SarahP
Wise Old Thumper
Definitely. :? For the piggies I try to balance it up, so a high calcium veg, a moderate and a low in every meal.
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Do you consider the calcium levels of the food you give your rabbits?
- Thread starter The Duchess
- Start date
Definitely. :? For the piggies I try to balance it up, so a high calcium veg, a moderate and a low in every meal.
The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
On the list I have in front of me spring greens are the highest in calcium (alongside mint) in Mg per cup of veg. Both are 210 mg. Kale is around 130 mg, parsley is 200mg, watercress is 170 mg. Broccoli is 56mg, cabbage is around 49mg.
Low calcium veg are brussels at 26mg, cauliflower at 21mg, cucumber at 18mg.
areia
Wise Old Thumper
i do the bottled water thing too ( though not all the time )and found they drunk a little less ( my waters terrible )
but some bottle waters do actualy have added calcium in too
the tap water not to good for us either tbh catch 22
the amount people feed are not clear really i know someone who feeds whole carrots and half cabbages to 2 buns couple of times a week
where as i will for example take one cabbage leaf split in half and thats for 2 one carrot will be divided by 4 and then i dont do this everyday and i vary it
but some bottle waters do actualy have added calcium in too
the tap water not to good for us either tbh catch 22
the amount people feed are not clear really i know someone who feeds whole carrots and half cabbages to 2 buns couple of times a week
where as i will for example take one cabbage leaf split in half and thats for 2 one carrot will be divided by 4 and then i dont do this everyday and i vary it
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The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
Our water is awful and we get a line around the bowls very quickly where the water has evaporated and left the calcium behind.
I shall definitely be doing the bottled water for Tally bun, I just hope it's not too late for her
Bunny Buddy
Wise Old Thumper
I've seen lists that suggest kale is a lot higher in calcium than spring greens and others vica versa.
The list FHB gave me suggests spring greens are 'moderate' and kale is 'high', so I'm sticking with that version and I only feed kale rarely now.
Wow I never realised spring greens or mint was that high! :shock:
I also noticed when Dolly had suspected Cystitis and was wet underneath...I found when I placed a bowl inside their enclosure as appose to the bottle thing improved ...she has been bone dry underneath since..c(ould be coincidence) and all the fur is nice and white now,
I won't go back to the bottle.
The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
I agree, I have seen various lists today while I've been doing web searches. Basically I am going to cut right down on anything in the 'red zone'.
The awful thing is that dandelions are up in the high levels too - my list has it at 103mg, so there was me giving the buns a treat with freshly picked leaves from the garden, thinking it was okay (apart from the duiretic properties of course) but now I find it's not that great for them because of calcium.
areia
Wise Old Thumper
:shock: i am very surprised at the order of those levels are
re evaluating measures now
Bunny Buddy
Wise Old Thumper
FHB told us that dandelions are still a good treat to give even to buns that you need to watch calcium intake of because even though there's a lot of calcium in them, because they have diuretic properties the calcium gets flushed out quickly so it *probably* balances out anyway.
The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
This is a good article.
http://www.rabbit.org/health/urolith.html
And this is quite a comprehensive (American) list. http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html
http://www.rabbit.org/health/urolith.html
And this is quite a comprehensive (American) list. http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html
This thread is really very interesting. I have recently been feeding spring greens on an almost daily basis because I read that green veg is important and spring greens seemed to be an accepted 'good green' to feed. I also feed flat leaf parsley on a regular basis. I do feed a variety of other greens too but these two leaped out of the thread as ones that I should probably cut back on.
I shall watch with interest.
I shall watch with interest.
The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
helgalush
Wise Old Thumper
Sorry Helen, did you mean to post that one, its just that it includes boiled, canned and pickled veggies?
