Help with bonding please, it seems to be going on forever!

[Dantooine]

Update!

What a stessful weekend

Got the shed cleared out, made it all nice for Dotty and Doug, put them in together about midday... a couple of fights/chases but nothing major, stuck with it and they soon settled, snuggling up and grooming.
They were in there til about 6pm but here is where I think we made a mistake!... We had to go out but didnt want to risk leaving them on their own in the shed, so put them into the kitchen (we have left them there before and they have been fine). We came back about 8pm, put them back in the shed - fighting began, but worse this time and it seemed to be Doug. He would not let Dotty come near him. Decided to put them back in the kitchen - but it carried on in there. Normally Dotty would display this behaviour and it was all Doug this time and Dotty seemed very scared at times. We stuck with it and left them in the kitchen til early hours of the morning - at times they would be sitting together grooming, next minute chasing and fighting.

It seems moving them about too much might have disturbed them - now seems like we've gone back a step which is not good considering how long this has been going on.

We put them back in there own seperate cages Sunday to Monday to let them calm down. Yesterday eve we put them back in the shed, this time with lots of nice food,hay, and some new toys. They werent too bad, still a couple of small fights. Before bed we part of a run diagonally across in the shed as a divider.
So I think now we just need to keep them in one place - while we are at work/asleep we will have the divider across (swapping them over each day), then while we are there to supervise we'll lift the divider out. if this doesn't work then I don't know what else to do!

Any thoughts?

Thanks

 

[GrahamL]

Update!

What a stessful weekend

Got the shed cleared out, made it all nice for Dotty and Doug, put them in together about midday... a couple of fights/chases but nothing major, stuck with it and they soon settled, snuggling up and grooming.
They were in there til about 6pm but here is where I think we made a mistake!... We had to go out but didnt want to risk leaving them on their own in the shed, so put them into the kitchen (we have left them there before and they have been fine). We came back about 8pm, put them back in the shed - fighting began, but worse this time and it seemed to be Doug. He would not let Dotty come near him. Decided to put them back in the kitchen - but it carried on in there. Normally Dotty would display this behaviour and it was all Doug this time and Dotty seemed very scared at times. We stuck with it and left them in the kitchen til early hours of the morning - at times they would be sitting together grooming, next minute chasing and fighting.

It seems moving them about too much might have disturbed them - now seems like we've gone back a step which is not good considering how long this has been going on.

We put them back in there own seperate cages Sunday to Monday to let them calm down. Yesterday eve we put them back in the shed, this time with lots of nice food,hay, and some new toys. They werent too bad, still a couple of small fights. Before bed we part of a run diagonally across in the shed as a divider.
So I think now we just need to keep them in one place - while we are at work/asleep we will have the divider across (swapping them over each day), then while we are there to supervise we'll lift the divider out. if this doesn't work then I don't know what else to do!

Any thoughts?

Thanks

From what i've read, i think you are trying to rush things. You really need to set aside a good few days or a week or so and just spend that bonding them, leaving them and moving them from neutral territory is just going to upset things in my opinion from what i've read

 

[Dantooine]

From what i've read, i think you are trying to rush things. You really need to set aside a good few days or a week or so and just spend that bonding them, leaving them and moving them from neutral territory is just going to upset things in my opinion from what i've read

Well we havent really rushed things as we've been doing this since July, and both the shed and the kitchen are neutral territories. That's why its so odd that they have only started fighting now in the neutral territories.

 

[Dantooine]

Still fighting now and again in the shed - they dont seem to like it together in there!
They are now in the kitchen and have been since yesterday morning, no fighting at all. Think we are going to leave them in there now, perhaps for a week.
Would this be a good amount of time to then try them again in the shed or the cage (having cleaned either first)?

 

[janice]

Still fighting now and again in the shed - they dont seem to like it together in there! I would suggest that the reason they may have fought in the shed is that you ended up putting up a divider and giving them each an area whilst you were unable to supervise them. When you removed the divider they were then on non neutral territory.

They are now in the kitchen and have been since yesterday morning, no fighting at all. Think we are going to leave them in there now, perhaps for a week.
Would this be a good amount of time to then try them again in the shed or the cage (having cleaned either first) A week is fine to leave them in one place, consistency is very important and this is another reason why your buns may have been fighting, constantly moving them is not helpful when bonding. When you put them back in the shed it needs to be revinegared and they should only have a confinded space which is slowly increased over the coming weeks.

 

[janice]

From what i've read, i think you are trying to rush things. You really need to set aside a good few days or a week or so and just spend that bonding them, leaving them and moving them from neutral territory is just going to upset things in my opinion from what i've read

Totally agree, it is so important to ensure a consistent neutral space is maintained without increasing the space too quickly.

 

[Dantooine]

Still fighting now and again in the shed - they dont seem to like it together in there! I would suggest that the reason they may have fought in the shed is that you ended up putting up a divider and giving them each an area whilst you were unable to supervise them. When you removed the divider they were then on non neutral territory.

