Help with bonding please, it seems to be going on forever!

[Dantooine]

Hi,
First post - Been stalking this site for a while for help on bonding but thought I'd share my story as every situation seems to be different!

We adopted a bonded pair, Dotty (female lop, 18 months) and Fidget (Male lop, 2 years) in April from the Blue Cross. Unfortunatley Fidget died around June, this was very sad as he was the more friendly of the two and he had got very confident.
About a month later we decided we wanted to get another male companion for Dotty. We decided to go with Doug (male lionhead, approx 2 years, neuted around May) and we brought him back around beginning of July.

Started them off in seperate cages had put them together in a run afew times with a fence inbetween. We later tried them without the fence inbetween but they fought quite quickly.

Next try was in the living room. Being a fairly neutral territory (Dotty had been in afew times but doesnt like it because of the laminate flooring!) they got on well for a while but some fighting eventually broke out.

Kitchen was next. Here they seemed absolutly fine, no fighting. Doug however liked to wee everywhere and got himself and Dotty very dirty! We decided to put a toilet in there to see if they would go in there, as Dotty is potty trained, but lead to Dotty wanting to make it her toilet and then lead to fighting.
Dotty seems very terrotorial!
We continued with the kitchen though, with no toilet (just wee everywhere!) and they look like a happy bonded couple, with snuggling, Dotty grooming Doug, lying down together, eating together etc. However we can only get them in the kitchen together afew hours at a time and because the wee everywhere made things too stressful and smelly.

We were then advised to create a run between the two hutches with a fence in between. The run is covered so we can leave the hutch doors open and they are free to go in and out. This has gone fine and there has been no fighting at the fence. We then bought them into the kitchen each day for a while, then put them back in each others cage, swapping like this everyday.

This happened for a couple of weeks so we then gave it another shot outside in the run with the fence in between removed. They were fine for a while but fighting soon broke out, which always seems to be started by the territorial Dotty! So we put the fence back in and carried on.

We've now been advised to do the following:
-Clean and sterolise the big cage (the one they will be living in)
-Put doug in the big cage for a week or so and leave him there (so it will just have his scent)
-Leave Dotty in the other cage
-Continue with the run with fence inbetween
-After a week try Dotty in the big cage with Doug

We were told that Doug will be alot more inviting of her coming into his territory than vice versa, which makes sense.

Will this work?? We don't know, but will try it at the weekend!

Sorry for the very long post but i thought it would be best to share all info i have.

So any tips/suggestions for our situation? Does this seem like a good idea?

BTW Dougs weeing problem seems to have died down quite a bit and we were told that could be a combination of him recently being neuted and trying to be dominant.

Thanks in advance!

Dan

 

[PixieRabbit]

It may seem a bit off topic, but I heard a breeder say in a forum once that females have to go into the males hutch to be mated. So it's sort of similar, that she'd be less stressed going into his, and he'd be more confident, than vice versa.
How long has he been neutered? It can take a whole 8 weeks for the little swimmers to die and possibly even longer for hormones to settle.

 

[Dantooine]

It may seem a bit off topic, but I heard a breeder say in a forum once that females have to go into the males hutch to be mated. So it's sort of similar, that she'd be less stressed going into his, and he'd be more confident, than vice versa.
How long has he been neutered? It can take a whole 8 weeks for the little swimmers to die and possibly even longer for hormones to settle.

I think you are right, theres no way Dotty would let him to her cage!

Only problem is that it WAS her cage. By sight. But if it's mainly smell they go by then i'm hoping it should be okay.

Its been about 3 months now, and he doesn't try to hump her at all.

 

[Amy104]

Are you bonding in neuteral territory and how big a space are you using?

Too much space to soon will set them off.

As a rule males are more excepting of females into their space than vica versa but personally I'd want the final home to be neutral.

At first you cannot use any litter trays etc as they will try to claim ownership.

Have you tried sticking them in a carrier and taking them on a short car ride?

 

[janice]

When bonding please use a confined space which is totally neutral territory and where neither has been before. Putting them into space where either the male or the female has been is not advisable and can result in an injury due to territorial dominance.

