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Foxes broke through our fence last night

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I am sure there are many ways to deter them, there have been lots of suggestions on RU before I am not a fox expert, my opinion will never change on the issue as I am sure your's will not. This is not a personal attack on you in any way just a complete difference of opinion:D
 
I am sure there are many ways to deter them, there have been lots of suggestions on RU before I am not a fox expert, my opinion will never change on the issue as I am sure your's will not. This is not a personal attack on you in any way just a complete difference of opinion:D

I dont read it as a personal attack :)
 
The question posed of 'where do you draw the line' is one that we all answer for ourselves every day.

A meat eater or someone who wears leather may draw the line at horseflesh or human flesh, a vegetarian at actually ingestion of dead flesh, a vegan at a different level. Most of us are fortunate enough in our day to day lives not to have to answer the question 'me or them'? We are rarely faced with (for example) wild dogs carrying off our only food source or larger carnivores catching small children.

However as rabbit (or others small domestic) owners we are increasingly confronting 'us or them' with the urban fox. In the past you may have faced this less traumatically by killing a fly when you thought it may land on your rabbit and cause flystrike, or a mosquito which you found in the same room as the houserabbts and might be carrying myxi. Like me you may have killed that fly or mosquito despite the fact that normally you would go around 'saving' earthworms and spiders. You saved the spider because you could do so with no threat to yourself or your loved one (rabbit in this case).

But you (or at least, I,) killed the mozzie and the fly as they did carry potential harm.

You may then have faced (and if not certainly will face soon, as they too are booming) the same question concerning rats. Should you let them create nests and burrows next to the rabbit runs despite the fact they carry disease and fleas - which in turn carry myxi?

Now you are facing the same question about the fox . . . . where indeed do you draw the line?

So far the measures I have taken to keep the foxes out of the garden are working, albeit at the 'expense' of my rabbits freedom. But when the fox population density becomes so high that they will ignore electric fencing, sonic deterrants and wire, then I will be faced with the question - the fox or my rabbit.

It is not an easy question.

But ask yourself, if the question was 'the fox or my child' what would your answer be??

PS And don't forget that the very nature of a deterrant is to deflect the fox away from your garden . . . so where will it go? Answer - to someone else's garden and to kill someone else's rabbit which is less well protected. The lack of protection is not the rabbits fault - but by deterring the fox from your garden you have in a way contributed to the other rabbits death. By my putting up an electric fence all my chickens have survived - but only at the expense of the 10 ducks who used to be on an allotment about 30metres away from mine - their owners did not get an electric fence and the fox ate them instead of eating my hens. I feel guilty for those ducks - it was not their fault that my deterrant worked and that their owners could not afford £400 fencing when the fox started to call.
 
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The question posed of 'where do you draw the line' is one that we all answer for ourselves every day.

A meat eater or someone who wears leather may draw the line at horseflesh or human flesh, a vegetarian at actually ingestion of dead flesh, a vegan at a different level. Most of us are fortunate enough in our day to day lives not to have to answer the question 'me or them'? We are rarely faced with (for example) wild dogs carrying off our only food source or larger carnivores catching small children.

However as rabbit (or others small domestic) owners we are increasingly confronting 'us or them' with the urban fox. In the past you may have faced this less traumatically by killing a fly when you thought it may land on your rabbit and cause flystrike, or a mosquito which you found in the same room as the houserabbts and might be carrying myxi. Like me you may have killed that fly or mosquito despite the fact that normally you would go around 'saving' earthworms and spiders. You saved the spider because you could do so with no threat to yourself or your loved one (rabbit in this case).

But you (or at least, I,) killed the mozzie and the fly as they did carry potential harm.

You may then have faced (and if not certainly will face soon, as they too are booming) the same question concerning rats. Should you let them create nests and burrows next to the rabbit runs despite the fact they carry disease and fleas - which in turn carry myxi?

Now you are facing the same question about the fox . . . . where indeed do you draw the line?

So far the measures I have taken to keep the foxes out of the garden are working, albeit at the 'expense' of my rabbits freedom. But when the fox population density becomes so high that they will ignore electric fencing, sonic deterrants and wire, then I will be faced with the question - the fox or my rabbit.

It is not an easy question.

But ask yourself, if the question was 'the fox or my child' what would your answer be??

Excellent post :thumb:
 
The question posed of 'where do you draw the line' is one that we all answer for ourselves every day.

A meat eater or someone who wears leather may draw the line at horseflesh or human flesh, a vegetarian at actually ingestion of dead flesh, a vegan at a different level. Most of us are fortunate enough in our day to day lives not to have to answer the question 'me or them'? We are rarely faced with (for example) wild dogs carrying off our only food source or larger carnivores catching small children.

However as rabbit (or others small domestic) owners we are increasingly confronting 'us or them' with the urban fox. In the past you may have faced this less traumatically by killing a fly when you thought it may land on your rabbit and cause flystrike, or a mosquito which you found in the same room as the houserabbts and might be carrying myxi. Like me you may have killed that fly or mosquito despite the fact that normally you would go around 'saving' earthworms and spiders. You saved the spider because you could do so with no threat to yourself or your loved one (rabbit in this case).

