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Problem cheek teeth.

Kim_perkins

Kim_perkins

Mama Doe
Hello all.

Just after some advice on my gorgeous little bunny.
She's a year and a half old .
Sad as it Is she is the most friendliest little thing and everyone loves her.
Any way, she is a year and a half old has been spayed and lives a life of luxury.
She has unlimited Timothy hay, grass when weather is not bad and plenty of greens.
I feed her burgess pellets and not muesli.

She had nasty spurs in November and she stopped eating.
Had her operated on and now they're back.
She's in today to have them filed down.
I just want your advice.

My mum has told me to have her put down as I currently have a baby on the way
And the stress of sorting her out and the financial implications would be too much.
For me, that's not an option. She is my responsibility and she does not go without
Care every day so just no.

What options are available to Me? The spurs actually returned bang on 4 weeks after the operation
I have just been controlling her pain and giving her epi something for gut stimulation and lots of exercise.

Has any one had this problem and been able to do something about it? Or is it an ongoing problem she will always have.

I can't stress enough she is the most cutest rabbit in the world she jumps up on my lap comes to her name and is so willing to any thing I do with her.

I don't want to have to part with her just yet but I fear she will just suffer?

When the teeth are fine she is normal very happy and exciteable.
I have read molar teeth can be removed but is very risky and expensive? Would any one suggest this?

Thanks in advance!
 
Hello

Unfortunately some Rabbits will develop dental problems despite being fed a good hay based diet. Breeds often effected are Lops, Netherland Dwarfs and Lionheads.

Management of Dental Disease can be complex and it is most definitely an advantage to have a Vet with vast experience in treating Rabbits with the condition. Good management from the outset can have a significant impact on the rate of progression of the problem

This link provides comprehensive information about Rabbit Dental problems :

http://www.manorvets.co.uk/ckfinder/userfiles/files/dental dz(1).pdf
 
First of all, well done for not listening to your mum's advice. Animals shouldn't be put down just becaus they have a (perfectly manageable) medical condition. What breed is she?

There are two things you can do, first of all you will learn to recognise the signs of the spurs being back and then get her in for a dental straight away - this means that you will get the spurs sorted before they have a chance to cause damage to the mouth and ulcers etc which will put her in pain and make eating more difficult. High doses of pain relief is also essential so that she can start eating properly ASAP after a dental, and gut stimulants are a very good idea - is it emeprid you are giving?

The reason it is important to get her eating and reduce damage to the mouth and pain is that her teeth need to be worn down, to try to slow the developing of her spurs. You should ask your vet whether the teeth/jaw are misaligned which is causing them to wear unevenly, or whether she is just not grinding them down enough. Both can be helped, the latter can be entirely cured, by a good diet.

The most important part of a rabbit's diet is hay and they need to be eating at least a pile the size of their bodies every day, but many rabbits don't. How much would you say your bun eats? What brand of Timothy hay do you use?

Also, what else do you feed her and what amounts of each?

And finally, could you please take a picture of her poo next to a coin for scale?
 
Hi and welcome to RU!

Great post from Jane as usual :thumb: I also wouldn't jump into PTS yet, as they can be treated but the 'settling down into a routine' part (if you know what I mean) is often the worst. How is your vet with her? It is important to have a rabbit who is experienced and knowledgeable with rabbits, or as we call them, 'rabbit savvy' vets. If you feel that your vet isn't the best then I'd definitely recommend changing as if you're going to sort this out then you really need a good vet. :wave:
 
Ah thank you. I'm not actually sure what breed she is I saw her and felt so bad when she was in pets at home I had to take her. I believe she's a Dutch cross. How do I attach pictures? Sorry I'm useless on here and using my mobile!

She's white and blue eyes with some silvery grey patches, very beautiful :)

She has unlimited hay but she doesn't tend to eat it I must admit.
She has the Timothy hay brand king alfalfa double compressed bale. She doesn't tend to eat that much either which I think may be the problem.

