Urine Problems

I'm taking Minstrel to the vets on Monday as her bad toilet habits are just getting worse

She's been not using her litter tray properly for over nine months now. But she will wee everywhere and anywhere and it absolutely stinks. The past few weeks I've noticed her back end is badly stained and matted and often wet. She has always been very clean and matt free in this area despite being half angora.

I was grooming her Tueday night and in the end I had to give up as I'm sure she's got urine scald around her legs and she would not sit still to let me brush her. The skin is very red so we bathed her in a little warm water, which she didn't seem to mind. I didn't want to use any soap :?

We've now brought them inside, but they're having to spend the majority of their time in their travel hutch with a towel in the base to absorb the accidents. I'm changing it every other day as it was soaked this morning.

I want to try bathing her again - any advice? Could I use sudocrem on the scalds?

Could you get her to the Vet before Monday ?

She is very likely to have urine scald which will be excruciatingly painful

She is likely to need her fur clipping from all around her back end.

Her towel bedding should really be changed daily at the very least.

What diagnostics and treatment has she had so far ?

Hi Jane, thanks for replying. I'm sorry I haven't got back to you sooner, but I've been at work and only just got in. I've got funny shifts tomorrow too which is why I can't get to the vets before monday either

Back in January when we were at the vets for myxi jabs, I mentioned her irregular weeing patterns and Minstrel took that moment to tiddle on the table :roll:, but the vet took a sample and checked it straight away - nothing amiss. She also felt her bladder for stones. All was fine.

Then we had the really bad weather in February so kept them in in our chilly downstairs hall (which they loved), but I would be cleaning up after Minstrel every few hours and then it started to get really smelly, so they had to go back out as soon as it was warm enough.

Our next trip to the vets was in July for their myxi booster and we saw the senior vet who is also the rabbit specialist. Again I mentioned the irregular urinating when summing up her health. The vet seemed a little concerned by the irregularity as opposed to just choosing another spot over the litter tray, but as she was, and still is, not showing any other symptoms it was decided to just leave her for now.

Even now, she was the first one out of the cage when I opened it and is now happily bombling up and down the hall (admittedly tiddling on the floor within a few seconds :roll. She's scoffed her pellets and is looking bright and alert.

That's why I'm so confused! Other than her dirty bum and the urinating which has been going on for months, you wouldn't think there was anything wrong :? I don't know what I'll do if the vets don't draw any conclusions or make any suggestions on Monday????

I did notice this morning one of her little puddles had a kind of skin on it???? Is that excess calcium?

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Hope it explains things a bit for you

mrs munkee said:

Hi Jane, thanks for replying. I'm sorry I haven't got back to you sooner, but I've been at work and only just got in. I've got funny shifts tomorrow too which is why I can't get to the vets before monday either

Back in January when we were at the vets for myxi jabs, I mentioned her irregular weeing patterns and Minstrel took that moment to tiddle on the table :roll:, but the vet took a sample and checked it straight away - nothing amiss. She also felt her bladder for stones. All was fine.

Then we had the really bad weather in February so kept them in in our chilly downstairs hall (which they loved), but I would be cleaning up after Minstrel every few hours and then it started to get really smelly, so they had to go back out as soon as it was warm enough.

Our next trip to the vets was in July for their myxi booster and we saw the senior vet who is also the rabbit specialist. Again I mentioned the irregular urinating when summing up her health. The vet seemed a little concerned by the irregularity as opposed to just choosing another spot over the litter tray, but as she was, and still is, not showing any other symptoms it was decided to just leave her for now.

Even now, she was the first one out of the cage when I opened it and is now happily bombling up and down the hall (admittedly tiddling on the floor within a few seconds :roll. She's scoffed her pellets and is looking bright and alert.

That's why I'm so confused! Other than her dirty bum and the urinating which has been going on for months, you wouldn't think there was anything wrong :? I don't know what I'll do if the vets don't draw any conclusions or make any suggestions on Monday????

I did notice this morning one of her little puddles had a kind of skin on it???? Is that excess calcium?

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Hope it explains things a bit for you

Click to expand...

Yes, most probably.

So she had not had any treatment at all since July ?

Well at least that's an obvious symptom. I know that's not the nicest thing to say, but the vets have not had anything to go on except her irregularity. Urine tests didn't show anything, and like I said they couldn't feel anything and she wasn't showing any other symptoms.

Poor critter, I feel awful I wish they could speak sometimes

back from vets

ok, we're back from the vets. Mixed reaction really :?

The vet tested two samples - one from the newspaper in the carrier and a fresh one from on the table. The one from the nespaper showed microscopic traces of blood, but the fresh sample was all fine :? pH 7

Mentioned the calcium and the vet felt her bladder, but no stones or anything :?