They are now in the kitchen and have been since yesterday morning, no fighting at all. Think we are going to leave them in there now, perhaps for a week.
Would this be a good amount of time to then try them again in the shed or the cage (having cleaned either first) A week is fine to leave them in one place, consistency is very important and this is another reason why your buns may have been fighting, constantly moving them is not helpful when bonding. When you put them back in the shed it needs to be revinegared and they should only have a confinded space which is slowly increased over the coming weeks.

Thanks for the advice, makes sense. In the end we want to have them living in the hutch (which they have both lived in seperatly, but will be cleaned and vinegared). Do you think it would work puttng them straight into there after a week in the kitchen, or should we put them in the shed first for a week or two (as its a kind of semi neutral place)?

 

[janice]

Thanks for the advice, makes sense. In the end we want to have them living in the hutch (which they have both lived in seperatly, but will be cleaned and vinegared). Do you think it would work puttng them straight into there after a week in the kitchen, or should we put them in the shed first for a week or two (as its a kind of semi neutral place)?

I would do a really thorough clean of the hutch and put them in there for a week, then you can slowly give them access to the shed, you would need to use a pen to restrict their space until they have managed to get the whole of the shed.

If at any time they kick off reduce the space again and throroughly clean everything again, then once they have been fine for at least 48 hours then consider expanding the space

 

[Dantooine]

I would do a really thorough clean of the hutch and put them in there for a week, then you can slowly give them access to the shed, you would need to use a pen to restrict their space until they have managed to get the whole of the shed.

If at any time they kick off reduce the space again and throroughly clean everything again, then once they have been fine for at least 48 hours then consider expanding the space

The hutch isn't in the shed as it is too big. Although we do have a smaller standard sized hutch we could put in the shed.
Ideally we would like to have them living in the big hutch permanantly, then introduce a run (getting bigger over the weeks), then free run of the whole garden.

So forgetting the shed would the big hutch be okay for them to go into and stay in?
The big hutch is a two tierd one with a bedroom - we can close off the bedroom though leaving just the downstairs, which is about 1.5 metres x 0.5 metres.
Or should we go with the smaller hutch inside the shed first?
Sorry for all the questions!

 

[janice]

The hutch isn't in the shed as it is too big. Although we do have a smaller standard sized hutch we could put in the shed.Ideally we would like to have them living in the big hutch permanantly, then introduce a run (getting bigger over the weeks), then free run of the whole garden.

So forgetting the shed would the big hutch be okay for them to go into and stay in? I assumed from what you said that the hutch was in the shed. Definatley go for what ever they are going to oive in permanently and dont go for yet another temporary place. If the hutch is 2 tiered use the top layer first and then after about 72 hours allow them access to the lower level as well, then after a further week increase the sapce into the run you will add to it, only give them a small area and slowly increase it. Dont let them have access tot he garden for at least a month and be very wary of areas in the garden that they have both been to. After a couple of months the smells in the garden will decrease.

The big hutch is a two tierd one with a bedroom - we can close off the bedroom though leaving just the downstairs, which is about 1.5 metres x 0.5 metres.


Or should we go with the smaller hutch inside the shed first? No as this would result in more moves than necessary.

 

[Dantooine]

The hutch isn't in the shed as it is too big. Although we do have a smaller standard sized hutch we could put in the shed.Ideally we would like to have them living in the big hutch permanantly, then introduce a run (getting bigger over the weeks), then free run of the whole garden.

So forgetting the shed would the big hutch be okay for them to go into and stay in? I assumed from what you said that the hutch was in the shed. Definatley go for what ever they are going to oive in permanently and dont go for yet another temporary place. If the hutch is 2 tiered use the top layer first and then after about 72 hours allow them access to the lower level as well, then after a further week increase the sapce into the run you will add to it, only give them a small area and slowly increase it. Dont let them have access tot he garden for at least a month and be very wary of areas in the garden that they have both been to. After a couple of months the smells in the garden will decrease.

The big hutch is a two tierd one with a bedroom - we can close off the bedroom though leaving just the downstairs, which is about 1.5 metres x 0.5 metres.


Or should we go with the smaller hutch inside the shed first? No as this would result in more moves than necessary.

Thanks, sorry if I hadnt made things clear.

Okay we will put them straight in the hutch.
However the bedroom area is quite small, about 0.5 metres x 0.5 metres. Would that be okay? Im guessing they'd only have to be there for afew days before then opening up the bottom of the hutch?

 

[janice]

Thanks, sorry if I hadnt made things clear.

Okay we will put them straight in the hutch.
However the bedroom area is quite small, about 0.5 metres x 0.5 metres. Would that be okay? Im guessing they'd only have to be there for afew days before then opening up the bottom of the hutch?