She usually eats a whole bowl of pellets a day, I'm thinking through my research to limit this? And she will usually clean out her greens. Spinach cauliflower leaves an odd carrot , she does like her greens.
When I can get a picture of her poo I will, it is a lot smaller then it should be at he moment due to her not eating as much.
She also has excel fibre sticks and a big cube thing also made by excel. (Vet recommended) very fibrous and tough.

Yes emeprid and loxicom for pain relief - equivalent of a 5kg dog doseage.
I tend to put a good handful of greens in her hutch every day and give her grass as well which of course she loves.
Sadly we have lots of foxes and she was bitten by one last year so she goes out for a a few hours at the weekend and during the week when I work she doesn't get to go in the garden.
She does how ever have a good couple if hours out around the house with me and I pick her some grass to feed.
My vets are very good with her. They have said about molar teeth being removed but won't do that themselves as they're not happy to. I was advised it's probably genetics as to why she is like this, however I forgot to mention right before she has the spur problem she gets one very weepy eye?
 
Maybe try her with some different kinds of hay to see if the variety encourages her to eat more. You could also try adding some dried herbs to make it more appealing
 
Kim_perkins said:
Ah thank you. I'm not actually sure what breed she is I saw her and felt so bad when she was in pets at home I had to take her. I believe she's a Dutch cross. How do I attach pictures? Sorry I'm useless on here and using my mobile!

She's white and blue eyes with some silvery grey patches, very beautiful :)

She has unlimited hay but she doesn't tend to eat it I must admit.
She has the Timothy hay brand king alfalfa double compressed bale. She doesn't tend to eat that much either which I think may be the problem.

She usually eats a whole bowl of pellets a day, I'm thinking through my research to limit this? And she will usually clean out her greens. Spinach cauliflower leaves an odd carrot , she does like her greens.
When I can get a picture of her poo I will, it is a lot smaller then it should be at he moment due to her not eating as much.
She also has excel fibre sticks and a big cube thing also made by excel. (Vet recommended) very fibrous and tough.

Yes emeprid and loxicom for pain relief - equivalent of a 5kg dog doseage.
I tend to put a good handful of greens in her hutch every day and give her grass as well which of course she loves.
Sadly we have lots of foxes and she was bitten by one last year so she goes out for a a few hours at the weekend and during the week when I work she doesn't get to go in the garden.
She does how ever have a good couple if hours out around the house with me and I pick her some grass to feed.
My vets are very good with her. They have said about molar teeth being removed but won't do that themselves as they're not happy to. I was advised it's probably genetics as to why she is like this, however I forgot to mention right before she has the spur problem she gets one very weepy eye?
Click to expand...

That is a common occurrence when the tooth *roots* are also a problem. The roots elongate and press on the nasolacrimal duct (tear duct) causing the runny eye(s).

I would try to cut her pellets right down. A bowlful/day is about 4 times too much for a Dutch X Rabbit. Obviously you will need to make sure that she will eat hay when you reduce the pellets. Some Rabbits will stubbornly refuse to do so if they have become accustomed to filling up on pellets and Veg. As others have suggested trying her on lots of different hays may lead to you finding ones she particularly likes

There is a great range to choose from here : http://www.thehayexperts.co.uk/edibles/hay-grasses.html

A big favourite for my Rabbits is this :

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/snacks_supplements/natural_plant_snacks/herbs/301187


I would cut out the carrots, except for the green carrot tops. The actual carrots contain a lot of sugar which will do her teeth and tum no favours.

Grass is excellent for teeth, even if it has to be just that which you hand pick.