She's been given a course of baytril to see if that gives any improvement.

Discussed bedding and diet, but she wasn't concerned by what we were feeding her. Suggested using puppy training pads in the hutch rather than towels and setting up other litter trays. She said Minstrel's skin wasn't scalded and it definately doesn't look as red as it did last Tuesday, but I can use a small amount of sudocrem and bathe her with hibiscrub. They'll be staying inside for the time being. I'm relieved she's not been out in all this awful wet weather we've had.

If there's no improvement and it does appear to be incontinence the vet suggested we can use a drug as a last resort that's used to treat incontinence in dogs (propynol i think?????)

When we nipped into the petshop to get pads we noticed the excel pellets for mature bunnies has cranberry in to maintain a healthy urinary tract. Would it be worth changing them onto these or introducing cranberry into their diet????

Any more advice would be much appreciated, thanks

Well I syringed her the antibiotics this morning. First time I've ever had to to do that, but I managed it and I'm now the most unpopular bunny mum in the world :roll: Even Cadbury is grumpy this morning!

The puppy pads are brilliant if a bit on the expensive side, although it's got to be cheaper than washing towels every day and are much more absorbant.

I'm going to trim her back end tonight - if she'll let me anywhere near her :roll:

Just to update, we've almost finished the weeks course of antibiotics.

To be honest, I don't really think there's been any improvement. Half of me wasn't really expecting there to be .

Sometimes during the week, there has been a trail of urine leading to the litter tray so she knows where she's supposed to go and I did observe her actually using it last night, although I couldn't be sure if it was for poops or wees. This morning she ran upto the litter tray and sat and looked at it for a bit and then ran off again. :?

I'll take her back to the vets next week and see what they suggest. Should I ask for a blood test? Is it likely to just be incontinence?

I think my vet would probably do x-rays to check for stones/sludge.

There's also a test where they can check for sludge by spinning the urine sample (or something like that, not sure about the technicalities)

In humans, cranberry and vitamin C are supposed to be good for bladder problems. There's no evindence AFAIK that it helps rabbits in the same way, but it can't hurt to try it. Health food shops do canberry and vit C capsules which you can open up and sprinkle on food.

Would it be Propalin that your vet suggested?:

http://www.vetstreamcanis.co.uk/Drugs/datasht/v56c2210.htm

I have had some success with using a combination of Propalin and baytril for urinary incontinence, but this was in a rabbit with no excess calcium issues.

Yes, that's it! I'm not sure about using it though.....

Is it likely to be stones given the length of time she's had this problem and she's been felt for stones twice in that period???

Could excess calcium cause such irratic urine patterns? I should really get her calcium intake down anyway, but the majority of green veg has a high calcium content so I'm not sure how best to go about it :?

Just popped in to give some sympathy as my Sooty has had similar problems this year...

She and Muppet are litter trained house rabbits and up until end of July Sooty wasnt spayed. I had noticed that she had started to occasionally wee in their bed at night - not every night but say 2 or 3 times a week, just one or two wet patches. She had no other symptoms and seemed fine in every way so, even when it increased to 4 or 5 nights, I assumed it was behavioural and waited to see if spaying would help.

She was spayed at the end of July and shortly afterwards the weeing got much worse - the bedding would be soaked day and night. (They have profleece which thankfully wicks the moisture to the bottom layer - where I put puppy training pads to protect the floor - so they werent wet themselves.) She also suddenly lost a lot of weight: from 1.3kg to 1kg in a fortnight, and seemed really hungry at all time (despite eating well).

Nothing showed up in her blood tests or the small urine sample that the vets managed to take. She had a day 10 course of antibiotics by injection at this point which made a huge difference (thank goodness) and I fed her up to get her back to her normal weight.

That was end July/mid August. She was still wee-ing in the bed occasionally - say once at night, once in the day, occasionally totally dry. Not quite 'right' but at least much better. She and Muppet have just spent a week in boarding whilst I was on holiday and - fingers crossed/touch wood etc - has been completely dry since they got home (8 days and counting...). I dont know why that tipped the balance. Maybe she just needed a holiday too

So anyway profleece and puppy training pads are great for bedding. (I also used puppy training pads to line the litter tray.) Profleece is much quicker to dry than towels too. (I dont have a dryer.)

In terms of next steps - another blood test might show if she still has an infection? And a few more days of antibiotics to kick it into touch? If she seems to be straining when wee-ing, could that be cystitis?

Just found my own thread about Sooty http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/showthread.php?t=240648 and realised I'd forgotten a couple of things.

