Bonding question.... slow bonding of trio

[FredWinkler]

Hi,

I’ve been on this forum before, but lost my log in details and couldn’t get on, so reregistered. I’ve had some amazing help and advice on here before, so hopefully someone can help again.

I have a pair of bunnies who are nicely bonded, but my boy (Cookie) is a very, very playful little one, while my girl (Mopsy) is very lazy, she is more interested in grooming herself and having her beauty sleep than playing with Cookie. I spend as much time as I can with him, but he gets bored. So we decided to bring a third bunny into the mix, as even the vet was getting a bit worried as he seems to put on weight due to feeling bored. By the way, they have a ton of toys and enrichments etc! And no matter what we do, he wants to play with another bunny not us. So based on the vet’s recommendation and what we felt ourselves with him, we just adopted a new girl (she has no name yet). She’s around 6 months old, been spayed on 27 January and is healing well. She came to us Monday and we have her in the enclosure in their room.

Picture of our little boy and her checking each other out.
They do seem to want to get to each other, as he keeps laying in front of the enclosure and eating in front of her and she does the same, then she’s trying to find a way out and he’s trying to find a way in and then they lay in front of each other again. Our other girl, Mopsy, doesn’t seem too faced, she looked at her a few times, will eat and sleep outside the enclosure, but not ones tried getting in or anything like that.
Anyway, just wanted to give the backstory so far.

We were told by the rescue we got the little girl from, who normally bonds our bunnies (unfortunately she couldn’t this time), that we should start swapping them over from Wednesday onwards, after 48 hours, so we did that yesterday evening. Was so lovely seeing the little girl out, she was binking and flopping on her side when she wasn’t charging like crazy through the room, even played in the sandbox. While in the enclosure, both my other bunnies were just marking all with their send again, then Mopsy just flopped on her side to sleep while my boy was eating… obviously….
after two hours I swapped them back, all three gave me attitude as none of them were happy, and my boy was hanging around outside the enclosure again, while my older girl was just laying stretched out next to it.

I was told by the rescue lady I should then be putting them in a smaller enclosure in a neutral area for 20 minutes. And increase it over time. Which is pretty much what I've read too... and here is where I am in need of some help.
By the way, i am planning on keep them swapping for the rest of the week and try introducing them from Monday onwards, does that sound right?

So my plan is to start introducing them together from Monday, in the kitchen with is a neutral space for 20 minutes. the rescue did that that if they get on right away they could stay together for longer than 20 minutes. Are their signs to look out for, I know grooming is always a good way, but of course while I can stay in the kitchen for an hour or so, I couldn’t stay there over night for example. So just trying to work out what to do. Also if I am only doing 20 minutes the first time if they don’t really interact for example, would you suggest then doing slightly more the second time, or again only short and increase as they get used to each other more. I know normally when the rescue bonded them they did it by having them in a small enclosure together right away, but since I don’t have a proper neutral space, apart form the kitchen, I cant really do that, so was told to bond them slow doing it this way. but I am just so worried as I don’t want to get it wrong.

There is no way I would have this girl go back to the rescue so I have to make it work, and just hoping I could get some advice. There is so much online about it, but it just all confuses me more than it helps, so I figured the best thing I can do is message you and see what you say and see if there is something you could add to this to help me work out what to do more.

sorry this ended up longer than I planned, but I just want to get it right for them.
one last thing, when they seem bonded and groom each other in the neutral space, should I then put them in the enclosure only for a few days or could they have the full room right away?

 

[Omi]

I'm not surprised that you find the advice online confusing about this. I think this is probably because there is no absolute right and wrong way to approach bonding. Most people will have their own method, which has worked in the past, but with the same group of bunnies another method might have worked just as well. On this forum there will probably be different methods suggested

There are a few comments I would make. Firstly, your new girl hasn't long been spayed (about 2 weeks), so I would leave it at least another week before introducing them properly. I can't view your pic, but from what you've said I'm assuming that your new girl is in an enclosure, which is in the space of the other two, who are free-ranging? Swopping them over is a good strategy, as is swopping over their litter trays. Things you should be looking for atm are for all bunnies to be relaxed up against the wire of the enclosure for some time during the day. Bonding is a lot to do with trust. The bunnies all need to feel that the others are no threat to them. How bunnies react with a wire between them is not the same as without the wire though.