Dried grass is another option

http://www.thehayexperts.co.uk/readigrass.html
 
see blue for reply :)

Kim_perkins said:
Ah thank you. I'm not actually sure what breed she is I saw her and felt so bad when she was in pets at home I had to take her. I believe she's a Dutch cross. How do I attach pictures? Sorry I'm useless on here and using my mobile!
Here's a thread on how to post pics: http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?136183-Tutorial-How-to-Post-Photos

She's white and blue eyes with some silvery grey patches, very beautiful :)

She has unlimited hay but she doesn't tend to eat it I must admit.
She has the Timothy hay brand king alfalfa double compressed bale. She doesn't tend to eat that much either which I think may be the problem.
You're right in thinking that the lack of hay in her diet will be contributing to the problem, I'm surprised your vet hasn't discussed diet with you, that is usually the first thing a rabbit-savvy vet will ask you about when a rabbit has dental problems. I would try some other hays and grasses, also different brands taste different to them - this is a good place to start:
http://www.thehayexperts.co.uk/edibles/hay-grasses.html?hay_type=11
I'd also try normal baled hay, which is usually fresher than bagged hay, and try these sites which have some special baled hays (if you contact them most will send you a sample for postage costs).
http://www.hayforpets.co.uk/products.html
http://www.timothyhay.co.uk/
http://www.willowwarren.co.uk/trh_ours.asp

She usually eats a whole bowl of pellets a day, I'm thinking through my research to limit this? And she will usually clean out her greens. Spinach cauliflower leaves an odd carrot , she does like her greens.
When I can get a picture of her poo I will, it is a lot smaller then it should be at he moment due to her not eating as much.
She also has excel fibre sticks and a big cube thing also made by excel. (Vet recommended) very fibrous and tough.
If she is filling up on other food, she won't want to eat hay as much, so I would start to slowly reduce her pellets. Not too quickly as you don't want to get into a position where she is eating hardly any food at all, as that will cause gut problems. As you reduce the pellets she should start to eat a bit more hay.

I would keep feeding her greens but stop/limit the carrot. I would also stop normal treats if you feed them and replace with healthy high-fibre alternatives like fresh/dried herbs, greens and forage (Woodlands have some in their range, like blackcurrent leaves). The name of the game is to make all food high-fibre and tooth-wearing.

The excel cubes I don't personally like, as they are designed as a complete food and have pellets in them, so controlling the amount of pellets is hard. But if she is eating the hay that makes up the bulk of them, they will be doing her some good. I would try her with plain hay cookies and if she likes them then switch to these, but if not they are better than nothing.

Yes emeprid and loxicom for pain relief - equivalent of a 5kg dog doseage.
How much does she weigh and what dose of metaclopramide does she have and how often?
I tend to put a good handful of greens in her hutch every day and give her grass as well which of course she loves.
Sadly we have lots of foxes and she was bitten by one last year so she goes out for a a few hours at the weekend and during the week when I work she doesn't get to go in the garden.
She does how ever have a good couple if hours out around the house with me and I pick her some grass to feed.
If she will eat it, try to supply her with lots of grass, it is just as good as hay for teeth. If she lives outside, she really needs a secure (fox proof) run to get some exercise and some grass. This will help her general health, dental health and the exercise will help her gut too which will encourage her to eat more.
It would be worth finding a run that you can attach to her hutch (either by a runaround tunnel or one that is just the right size to attach) so that she has shelter from the rain and can run back to her hutch if she sees a fox.
Alternatively, you could have her as a housebunny, which would probably be less stressful if you are worried about foxes.
My vets are very good with her. They have said about molar teeth being removed but won't do that themselves as they're not happy to. I was advised it's probably genetics as to why she is like this, however I forgot to mention right before she has the spur problem she gets one very weepy eye?
This could indicate tooth roots overgrowing. It could also just be pain, or the start of snuffles - a respiratory infection that rabbits can suffer from, particularly when their immune system is compromised (pain, stress etc). Dental buns are prone to it, so keep an eye out. It is also worth noting that bringing an outdoor rabbit inside in winter can be a big temperature difference, which can trigger snuffles, so avoid bringing her into heated rooms if possible.
It is rare to have molars removed but it can be done by specialists, the risk is then that the other teeth don't have teeth to grind against and then they can overgrow, so it is not done unless necessary.
Click to expand...
 
nessar said:
see blue for reply :)
Click to expand...