She also started drinking a lot more water than usual when she was losing weight. As well as the baytril injections she had a 28 day course of panacur.

Thanks for replying muppet

She hasn't had any blood tests so far, but from reading other threads on here, blood tests generally appear to be inconclusive. If it is calcium causing the problem, bloods generally tend to show high levels of calcium anyway, I understand :?

I feel it might be more enlightening to ask for x-rays to check her kidneys. I did a search for posts on excess calcium and came across bunnies who had calcified kidneys . She doesn't appear to be in discomfort when weeing, but as this has been going on for so long I wonder if there could be a build up of calcium internally :?

Like Sooty, it just started with the odd accident and lots of scatter poos here and there and it gradually got worse and worse. I've mentioned it to the vets previously, but as she was bright, lively and showing no other signs of infection, it was decided not to 'treat' the problem.

This evening will be her last dose of baytril, so that's 6 days including the injection she had last monday.

An x-ray would also show the positioning of the bladder as I have had rabbits in the past who's bladders have been positioned wrongly which has put pressure on them causing them to continually empty. Another rabbit had arthritis of the spine which also put pressure on the bladder with the same effect.

My vets have rung the manufacturers of propalin who said it was unlikely to work on rabbits as the cause on incontinence in bunnies is usually very different to those in cats or dogs. But at the same time it wouldn;t do them any harm if we wanted to try it.

I haven't read the whole thread so not sure whats been covered, but a lot of incontinence in bunnies is unfortunately neurological

So an x-ray is the next best cause of action and if that's inconclusive, we'll assume it's incontinence

mrs munkee said:

So an x-ray is the next best cause of action and if that's inconclusive, we'll assume it's incontinence

Click to expand...

I think an x-ray would definitely be the best route, although if they are giving a GA for the x-ray it might be worth having in house bloods taken while she is under
If they are all clear it could well be neurological :?

Been back to vets today. The baytril course finished this morning and still no significant improvement.

Vet felt her bladder again and she instantly urinated. He said he was surprised how easy it was to get her to express. I think he was veering towards neurological problems affecting the muscle control of the sphincter (sp?). He wasn't convinced by calcium problems as I think he would have expected her to show more discomfort and the 'sample' she gave looked normal and healthy.

He was very interested to hear what you guys had all been thinking and suggesting, which was refreshing and he admitted more research and collation of bunny health needed to be established He suggested getting an opinion from other bunny specialists, including someone in Harrogate, whose name I've heard mentioned on here before.

The option of propalin was suggested again if we wanted to try it, but I'm not convinced that's a route to take at the moment.

I've tweaked their diet, adding a little cucumber, taking out kale, reduced their pellets slightly and making sure their greens are well soaked. Minstrel's not impressed with the lack of kale, but I did notice their water bowl hasn't needed filling up quite so regularly and that's just in a couple of days. Of course I'm monitoring them closely

Will continue to play it by ear for the time being.

That will be Francis Hardcourt Brown. She is an excellent bunny vet.

I agree it could certainly be a muscle or nerve problem relating to the bladder :?

I have a bunny that has urine problems. He had them before i rescued him, he was in a terrible mess underneath. One of his problems is that the hole his willy comes out of is very small, so it dosn't come pop out properly and makes him wee down his leg. After a few operations at FHb this problem was eased but not completley cured ( i have to push his willy out daily to keep the hole from shrinking)
Whilst i realise yor bunny is female and wont have this problem i do know the painfull mess this can make of the skin in that area. I found that using a product called shredded white paper that can be bought in large bales has helped to keep his bum a bit drier. I fluff it up so when he uses the litter tray he sinks deeply into the absorbent paper and stops the urine going on his skin.
This can be bought at Lawsons pet feeds at Ferry hill, its under dog bedding.

The other problem with my bun is ,that because he cant pass urine easily. the calcium builds up in his bladder. At FHB she expresses his bladder, as u described the bladder expessed easily, i think this is because bunny is unable to empty his bladder so it feels constantly full. At first the urine is normal and clear then as she keeps on sqeezing (gently!) the calcium starts to be passed. Xrays show calcium in bladders very well.
I am not sure i have said any thing usefull to you on this very long reply but i do understand some of the problems you are having.

I have just read back over your latest post and i see your vet mentions getting advice from FHB, harrogte. Even though my bunny does have excsess calcium FHB never told me to reduce his kale or any other veg, she says the benefit they get from the fluid in the veg compared to the amount of calcium they take in, in her mind does not cause a calcium problem. Infact while he is there for his regular dentals, i have seen boxes of kale deliverd for the hospitalised buns.