I thought you had said that The big hutch is a two tierd one with a bedroom - we can close off the bedroom though leaving just the downstairs, which is about 1.5 metres x 0.5 metres. I assumed that the upstairs area would be the same size as you quoted being 1.5 m x 0.5 m, they would need to whole of the upstairs. I would not go any smaller than the top floor as this as this is only a small hutch being approximately 4.5 foot x 18 inches.

 

[Dantooine]

I thought you had said that The big hutch is a two tierd one with a bedroom - we can close off the bedroom though leaving just the downstairs, which is about 1.5 metres x 0.5 metres. I assumed that the upstairs area would be the same size as you quoted being 1.5 m x 0.5 m, they would need to whole of the upstairs. I would not go any smaller than the top floor as this as this is only a small hutch being approximately 4.5 foot x 18 inches.

Sorry, didnt describe it very well, infact i underestimated the measurements too! (im not at home at the mo to measure) Here is the exact same hutch here http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...z=1T4SUNA_enGB373GB206&tbs=isch:1&um=1&itbs=1

So as you can see, there is the downstairs and the smaller bedroom area (which id says is about 93cm x 86cm

 

[janice]

Sorry, didnt describe it very well, infact i underestimated the measurements too! (im not at home at the mo to measure) Here is the exact same hutch here http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...z=1T4SUNA_enGB373GB206&tbs=isch:1&um=1&itbs=1

So as you can see, there is the downstairs and the smaller bedroom area (which id says is about 93cm x 86cm

The 'bedroom space' is too small to put them in for a few days. Unfortunately the bottom area of the run is too open and provides no protection to keep rabbits in particuarly if predators visit or the weather is cold or wet.

The only suggestion I could give is either to permanently give the shed over to the rabbits and to give them part of the area which could be penend off and slowly the area increased in space.

The other suggestion would be to get them more suitable accomodation as coops are they are sold are not suitable as homes for rabbits without doing major adaptations. My suggestion would be to board up 3 complete sides of a coop and part of the other side, then adding a permanent run to it. There is someone on here who has done that to one of them very successfully, however I cannot find the pictuers of what they have done.

sorry..

 

[Dantooine]

The 'bedroom space' is too small to put them in for a few days. Unfortunately the bottom area of the run is too open and provides no protection to keep rabbits in particuarly if predators visit or the weather is cold or wet.

The only suggestion I could give is either to permanently give the shed over to the rabbits and to give them part of the area which could be penend off and slowly the area increased in space.

The other suggestion would be to get them more suitable accomodation as coops are they are sold are not suitable as homes for rabbits without doing major adaptations. My suggestion would be to board up 3 complete sides of a coop and part of the other side, then adding a permanent run to it. There is someone on here who has done that to one of them very successfully, however I cannot find the pictuers of what they have done.

sorry..

We do have the cage backing into a corner so a wall and fence do provide some protection. We also have a lot of tarpaulin which we could easily put around 3 sides of the cage. Would that be okay for a week, with the bedroom then closed off?

I see what you mean about the cage - we have not yet had rabbits through the cold winter so we were thinking of adapting the cage anyway before it gets really cold.

 

[janice]

If you give them some protection from the elements and given them places where they can hide if predators visit they should be ok until they can get access to the bedroom.

 

[Dantooine]

If you give them some protection from the elements and given them places where they can hide if predators visit they should be ok until they can get access to the bedroom.

Thanks for all the advice, will update next week when they go in the hutch together.

All is going well in the kitchen at the moment, no fighting whatsoever, just bonding, cuddling and grooming!

 

[Dantooine]

Right, after a week of perfect bonding (and constantly cleaning up poo and wee!) in the kitchen we put them in the their hutch together.

Hutch was thoroughly cleaned and vinegared, and so far they seem fine. There were a couple of little chases from Dotty in the first half hour but that was it. We were confident enough to leave them last night and seemed fine this morning - no fur anywhere.

So FINALLY success, fingers crossed!!

Thank you all who offered advice :wave:

Will get some photos up of the happy couple soon!

 

[Dantooine]

Okay so it has been about 2 weeks ago and Dotty and Doug have been getting on fine, they now seem a very happy couple! Dotty, the female, seems to be the most dominant one from minor body language.

However, we were woken up this morning to the sound of a rattling hutch, which sounds like fighting! I went down and sure enough it was. I let them be first of all and gave them their breakfst and they were fine, so went back upstairs to get ready for work. It then happened afew more times, I went to observe them and it seem to be Doug being the one starting it, Dotty just looked scared. Eventually I grabbed Doug and took him out the cage. This was about 5 mins before we all had to leave for work!
So deciding we couldnt leave them in the cage alone we brought them both into the kitchen, the neutral territory where we were bonding them.
15 mins later (and late for work!) they had been fine, sitting together and no aggresive behaviour as displayed by Doug earlier. So we left them to it and went to work.

Was is going on though? Why the change in behaviour from Doug? Has he had enough of being dominated? It was very strange and sudden.

We are going to give the cage a good clean tonight and then try them back in there and hope for the best.

Any suggestions what this could be?

Thanks