Okay so the bunny is back home. I've just collected her.
They have told me her teeth are very poorly aligned.

What can I do for this??
She's on antibiotics as she has a nasty ulcer on her tongue but apart from that she's a little dopey but glad she's home.
 
Kim_perkins said:
Okay so the bunny is back home. I've just collected her.
They have told me her teeth are very poorly aligned.

What can I do for this??
She's on antibiotics as she has a nasty ulcer on her tongue but apart from that she's a little dopey but glad she's home.
Click to expand...

It sounds as though she has a congenital malocclusion which means that even with a good hay based diet ongoing Dentals will be needed. That said, if you can alter her diet and get her to eat a lot more hay the frequency of the Dentals could be reduced.

Did the Vet also give you pain relief to administer for a few days until the ulcer heals ? Ulcers are very painful and she wont eat if she is in pain.
 
Jack's-Jane said:
It sounds as though she has a congenital malocclusion which means that even with a good hay based diet ongoing Dentals will be needed. That said, if you can alter her diet and get her to eat a lot more hay the frequency of the Dentals could be reduced.

Did the Vet also give you pain relief to administer for a few days until the ulcer heals ? Ulcers are very painful and she wont eat if she is in pain.
Click to expand...

They said it would be a case of either me giving in and having her put down or candy giving in to the anaesthetic..
:( not what I wanted to hear as I love my little bunny dearly.

I have the loxicom (sp) and baytril which is an antibiotic as the ulcer is quite nasty. It's her left side which is worse.
 
Kim_perkins said:
They said it would be a case of either me giving in and having her put down or candy giving in to the anaesthetic..
:( not what I wanted to hear as I love my little bunny dearly.

I have the loxicom (sp) and baytril which is an antibiotic as the ulcer is quite nasty. It's her left side which is worse.
Click to expand...

That's not strictly true. She will have these problems for life, but with a good and strict diet you may be able to reduce the frequency of the dentals. Yes, dying under anesthetic is a risk, but it's not a certainty and many dental buns live normal-length lives, as long as they get the right treatment and have a decent vet. Some vets also have the expertise to not just file off the spurs, but to going down a bit further and reshape the teeth, which can help lengthen the time between dentals.

I wouldn't give up- as long as you are vigilant and can learn to recognise symptoms of needing a dental early, you should be able to get her the dental before things like ulcers develop in future. It's a learning curve but as you get to know her better you'll be able to spot when she is in pain easier. Many buns also fall into a routine, so their owners know they need to go in every 8 weeks for example, which makes it easier to plan the dentals.

I would start with changing her diet, then once that is done and you have a better idea of what the pattern is, I would get a referral to a specialist and discuss options.

Many of us on here have dental bunnies so you aren't alone. I'm sorry the vet made it sound a bit hopeless, because dental problems are manageable and it is not a death-sentence.
 
nessar said:
That's not strictly true. She will have these problems for life, but with a good and strict diet you may be able to reduce the frequency of the dentals. Yes, dying under anesthetic is a risk, but it's not a certainty and many dental buns live normal-length lives, as long as they get the right treatment and have a decent vet. Some vets also have the expertise to not just file off the spurs, but to going down a bit further and reshape the teeth, which can help lengthen the time between dentals.

I wouldn't give up- as long as you are vigilant and can learn to recognise symptoms of needing a dental early, you should be able to get her the dental before things like ulcers develop in future. It's a learning curve but as you get to know her better you'll be able to spot when she is in pain easier. Many buns also fall into a routine, so their owners know they need to go in every 8 weeks for example, which makes it easier to plan the dentals.