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I'm not 100% convinced the calcium in veg is worth worrying about over anything else. Take parsley - which is often quoted as a high calcium veg - even that only has 200mg per 100g. Which is only about half a rabbits daily calcium requirement and 100g of parsley is a lot! Yes, if you're feeding very large quantities daily of one of the handful of veg that are extremely high in calcium that could be an issue but I doubt very many owners do that. If you do, then just mixing up the variety more rather than worry about calcium is probably a simpler option.
I expect it is more likely a variety of factors, for example my local water has 125mg/l of calcium in the water. Drink 500ml and that's the same as a portion of broccoli. Reduce your veg and your bun will drink more water to compensate.
It sounds like your bun already has a very good diet, which also makes me think that some individual bunnies are more prone rather than diet being the only factor.
I expect it is more likely a variety of factors, for example my local water has 125mg/l of calcium in the water. Drink 500ml and that's the same as a portion of broccoli. Reduce your veg and your bun will drink more water to compensate.
It sounds like your bun already has a very good diet, which also makes me think that some individual bunnies are more prone rather than diet being the only factor.
Really interesting thread, Helen.
Sue only has half a kidney working and I thought I was providing her with a low calcium diet but have been giving spring greens daily I don't know what list I read but I thought it was OK. I avoid broccoli and kale as I thought they were high.
She now has a bottle and a bowl but my tap water is really hard. Maybe I should be using bottled water for her?
I did look at the calcium levels of pellets once and found that the Excel Mature with Cranberries (which I believe is good for renal buns) is marginally higher in calcium than the SS I usually feed.
I find it difficult getting the balance right as every extra day with Sue is a bonus. She is allowed a small amount of wholemeal bread and oats and carrots as she adores these and I am trying to keep her weight up as she is so thin, despite eating more than any of my other buns. She does eat a lot of hay too and, so far, has no problems with her teeth.
My vet has said he believes her problems stem from a poor diet in her formative years. She was four when I rehomed her from BARC so sadly I think a lot of the damage was done before she went to rescue.
Am now going to re-think daily spring greens - and the dandelion and leaves she gets when I can forage some.
Sue only has half a kidney working and I thought I was providing her with a low calcium diet but have been giving spring greens daily
I don't know what list I read but I thought it was OK. I avoid broccoli and kale as I thought they were high.She now has a bottle and a bowl but my tap water is really hard. Maybe I should be using bottled water for her?
I did look at the calcium levels of pellets once and found that the Excel Mature with Cranberries (which I believe is good for renal buns) is marginally higher in calcium than the SS I usually feed.
I find it difficult getting the balance right as every extra day with Sue is a bonus. She is allowed a small amount of wholemeal bread and oats and carrots as she adores these and I am trying to keep her weight up as she is so thin, despite eating more than any of my other buns. She does eat a lot of hay too and, so far, has no problems with her teeth.
My vet has said he believes her problems stem from a poor diet in her formative years. She was four when I rehomed her from BARC so sadly I think a lot of the damage was done before she went to rescue.
Am now going to re-think daily spring greens
- and the dandelion and leaves she gets when I can forage some.
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Bunny Buddy
Wise Old Thumper
Am now going to re-think daily spring greens
"Feed large amounts of fresh leafy greens.Fresh leafy greens are not only an excellent source of fluid for the rabbit (to keep the urine dilute) but also contain a variety of nutrients (including vitamin C) and fiber (for the digestive tract). Use dark leafy greens that are richer in nutrients than the pale green types. Feed a minimum of three different types of greens daily. Don䴜t stick to just one type. Examples of greens to feed include kale, mustard greens, dandelion greens, parsley, cilantro, chard, beet tops, carrot tops, raspberry leaves, broccoli leaves, and romaine lettuce.