20 minutes for a date seems to be a very short time to me, as long as there is no aggression. Also, each time the bunnies get split up after a date and then get put back together again, they need to sort of start from the beginning again as far as heirarchy is concerned. So, I would always try to keep them together once they've been put together, as long as it is going OK. Obviously this needs to fit around your other commitments as well.

 

[FredWinkler]

Thank you for that.
I don’t know how to add a photo here. I used it from my Dropbox but doesn’t seem to work unfortunately. If there is a way to do it that doesn’t require a website please let me know as it may help.
You’re correct. They are all in one large room with the enclosure in it. It’s a permanent enclosure so has Perspex instead of wire. Normally it’s always open so my two could go in if they wanted. So she’s in there now. They seem to be all very relaxed no thumping or anything and everyone seems to be happy to eat next to each other and sleep.
By the way thanks re mentions the litter tray. I shall keep swapping them over too. This new girl has been perfect. She was not litter trained but asked the rescue for some of her toilet. Put it in the tray and she used the tray from the get go.
But yeah back to their behaviour. Cookie my boy and the new girl seem to be interacting the most. Always looking where each other is. Mopsy my older girl keeps looking and then lays next to the enclosure and sleeps.
Of course with regards to swapping them over I always have to wait till my partner is around as I have to take the girl out the enclosure and then put the other two in. Cookie my boy is always good and he doesn’t like being picked up but is just about ok. Mopsy my girl who was rescued after being handled badly after two years still doesn’t like to be picked up. Or even really getting close to her. So swapping over daily is causing her some distress as I need to try and “catch” her every time. Not much fun for her of course. Hence I hoped I could try the introduction next week as it’s been then over two weeks since my baby has been spayed.
Based on your experience how often would you say I should swap them over? Bearing in mind that it causes Mopsy stress each time so trying to make sure that doesn’t effect anything.
Also I will have to introduce them in the kitchen at first which means I can’t easily leave them alone there. Do you have any suggestion at all?
I’ve never bonded myself. The rescue always did it for all of mine. So this is very overwhelming.
Also as mentioned if you know a good way to send photos please let me know as it may help showing at times what I am taking about.
Thanks again.

 

[Omi]

It might just be me who can't view your Dropbox, but this is the forum tutorial on posting pics http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?475766-Tutorial-How-to-Post-Photos

As I said people will have done bonding using different methods. My rabbits live outside, which has its own problems regarding neutral spaces. Anyway, I had an existing Doe and a new Buck. I had them living in side-by-side enclosures for about 4 days. I didn't swop them, but did swop their litter. There seemed to be no aggression, so I just put the Buck into the Doe's existing territory (shed first) and stayed in the shed with them for a few hours. When all seemed OK, I came inside and watched on the camera. The next day I opened up the rest of the run accommodation. This is against normal advice, because Does are much more territorial, but the rabbits' characters are important too.

If you think that Mopsy is getting upset by being picked up and swopped around, I personally would stop it, or at least reduce the times you do it. One of the dangers in bonding a trio is that one rabbit will feel left out, sometimes causing the trial bond to fail, so you don't want Mopsy to be too upset by the process.

I think that the kitchen would be fine, but I think you should be prepared to leave them together for longer than 20 minutes unless there is aggression.

I think that bonding is overwhelming for anyone. I find it horribly stressful and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[FredWinkler]

Thanks, the photo is now working, woohoo, though I guess I should have reduced the size.

Just swapped the over again, and Mopsy was no bother, actually went into the enclosure easily. Cookie today is having a strop, but he gets stroppy super quick, but then gets much better really fast.
Just felt the little girl needed some space to run, the enclosure is large, but still they need running space.
When you mentioned a camera, do you have a good recommendation, since I wont be able to stay in the kitchen for too long, as I have to work too of course and sleep, would be good having something I could watch them on. How long would you say i should maybe try to keep them together when I introduce them? what signs should I watch out for to know?
yeah its amazing how much you take it for granted when someone normally bonds them for you. but she just couldnt do it this time and said she'd take the girl back if it doesnt work out, but i am in love with her already, she's not going anywhere, so it has to work out.
couldnt even imagine how difficult it must be in an outdoor space, but just shows how good you must be with them to make it work.

 

[Omi]

Photo is indeed working and aw Cookie is gorgeous I also like their bunny furniture. Is it Manor Pet Housing?

I don't have a good recommendation for a camera, as the ones we have are ones my OH has adapted for our computer set-up. Several forum members have cameras though, so you could make a new thread asking for recommendations, in the Housing section would be appropriate I guess. Other than that I know that zoobec has one, so you could send her a PM.

