putting them on neutral territory and re-establishing them. From the brothers' behaviour (there was a lot of humping from both) I knew to accept this as normal for Elijah and Erin. There was also much grooming from the outset with these two (the brothers) as they had obviously missed each other when separated. I thought it had given me the courage to try it with two other bunnies but I maybe was too tired and just basically scared of them getting injured.

I think the best plan for me maybe for an experienced bonder to start them off with me witnessing so I know what is acceptable/bad etc.

Thank you so much for the feedback, I had a feeling I was being over vigilant. The head humping behaviour really scares me as there's too much risk of nipping and you can't see the head of the potential nipper.


Edit to add: I had been planning this for ages and had four days set aside for it, realistically I've still got three but I just don't think I can take the stress of them potentially attacking each other if this is what will happen while she's establishing her dominance. The humping behaviour I know needs to happen and was ready for it but little spats turning into more I think is too much for me to handle (without somebody experienced on hand). I did see her lower her head to him also but he just carried on past her. There was a fair bit of contact as well without there being conflict.

 

[janice]

Thank you so much both of you. I thought with the signs I was reading it was looking encouraging. It was just the hissing and I'm not sure if circling is the right term but in a circle following each other, it really looked like it would get violent as Elijah had obviously got a bit narked.
This is where having experience means you can read what is happening and know what to do, I would have put in a broom, pulled one away, counted to 10 slowly and released. Sometimes you have to do this a number of times until they settle.

I bonded two brothers last weekend which was a really easy bond as I knew they had got on well before the snip and it was simply putting them on neutral territory and re-establishing them. From the brothers' behaviour (there was a lot of humping from both) I knew to accept this as normal for Elijah and Erin. There was also much grooming from the outset with these two (the brothers) as they had obviously missed each other when separated. I thought it had given me the courage to try it with two other bunnies but I maybe was too tired and just basically scared of them getting injured.
Unfortunately all bonding is different and this can give a false sence of security when taking on another bonding which doesnt go to the same game plan as the first, this also throws people when they hope that both bondings are identical. When an owner is stressed it also rubs off on the bunnies.

I think the best plan for me maybe for an experienced bonder to start them off with me witnessing so I know what is acceptable/bad etc.

If you have the next few days, why not have an early night and then have another go tomorrow. Could you get a friend over who is reasonably calm to help support you.

 

[Bunny Buddy]

Thanks again for the input. I don't think I dare give it another go just now. I will stress them too much. I'll have to content myself with the knowledge that there is hope. There wouldn't really be room in the set up I have for two people to be close to the bonding pen, there's no other neutral territory in rooms without bunny residents.

I'd really want the friend to be an experienced bonder. I had my mum with me when I tried bonding Artie and Esme and I think she made me even worse :lol::lol:

I have another long weekend in a few weeks time I think I'll just aim for giving it another go then.

 

[KarenM]

I hope you manage to get some moral support (preferably not your mum :lol and try again soon. :wave:

 

[Gemmapookie]

Good luck hun :wave:
I agree it did sound as though it was going pretty well so I think it will be fine if you stay calm

 

[poppymoon]

best of luck with whatever you decide to try xxx

 

[Amy104]

I agree with all the things already said, it sounded pretty positive so hopefully you can find someone to help who can give you some support, its sooo difficult not to get emotional when bonding but its really important as they are terrors for picking up on our moods.

I also wanted to add that I never use litter trays when bonding incase if gives them something to take ownership of.

 

[Bunny Buddy]

:wave: Thanks everybody. It's a huge disappointment since I've been building myself up to this but at least I know they don't hate each other and it's my failing and not a case of it not being viable. I'll just have to work out Plan B.

I also wanted to add that I never use litter trays when bonding incase if gives them something to take ownership of.

Yeah, I've read this before but they were on a piece of carpet with pen panels round the edge so they needed somewhere to wee. They are both used to using a tray so I don't know what I could do as an alternative. It was a new tray so therefore neutral. I didn't want them weeing on the carpet, or holding wee because they didn't want to wee on the carpet