As mentioned previously, although the calcium content of dark leafy greens is higher than some other foods, it is not all digestible and doesn't approach the level of commercial alfalfa-based pellets or alfalfa hay. NEVER attempt to remove all calcium sources from a rabbit's diet or problems with abnormally low calcium blood levels, such as bone, dental and muscle disease can occur. I do not consider feeding dark leafy greens a part of the problem causing urinary calculi, and, in fact, I consider these foods to be an essential part of a healthy rabbit diet. I do not restrict the type of leafy green based on calcium content"
DON'T rethink spring greens!! The above is quoted from the link above that Helen provided earlier in the thread. It's much the same as what Frances Harcourt-Brown told me for managing Artie's calcium intake/bladder sludge. I'll find the list she gave me but leafy greens are an important part of the best diet for bunnies with this problem.
Not sure about carrot tops though - they are definitely on my No-no list as very high in calcium.
Edit to add: This was the info FHB gave me:
FEEDING RABBITS WITH URINARY TRACT PROBLEMS
Rabbits with urinary tract problems such as kidney stones, bladder stones and 'sludgy urine' can benefit from a diet that contains sufficient, but not excessive amounts of calcium and is low in phosphorus. An increase in water intake and urine flow is beneficial to dilute excreted calcium in the kidneys and bladder.
INCLUDE:
Fresh Grass. This is the ideal food for rabbits, it has a high water content and has the correct amount of calcium and phosphorus.
Fresh Greens. These are mostly water and will therefore increase water intake which is beneficial. mostly, choose plants from the moderate and low calcium groups although the occasional plant from the high calcium group won't hurt.
High calcium plants: kale, broccoli, Chinese cabbage, watercress, parsley.
Moderate calcium plants: cabbage, spring cabbage, celery, lettuce, most culinary herbs and many garden weeds that rabbits enjoy such as raspberry, bramble leaves, leaves from fruit trees, ground elder, young dock leaves, groundsel, chickweed.
Low calcium foods: peas, beans, bread, banana, apples, carrots.
Wild plants such as dandelion, goosegrass, yarrow and plantain have diuretic properties ie they increase the flow of urine. Although these plants have a high calcium content they also have a high water content and are enjoyed by rabbits and are beneficial for rabbits with urinary tract problems.
Only offer SMALL amounts of a pelleted or extruded food especially if the rabbit is overweight. Dry foods have no water content.
Small quantities of fruit juice containing Vitamin C might be beneficial. Fruit juices are sweet and palatable and therefore increase water intake. Theoretically, they could also acidify the urine and decrease the amount of sediment that is formed. Cranberry juice is a traditional remedy for bladder problems but apple, pineapple or blackcurrant juice can be used instead.
AVOID:
Mixed cereal rations. Cereals, such as sweetcorn, wheat, oats and barley have a high phosphorus content that is potentially harmful.
(Green oat hay is alright as is oat/wheat grass as it’s just the seed part that is high in phosphorus).
Alfalfa in any form.
Vitamin or mineral supplements that go in the water or on the food.
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The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
Sorry Helen, did you mean to post that one, its just that it includes boiled, canned and pickled veggies?
Yes, this is a generalist list of calcium content in foods (including those for humans), not one that is specifically for bunnies
The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
Good post.
There is certainly conflicting information on various sites re calcium.
See this why I think there should be more research into the issues around calcium. It's not just dietary, however, so few people realise that the topic is something to bare in mind when choosing your rabbit's diet.
The Duchess
Wise Old Thumper
Another list from a Parrot site.
http://www.parrottalk.com/calcium-phosphorus-content.htm
I think it would just be useful for people who do not think about what they feed their bunnies to be a little more careful and make informed choices. Calcium is certainly something to watch out for and for people who can see sludgey wee or excessive white calcium build up in hutches or litter trays, should possibly get urine tests for their bunnies so that if an issues is seen early enough, the diet can be adjusted with help of the veterinarian.
http://www.parrottalk.com/calcium-phosphorus-content.htm
I think it would just be useful for people who do not think about what they feed their bunnies to be a little more careful and make informed choices. Calcium is certainly something to watch out for and for people who can see sludgey wee or excessive white calcium build up in hutches or litter trays, should possibly get urine tests for their bunnies so that if an issues is seen early enough, the diet can be adjusted with help of the veterinarian.