I would say keep them together as long as possible if things are going well and when you finish the session and split them up again, always try to do it following a period when they are OK, i.e. not after splitting them up after a period of aggression. When you put them together, also put some food in the middle of the area to encourage interaction, so some hay, a few pellets, some herbs etc. It's sometimes helpful to remove any litter tray, as one rabbit could become possessive of it. You should expect some chasing. Chasing is necessary although it can look scary. It's usually the Buck who chases the Doe(s). This is fine as long as the Does have some space to run away. The Does should run away and you should make sure that they don't get angry and aggressive. Initially and ideally for a few hours (if it goes on that long) you should be able to intervene to split up a fight. You will need something like gardening gloves to protect your hands. As time goes on, you will get a feeling of how it's progressing.

When the time comes, you can post on here and there will usually be someone who can offer advice along the way

 

[FredWinkler]

Glad it worked. Cookie came to us just over a year ago, when my other buck died. he is so special and so full of energy. i am sure he has rabbit ADHD... but wouldnt swap him for the world. hence needed another one as he does get on my girls nerves, i can tell. When he gets too much, she humps him and he stops annoying her, soon after he forgets again and keeps trying to play with her when she just wants to sleep. Like mentioned, she is lazy. out of all bunnies i had so far, she is by far the laziest one, she does play with him, but only ever on her terms, which is hardly ever :?
by the way, yep it is, MPH, shame they are gone now, they also did me a great sandbox, first one they did, worked with them to get it just right, and they liked it so much they ended up keeping it as part of their regular line.

So just finished swapping them over again, this time round, Mopsy was less fussed when she came back out and just came for food right away and is eating some greens now. And Cookie is running around checking where the new one has been. What is interesting, and its the first time, when Mopsy came out and the new one went in (need a name for her soon, cant keep calling her new one lol) she was by the door looking at her and following her around as the little one was at the other side of the panels. Didnt have a chasing vibe, more a curious vibe, if thats a good sign or not I dont know.
I wont do any swapping tomorrow to give them time to just relax all day and then do again on saturday. Then just need to work out when I can put them together.
by the way, if all looks really good when I do put them together, and there isnt any aggression i will keep them together for longer of course, but what would you say is the best length really, probably not good over night, but should i do a few hours then next day the same again, or always leave it a day in between. I know when the rescue bonded my others they were always together from the start and she just made the space bigger over time, of course i dont have that luxury until i can put them back in their room.

 

[FredWinkler]

I don't have a good recommendation for a camera, as the ones we have are ones my OH has adapted for our computer set-up. Several forum members have cameras though, so you could make a new thread asking for recommendations, in the Housing section would be appropriate I guess. Other than that I know that zoobec has one, so you could send her a PM.

By the way, thanks for that, will create a new post for that, thank you

 

[joey&boo]

Hello FredW I remember you. Real nice to see you back :wave: I haven't read your post properly yet but will make time soon

 

[tonibun]

I have done a lot of bonding but never a trio so can't really help you.Personally I like my pairs . What you don't really want is a situation where one is the odd one out but you might be lucky.

 

[FredWinkler]

Hello FredW I remember you. Real nice to see you back :wave: I haven't read your post properly yet but will make time soon

Lol oh my gosh. I couldn’t remember my username…. Geez I am so inventive with them. Aren’t I. Work really got crazy busy after I was on here before then other half had a breakdown leaving me having to make the money two people made all on my own. So anything extra like Facebook, forums etc had to go. Finally back on our feed a bit more again. Last time we talked I still had my little bunbuns and we just got fluffy. They were so close. Then September 2020 she died due to a lung condition. He was so lost. Hence we got Mopsy. But he died exactly a year later to the day and he even had his check up not long before that and was super healthy. But as if he knew. By the way he was fully into his routine. He knew when cleaning out day was and was waiting for his treat he always got that day. He sat there before I started and that was always the only day he did. You could also always know what time of the day it was based on where he was. So I wonder if he somehow knew it was a year. He was never the same after she was gone. I often wonder if he died of a broken heart.
Anyway. How are you?and yeah any tips you have are always welcome but either way great connecting with you again.

 

[FredWinkler]

I have done a lot of bonding but never a trio so can't really help you. Personally I like my pairs . What you don't really want is a situation where one is the odd one out but you might be lucky.