 

[Dantooine]

Are you bonding in neuteral territory and how big a space are you using?

Too much space to soon will set them off.

As a rule males are more excepting of females into their space than vica versa but personally I'd want the final home to be neutral.

At first you cannot use any litter trays etc as they will try to claim ownership.

Have you tried sticking them in a carrier and taking them on a short car ride?

They have been in the kitchen many times together which is a neutral territory and in there they do seem bonded. We now want to try them in the hutch where they will be living, which has been cleaned out and sterilised. Doug will be living in there and then we will move Dotty in.

 

[Dantooine]

When bonding please use a confined space which is totally neutral territory and where neither has been before. Putting them into space where either the male or the female has been is not advisable and can result in an injury due to territorial dominance.

Thanks, but how does one get around this without buying a new cage?

 

[Nicola1]

Thanks, but how does one get around this without buying a new cage?

spray the area with vinegar to neutralise the scents of the other bunny :wave:

 

[Dantooine]

Tried them in the cage together this weekend as advised but unexpectedly Doug went for Dotty, had a bit of a fight and then we seperated them. Put them back in the kitchen and they were totally fine.

We have a shed which, once cleaned out, we could probably try as neither of them have been in it. So we were thinking try them in there for a week, clean the other cage and neutralise with vinegar, then try them in that cage.

Any thoughts would be grateful. Thanks

 

[Foofy]

Maybe the shed would be a good idea if its small and neutral territory.

I have recently bonded 2 boys and they spent quite a few weeks on neutral territory in a dog crate (in a shed) before I even attempted putting them in one of the outside cages. By the time I did put them in one of the cages outside it had been scrubbed out with vinegar and water a few weeks ago. They are now bonded successfully.

I would try smaller spaces and neutral territory. If you haven't got a neutral crate/cage/run maybe you could get a 2nd hand one from ebay or adtrader, I bought a 2nd hand dog crate for my bonding as I couldn't really afford a new one. At least that way it won't smell or have been used by either of your bunnies. Good luck :wave:

 

[Dantooine]

Maybe the shed would be a good idea if its small and neutral territory.

I have recently bonded 2 boys and they spent quite a few weeks on neutral territory in a dog crate (in a shed) before I even attempted putting them in one of the outside cages. By the time I did put them in one of the cages outside it had been scrubbed out with vinegar and water a few weeks ago. They are now bonded successfully.

I would try smaller spaces and neutral territory. If you haven't got a neutral crate/cage/run maybe you could get a 2nd hand one from ebay or adtrader, I bought a 2nd hand dog crate for my bonding as I couldn't really afford a new one. At least that way it won't smell or have been used by either of your bunnies. Good luck :wave:

Thanks for the reply - yes the shed is fairly small. We do have a dog crate too but I think should be okay, and its smaller than our kitchen anyway!

Had either of your rabbits been in the cage they are now living in before?

Both rabbits have lived in the cage now seperatly, but I am just worried that even after cleaning/vinegar-ing the cage that they might fight when we put them together...

 

[Foofy]

Thanks for the reply - yes the shed is fairly small. We do have a dog crate too but I think should be okay, and its smaller than our kitchen anyway!

Had either of your rabbits been in the cage they are now living in before?

Both rabbits have lived in the cage now seperatly, but I am just worried that even after cleaning/vinegar-ing the cage that they might fight when we put them together...

Yes my 2 are now living in the hutch that Buttons (submissive one) used to occupy on his own. Guess either the vinegar trick worked or Buttons didn't mind Peter the dominant bun moving into his hutch Could you try the same once they are living OK together in neutral territory try them both in the hutch that used to belong to the submissive bunny?

Guess I was lucky with my 2 they seemed to hit it off from the beginning and never had any scraps, only Peter humping Buttons all the time for a couple of weeks. I think it only took me so long to bond them as I was nervous and worried that Buttons would not tolerate all the humping but he did and they are now fine not much humping any more. I was also worried that the grooming was all one way submissive Buttons always grooming Peter but now Peter grooms Buttons quite a lot too but it took a few weeks

 

[Dantooine]

Yes my 2 are now living in the hutch that Buttons (submissive one) used to occupy on his own. Guess either the vinegar trick worked or Buttons didn't mind Peter the dominant bun moving into his hutch Could you try the same once they are living OK together in neutral territory try them both in the hutch that used to belong to the submissive bunny?