But you (or at least, I,) killed the mozzie and the fly as they did carry potential harm.

You may then have faced (and if not certainly will face soon, as they too are booming) the same question concerning rats. Should you let them create nests and burrows next to the rabbit runs despite the fact they carry disease and fleas - which in turn carry myxi?

Now you are facing the same question about the fox . . . . where indeed do you draw the line?

So far the measures I have taken to keep the foxes out of the garden are working, albeit at the 'expense' of my rabbits freedom. But when the fox population density becomes so high that they will ignore electric fencing, sonic deterrants and wire, then I will be faced with the question - the fox or my rabbit.

It is not an easy question.

But ask yourself, if the question was 'the fox or my child' what would your answer be??

PS And don't forget that the very nature of a deterrant is to deflect the fox away from your garden . . . so where will it go? Answer - to someone else's garden and to kill someone else's rabbit which is less well protected. The lack of protection is not the rabbits fault - but by deterring the fox from your garden you have in a way contributed to the other rabbits death. By my putting up an electric fence all my chickens have survived - but only at the expense of the 10 ducks who used to be on an allotment about 30metres away from mine - their owners did not get an electric fence and the fox ate them instead of eating my hens. I feel guilty for those ducks - it was not their fault that my deterrant worked and that their owners could not afford £400 fencing when the fox started to call.

Brilliant post! :thumb:
 
I'm sure i'll get a complete roasting for this but IMO there is no comparison between my pets and my children :? I love my pets dearly but they do not come close to the love i have for my children. So yes, if it was the fox or my children the fox would have to go, but i would not go out and shoot my local foxes for my rabbits. I just do all i can to keep them safe.
 
I'm sure i'll get a complete roasting for this but IMO there is no comparison between my pets and my children :? I love my pets dearly but they do not come close to the love i have for my children. So yes, if it was the fox or my children the fox would have to go, but i would not go out and shoot my local foxes for my rabbits. I just do all i can to keep them safe.

Completely agree 100% if you get a roasting for this then so will I.
 
No, no roasting:

Just the suggestion that by your rating or valueing one species 'above' another (in your case specific humans having more of a 'value' than foxes or rabbits) we are having to admit that we all make personal choices and personal value judgements.

My own value judgement is my rabbits above the fox .

Not having wished or wanted for any children I cannot comment how I would feel in the value judgement of fox versus children or rabbit versus children.

From my PS (above) it is already clear that although I feel guilty I have inadvertantly valued my own rabbit/hens above other peoples.
 
We have foxes here. I live in the City but we border many fields and farms. Thankfully we are quite lucky that our gardens all run off one another so they would have to really jump over seven fences to get to us.

Don't underestimate foxes - they jump the fences in our garden as if they were hurdles, they would think nothing of making their way through a row of gardens, jumping over that many fences.

I don't think we can really compare foxes with flies/rats. Creatures are considered pests because (rightly or wrongly) they are a danger/health hazard to humans & that is the main reason why we kill them & it's viewed as acceptable to do so. Foxes are just unfortunate in that they are extremely clever animals, happen to eat meat and will go for the easiest source.

As sally and bunbuns have said, as much as I love my bunnies, that love does not compare to the love I feel for my children. If foxes suddenly started eating children, then I would change my viewpoint.
 
No, no roasting:

Just the suggestion that by your rating or valueing one species 'above' another (in your case specific humans having more of a 'value' than foxes or rabbits) we are having to admit that we all make personal choices and personal value judgements.

My own value judgement is my rabbits above the fox .

Not having wished or wanted for any children I cannot comment how I would feel in the value judgement of fox versus children or rabbit versus children.

From my PS (above) it is already clear that although I feel guilty I have inadvertantly valued my own rabbit/hens above other peoples.

Your posts on this have been exellent. The hysteria about "murdering" foxes is quite odd, when put into context. Assuming most people vaccinate against Myxomatosis, aren't we ALL guilty of valuing our own rabbits lives against the lab rabbits that are destroyed after Nobi-Vac Myxo is batch tested? So, we wont protect our rabbits from an out of control predator, because thats "murder", but we will sacrifice other members of the species we care about, to protect our own, because....................?
 
Your posts on this have been exellent. The hysteria about "murdering" foxes is quite odd, when put into context. Assuming most people vaccinate against Myxomatosis, aren't we ALL guilty of valuing our own rabbits lives against the lab rabbits that are destroyed after Nobi-Vac Myxo is batch tested? So, we wont protect our rabbits from an out of control predator, because thats "murder", but we will sacrifice other members of the species we care about, to protect our own, because....................?

You read my mind Mudgy !! :shock:

Spooky................:?

ETA Same applies for the VHD Vac.
How do people think that came about.......................
 