Thanks for that.
I didn’t really plan on getting another one. But did it to make sure cookie has a playmate as Mopsy isn’t affectionate or playful at all. Plus this little girl was in the rescue from birth and no one wanted her. So it has to work somehow

 

[FredWinkler]

Just wanted to give quick update on progress so far, if anyone is able to give some feedback
so did my second swap over yesterday, was actually much easier, all three seemed less bothered afterwards, first day got loads of tude from all three, this time nothing much.
what I noticed first day swapping them was that they were all three putting their scent on everything, spend the first hour or so chinning everything. and then after the swap did the same again in their original space. not for a whole hour but for a little while. yesterday when i swapped them over, as in Cookie and Mopsy in the enclosure and the new girl out in the room, i didnt see a single chinning going on during or after. And when they swapped back again, Mopsy was looking at the new girl, and followed her, and the new girl did the same, both on different sides of the enclosure of course, but looked very inquisitive rather than threatening as both then ended up eating straight after with each other in sight. Both girls also sleeping in close proximity of each other. Cookie just keeps destroying the room as he doesnt like the fact he cant just do everything exactly how he wants to, he likes going in the little hidey hole in the enclosure, which he cant right now, so he gives me attitude and just destroys stuff when he doesnt get his way, he's a bit spoiled. but he then just goes and lays on his other bed, watching the room.
today i noticed Mopsy laying with him on "his" bed and she was grooming him, for a LONG time. I mean she gives him usually maybe a lick or two and thats it, this one was long. She's never done that in all the time they were here, afterwards when the new little girl went to her litter tray to also eat some hay Mopsy came and looked at her, then ate some of her own greens.
Does that all sound positive so far, or is the fact that they started to seem more indifferent to her now a bad sign?

 

[Omi]

Just wanted to give quick update on progress so far, if anyone is able to give some feedback
so did my second swap over yesterday, was actually much easier, all three seemed less bothered afterwards, first day got loads of tude from all three, this time nothing much.
what I noticed first day swapping them was that they were all three putting their scent on everything, spend the first hour or so chinning everything. and then after the swap did the same again in their original space. not for a whole hour but for a little while. yesterday when i swapped them over, as in Cookie and Mopsy in the enclosure and the new girl out in the room, i didnt see a single chinning going on during or after. And when they swapped back again, Mopsy was looking at the new girl, and followed her, and the new girl did the same, both on different sides of the enclosure of course, but looked very inquisitive rather than threatening as both then ended up eating straight after with each other in sight. Both girls also sleeping in close proximity of each other. Cookie just keeps destroying the room as he doesnt like the fact he cant just do everything exactly how he wants to, he likes going in the little hidey hole in the enclosure, which he cant right now, so he gives me attitude and just destroys stuff when he doesnt get his way, he's a bit spoiled. but he then just goes and lays on his other bed, watching the room.
today i noticed Mopsy laying with him on "his" bed and she was grooming him, for a LONG time. I mean she gives him usually maybe a lick or two and thats it, this one was long. She's never done that in all the time they were here, afterwards when the new little girl went to her litter tray to also eat some hay Mopsy came and looked at her, then ate some of her own greens.
Does that all sound positive so far, or is the fact that they started to seem more indifferent to her now a bad sign?

Just a brief response from me, as I think it would be good to get other opinions as well. I think j&b is going to respond, which will be useful as she has bonded a trio with a buck and two does. I have experience only with pairs.

I think it's probable that the current relationship between Cookie and Mopsy will change with the arrival of another bunny. I think it's sounding positive so far in that you've seen no aggression from any of the bunnies. They sound as though they are starting to 'accept' the fact that there are now three bunnies. I wouldn't see that as indifference, but it will probably be a lot different once there are no barriers. It is also very early days.

 

[FredWinkler]

Just a brief response from me, as I think it would be good to get other opinions as well. I think j&b is going to respond, which will be useful as she has bonded a trio with a buck and two does. I have experience only with pairs.

I think it's probable that the current relationship between Cookie and Mopsy will change with the arrival of another bunny. I think it's sounding positive so far in that you've seen no aggression from any of the bunnies. They sound as though they are starting to 'accept' the fact that there are now three bunnies. I wouldn't see that as indifference, but it will probably be a lot different once there are no barriers. It is also very early days.

Thanks, that helps a lot making me feel like its on the right course. I wont swap them today as its late and they all seem sleepy. but took this earlier. Thats Mopsy (the grey one) she normally never sleeps there, she's usually much further away from the enclosure, usually sleeps during the day in one of her tunnels, but she slept there. so hopefully thats a good sign. fingers crossed.

please excuse the mess

 

[joey&boo]

Fluffy & Bunbuns Happy memories

Your boy sounds like my most recent addition:lol: I'd never had a REALLY energetic bun before him

I'm not so good at bonding, I break all the rules & get scared so break the bunnies up too much .