I would start with changing her diet, then once that is done and you have a better idea of what the pattern is, I would get a referral to a specialist and discuss options.

Many of us on here have dental bunnies so you aren't alone. I'm sorry the vet made it sound a bit hopeless, because dental problems are manageable and it is not a death-sentence.
Click to expand...
Thank you :)
Well I think I will try changing her diet and see how we go.

I know the signs so I will keep my fingers crossed she goes longer this time and hope for the best.
 
Please dont give up..... I have two dental bunnies here.... one of them - Holly has the worst aligned teeth my vet has seen :( No amount of hay will improve her..... but she has regular dentals (about 5 to 7 weeks apart :( ) and inbetween she is the happiest bunny ever... I have even come to an arrangement with my vet for a discount on the dentals as she is so regular..... something you may be able to arrange too if need be...
Sending lots of vibes and hope your situation isnt as bad as mine xx
 
Regular dentals will sort this - and tbh I would not have expected a good vet to suggest that it is quite likely she may die during these anaesthetics

Did they suggest doing more extensive dental work than just burring off the spurs? An excellent rabbit vet can do wonders even with congenital dental issues. (I have several buns with these).

Removal is an option but is tricky if there are several teeth with the issue.

Were x rays done to check on teeth root growths?

You may need to explore a rabbit specialist vet - where abouts are you?
 
You've been given some excellent advice here so far, but just wanted to say that I have a bunny with absolutely dreadful teeth. She is happy, clever and most of the time full of energy and life (she's the little white one in my signature) but when she needs a dental I can tell as her behaviour changes. As you get to know your bunny better (and learn what you're looking for) it'll be easier for you to spot the signs as to when she's ready for a dental. :thumb: don't give up on her!
 
parsnipbun said:
Regular dentals will sort this - and tbh I would not have expected a good vet to suggest that it is quite likely she may die during these anaesthetics

Did they suggest doing more extensive dental work than just burring off the spurs? An excellent rabbit vet can do wonders even with congenital dental issues. (I have several buns with these).

Removal is an option but is tricky if there are several teeth with the issue.

Were x rays done to check on teeth root growths?

You may need to explore a rabbit specialist vet - where abouts are you?
Click to expand...

I have been trying to find a rabbit specialist. I've no hesitation in paying for one to take a closer look at her and what ever treatment is needed, the vets have told me she other wise a very happy bunny, and she is. Very alert, lively and very affection she just loves human interaction and in between her dentals she is very happy, no bother.

I'm based in Essex - any ideas any one?

The thing i find odd, is she has gone a year and half fine, no bother and then last month it comes on?
it was dead on 4 weeks and she needed the op again, i sadly prolonged this and am kicking myself because now she has an awful ulcer, only because my vet told me due to her having a ''sticky bum'' as well, it may be gut related.... even though i said it was her teeth, i was sent away with more drugs until enough was enough sand she stopped eating all together.

I'm answering my own questions here, i need to find a rabbit savvy vet for my beloved bunny xx

My vets are good, but i don't think they are rabbit Savvy, she
 
Hope you find a specialist.... but dont beat yourself up about missing any signs
These bunnies can hide things so well..... I go to bed one night seeing Holly gobbling up her supper..... only to get up next morning having her refusing her breakfast.... and end up straight at the vets for a dental :( only other sign i ever get from her is a dirty bottom overnight :(
 
I see you are Essex - as a one-off can you get a referral to Iain Cope at Cambridge Veterinary Group 01223 249331

he is an exotics specialist and does dental specialist work - including work on my little Coltsfoot.

Ask to talk to him in advance so you can get the right sort of appt - he has his own dental treatment 'bed' so can do almost immediate dental examinations -

ask him to do a thorough assessment - I would suggest time it for say another 3 weeks so he can see whats growing.

he will probably want to do an x ray as well.


Its the south side of Cambridge so easy off the M11.
 
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