Your posts on this have been exellent. The hysteria about "murdering" foxes is quite odd, when put into context. Assuming most people vaccinate against Myxomatosis, aren't we ALL guilty of valuing our own rabbits lives against the lab rabbits that are destroyed after Nobi-Vac Myxo is batch tested? So, we wont protect our rabbits from an out of control predator, because thats "murder", but we will sacrifice other members of the species we care about, to protect our own, because....................?

Thats an excellent point that I had completely forgotten about. In fact to be honest - I did not even know about the deaths after testing - I now feel very sad that I could be so thoughtless.
 
I don't think we can really compare foxes with flies/rats. Creatures are considered pests because (rightly or wrongly) they are a danger/health hazard to humans & that is the main reason why we kill them & it's viewed as acceptable to do so. Foxes are just unfortunate in that they are extremely clever animals, happen to eat meat and will go for the easiest source.

In fact, on the continent foxes are the single biggest carrier of rabies. Now, if rabies ever makes it to the UK, do you want rabid foxes hanging around your garden and coming into your house?

If foxes suddenly started eating children, then I would change my viewpoint.

There is some anecdotal evidence that foxes are now starting to attack babies and young children. As long ago as 2003, when my partner and I were clearing out his late father's bungalow in Hillingdon (west London), one of the neighbours told us that a fox had leapt up onto his grand-daughter's pushchair and tried to pull her out. I encountered a fox on a path in broad daylight a few yards from John's dad's bungalow. Not only was it not afraid of me, an adult, it actually adopted a threatening stance and bared its teeth.

A couple of months later, when I went down to London for an interview, I picked up a copy of the Standard to read on the train back. In it was a double page spread about a group of parents in another west London area who were demanding the council get rid of foxes living in shrubbery on nearby wasteland. The foxes had begun stalking young children and grabbing at their clothing and the children could no longer be left to play in back gardens. However, a local wildlife group was denying vociferously that foxes would ever attack humans. Yet the parents, like John's dad's neighbour, were quite clear about what they had seen.

The reality is that foxes, like any other animal, will change their behaviour over time in response to the conditions they encounter. There is absolutely no doubt at all that urban foxes are now completely habituated to humans and have no fear of us at all. Attacks on vulnerable humans, most likely children, are going to become much more common.
 
In fact, on the continent foxes are the single biggest carrier of rabies. Now, if rabies ever makes it to the UK, do you want rabid foxes hanging around your garden and coming into your house?



There is some anecdotal evidence that foxes are now starting to attack babies and young children. As long ago as 2003, when my partner and I were clearing out his late father's bungalow in Hillingdon (west London), one of the neighbours told us that a fox had leapt up onto his grand-daughter's pushchair and tried to pull her out. I encountered a fox on a path in broad daylight a few yards from John's dad's bungalow. Not only was it not afraid of me, an adult, it actually adopted a threatening stance and bared its teeth.

A couple of months later, when I went down to London for an interview, I picked up a copy of the Standard to read on the train back. In it was a double page spread about a group of parents in another west London area who were demanding the council get rid of foxes living in shrubbery on nearby wasteland. The foxes had begun stalking young children and grabbing at their clothing and the children could no longer be left to play in back gardens. However, a local wildlife group was denying vociferously that foxes would ever attack humans. Yet the parents, like John's dad's neighbour, were quite clear about what they had seen.

The reality is that foxes, like any other animal, will change their behaviour over time in response to the conditions they encounter. There is absolutely no doubt at all that urban foxes are now completely habituated to humans and have no fear of us at all. Attacks on vulnerable humans, most likely children, are going to become much more common.

Foxes attacking children? DONT MAKE ME LAUGH! :lol: I know, lets blame them for the rise in gas and electric prices while we're at it, I mean they MUST be to blame for it all :roll: Oh, and I hear a fox was responsible for the Titanic sinking as well...:lol:
 
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I totally LOVE foxes :love: And will continue to feed 8 gorgeous ones in my local churchyard every night. I find the comments of some so called "animal lovers" on here truly shocking. Small wonder I prefer animals to humans.
 
In fact, on the continent foxes are the single biggest carrier of rabies. Now, if rabies ever makes it to the UK, do you want rabid foxes hanging around your garden and coming into your house?

We're not talking about rabid foxes though. As I already said, if foxes were threatening my children then yes I would change my viewpoint.

Re. the anecdotal evidence of foxes attacking children - if the attacks you quoted happened way back in 2003, how come we haven't already seen a sharp rise in those kind of attacks over the last 6 years and are there any more recent events you can quote to substantiate your theory?
 
Your posts on this have been exellent. The hysteria about "murdering" foxes is quite odd, when put into context. Assuming most people vaccinate against Myxomatosis, aren't we ALL guilty of valuing our own rabbits lives against the lab rabbits that are destroyed after Nobi-Vac Myxo is batch tested? So, we wont protect our rabbits from an out of control predator, because thats "murder", but we will sacrifice other members of the species we care about, to protect our own, because....................?

I wasn't saying that I wouldn't protect my rabbits from foxes - I said that it wasn't necessary to kill foxes to do so, that's the reason for the 'hysteria about murdering foxes'.
 
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