The 'ignoring' stage is definitely something I've seen in bonding! Its my favourite, pretending they don't care. Then its followed by showing they care! However until they are all put together you won't really know. i attempted a quad bond in 2019 with the trio you knew plus new boy. I noticed the bunnies got a lot of confidence from being behind perspex . mine were all in the lounge & the trio & new boy would get swapped either side for exercise purposes - i can't recall them being too fussed.

I can't do stuff like stay awake all night so I've never left them til I feel confident. With Boo & Eddy (last years bond) I kept them together for about 4-6 hours (highly / overly supervised)each evening til I had a long weekend to devote to not separating; by then I had more to be confident about.

Personally I wouldn't find any reassurance in using cameras for bonding as how quickly are you going to be able to take action on what you've seen.

Exciting times! i really hope it works out for you all

 

[FredWinkler]

Fluffy & Bunbuns Happy memories

Your boy sounds like my most recent addition:lol: I'd never had a REALLY energetic bun before him

I'm not so good at bonding, I break all the rules & get scared so break the bunnies up too much .

The 'ignoring' stage is definitely something I've seen in bonding! Its my favourite, pretending they don't care. Then its followed by showing they care! However until they are all put together you won't really know. i attempted a quad bond in 2019 with the trio you knew plus new boy. I noticed the bunnies got a lot of confidence from being behind perspex . mine were all in the lounge & the trio & new boy would get swapped either side for exercise purposes - i can't recall them being too fussed.

I can't do stuff like stay awake all night so I've never left them til I feel confident. With Boo & Eddy (last years bond) I kept them together for about 4-6 hours (highly / overly supervised)each evening til I had a long weekend to devote to not separating; by then I had more to be confident about.

Personally I wouldn't find any reassurance in using cameras for bonding as how quickly are you going to be able to take action on what you've seen.

Exciting times! i really hope it works out for you all

Hi. Yeah I do miss those two a lot. The first two years of Bunbuns life it was just us pretty much as she was in the room I worked from and I didn’t like leaving her. So hardly ever left the house. Was only when we got Fluffy I started leaving them alone. Was hard when she died and still miss her even two and a half years later.
Unfortunately because Mopsy in a way “replaced” Bunbuns I have always found it harder to bond with her myself. Also doesn’t help that she is very antisocial so it took about two years for her to let me stroke her while eating. Don’t even dare trying to touch her otherwise
Have you had that before that you found it harder to bond with a bun yourself. Don’t get me wrong I do love her but there isn’t a real closeness like there has been with the others. Maybe it’s just because I had to get her fast as Fluffy was lonely and never had the chance to grief bunbuns before “replacing” her.
Anyway better not go down that route again

As for the hyper bunny. It’s weird. Right. He’s the only one I’ve seen before whos like that too and even the rescue said he’s super hyper. Guess just like with humans. They can be.
How is yours getting in now?

Ob as for the cameras. Only thinking for two reason. One for when I need to go to toilet. Though my partner should be able to watch them. But mainly to have for feedback from the rescue etc to record it and to show to her bits I may want her opinion on. Also for later when I feel confident enough that they could be left so I can still watch them while in the room next door while working. And for when they go back in their room proper (in the enclosure first) to make sure I can watch them there again.

Going to try and swap them over again in a bit then tomorrow first day putting them together. Checked with the rescue when I should and she suggested to try tomorrow. So guess will be able to get some idea then. Just hope the space is right for them. Some say needs to be really small. Others say enough for them to have things to keep busy in (RWAF says tunnels and stuff) which would indicate not super small. So went for a foldable pen that’s around 125cm each side. Like an octagonal shape. So time will tell.

Thanks for your feedback and wanna hear more about your lot too again

 

[Pets mum]

Good luck with the bonding, from what I've read, everything looks good so far. Lovely bunnies and great setup

 

[FredWinkler]

Good luck with the bonding, from what I've read, everything looks good so far. Lovely bunnies and great setup

Thank you. It’s super nerve-wracking but hopefully be well worth it. Tomorrow will sure be a challenging day. But let’s hope for the best.

 

[Omi]

Good luck for tomorrow. I hope it goes well. In my view the space needs to be big enough for the Does to be able to run away if chased and it sounds like it will be