Guess I was lucky with my 2 they seemed to hit it off from the beginning and never had any scraps, only Peter humping Buttons all the time for a couple of weeks. I think it only took me so long to bond them as I was nervous and worried that Buttons would not tolerate all the humping but he did and they are now fine not much humping any more. I was also worried that the grooming was all one way submissive Buttons always grooming Peter but now Peter grooms Buttons quite a lot too but it took a few weeks

Thats a good sign then. Both of ours have lived in the hutch but Doug, the less territoral one, is in there now. We were thinking of moving the cage too to the other side of the patio facing a different way to totally loose any scent/urine on the floor and perhaps give it a more neutral feel for them.

Fingers crossed it will work then - next thing to do now is clear out all the c**p in the shed and fix the leaking roof!

 

[Foofy]

Good luck with the shed, let us know how you get on with the bonding :wave:

Maybe moving the hutch would help too as long as it had been scrubbed out with vinegar as well.

 

[Dantooine]

Good luck with the shed, let us know how you get on with the bonding :wave:

Maybe moving the hutch would help too as long as it had been scrubbed out with vinegar as well.

Thanks very much - will do :wave:

 

[janice]

Another option after thoroughly cleaning the hutch out with vinegar would be to put lino on the floor which would also make it easy to clean.

 

[twobunnies&apony]

Does the vinegar definitely work? I have a newly bonded pair hopefully coming home at the weekend to a hutch that 'belongs' to one of them. I have vinegared it but am still really worried. Will the rabbit smells have gone? What about the fact that she will surely recognise it as her home? Does this not matter? Should I put the new bun (male) in first alone for a few minutes or just put them both in together? Do you think I need to clean the waterproof hutch and run covers with vinegar too? I thought yes but wondered if this might just be paranoia? Sorry for so many questions - just very worried about it all.:?

 

[Foofy]

Does the vinegar definitely work? I have a newly bonded pair hopefully coming home at the weekend to a hutch that 'belongs' to one of them. I have vinegared it but am still really worried. Will the rabbit smells have gone? What about the fact that she will surely recognise it as her home? Does this not matter? Should I put the new bun (male) in first alone for a few minutes or just put them both in together? Do you think I need to clean the waterproof hutch and run covers with vinegar too? I thought yes but wondered if this might just be paranoia? Sorry for so many questions - just very worried about it all.:?

If I was in your situation I would start the newly bonded buns off in a neutral crate or cage in a neutral area first.

 

[janice]

Does the vinegar definitely work? Yes definately if you use a 50:50 concentration.

I have a newly bonded pair hopefully coming home at the weekend to a hutch that 'belongs' to one of them. I have vinegared it but am still really worried. Will the rabbit smells have gone? If you clean it properly with a 50@50 solution of vinegar and water you can remove all traces of smells. Smells indoors such as on carpets are more difficult to remove and this is where advance preparation weeks prior to bonding are essential.

What about the fact that she will surely recognise it as her home? There are lots of things you can do, removing any traces of smell are really important, if the flooring was wood before cover it in lino after it has been scrubbed in a 50:50 solution of vinegar and water. Put the contents of the hutch in different places, everything must be neutralised or new.

Should I put the new bun (male) in first alone for a few minutes or just put them both in together? No, after bonding rabbits they become a pair, where one goes the other goes at the same time.

Do you think I need to clean the waterproof hutch and run covers with vinegar too? Yes, anything in the close vicinity of anywhere they will go needs to be neutralised.

I thought yes but wondered if this might just be paranoia? When bonding rabbits there is no room for paranoia, everything must be cleaned. preparation for bonding rabbits and there after care is one of the most important things you need to do.

 

[janice]

When bonding your buns need consistency, it is best to start bonding and continue and not to keep moving them about different rooms / places. Let them settle for at least 72 hours after their last sign of aggression / fighting / chasing before moving them. Moving them unsettles them and can result in you being back to square one.