What am I doing wrong??

I just don't get it anymore. Pye has been a bloat bunny for a probably about 2 of his 3 years of life and we had him to maybe every 5-6 weeks per episode which was a huge leap from nearly every fortnight at one point. Then in november he did a massive 10 weeks with no sign of any problems and I thought we were on to some sort of winner, however just over three weeks later he was ill again and then again three weeks after that and tonight its just less than a week. I feel like I'm failing him and I'm scared to leave him for 5 minutes.

In the morning he gets maybe 10 pellets of burgess and then about an hour after when I'm leaving for work he gets some spring greens and a bit of carrot (he has nethie in him so i get paranoid about making him chew on stuff). He gets another 4-5 bits of burgess with some pro fibre at about 6pm and then nothing till his beloved biscuit at 9pm. At bedtime (11ish) he gets more greens and another bit of carrot. his hay is excel herbage which is available in probably too excessive amounts but I took away the redigrass cos I read that could be a cause of bloat.

I've been through different options with the vets which is where the pro fibre came from and now we are at a loss. Tonight we have decided to give him 0.5ml of the metoclopromide syrup every day to see if a constant stimulant will do any good. I have about 3 weeks supply to see how he goes with it and also to see how much he hates me by the end of it (he is not a cuddly bun).

If anyone can offer any advice, point out how stupid I've been and rip me to shreds, I really care less I just want my baby boy to stop going through this so often. I realise he'll not be cured and I am more than willing to do whatever it takes for the rest of his hopefully long and happy life.

Sorry for the long post, I'm so stressed and to the point where I just want to cry in a heap in the corner.

Hi, sorry to hear of Pye's troubles I would cut out the veg twice a day, certainly the carrot as its high in sugar which could cause stomach upset. Offer more fibre in his diet, I wouldn't offer excel hay alone (my buns love it) try more of a selection to see if that helps. Hay should be available at all times.

Some buns have a problem with excel pellets although I never experienced any, might be worth gradually changing his pellets over to a different brand.Sending vibes for the little guy

ive been told by 3 different vets Alvin is a prone bunny, nothing we do will change the fact there will be some trigger at some point and as long as we have the treatment its the best we can do.. oh and not to panic too (havent managed that yet lol)

one vet compared it to humans with iffy tummies, its the way we are born..

Alvin is on exactly the same diet as pearl and she doesnt have tummy issues. i NEVER vary the diet yet it still happens, there even a chance the drop in temp sets him off, he snuggles up moves less and the gut just slows

please dont blame yourself.. and take comfort in the knowledge had your bunny found other carers then he may well be dead by now.. its what gets me through the upset over Alvin, hes alive because i love him and will fight for his life... so how can i be doing something wrong

I'm sorry your bun is a recurrent stasisb/bloat bun There are quite a few of us with buns like this.

Gastric stasis and bloat are not always the primary cause but more a symptom of other hidden illnesses. There are several things to consider:
Pain - does bun have a pain anywhere in his body? Even very low-grade dental pain can be sufficient to trigger an episode. Hormones released during pain and stress have a directly negative effect on gut motility. So stress is another factor to consider... this can be something major like moving house, or minor such as a change in bun's routine, visitors to the house etc.
There are other factors too: large amounts of fur ingested can slow the gut down, although bunnies are designed to consume and pass fur, and often it is the gut slowing down from another factor that causes fur to build up in the intestinal tract and obstruct, a sudden heavy moult can be too much for bun's normal motions to cope with. Lack of adequate exercise is another predisposing factor. Buns are designed to be constantly on alert and in motion with much activity in their awake times of the day. Bowel smooth muscle motility seems to be highly dependent on exercise and motion.
Some buns with recurrent stasis have been found to have a reduced or poor neurological innervation to their gut. Poor innervation and/or poor feedback from the autonomic nervous system can predispose bun to this condition.
Bloat and stasis go hand in hand although one can occur without the other, but more importantly caecal health seems to be directly related to gut motility and vice versa. This is why very often a dietary change is all that is needed to reduce bun's predisposition to this horrible illness, however, even a bun in perfect caecal health with a vigorous gut motility can fall foul of pain and stress triggers sadly. Very often however there is an underlying cause (my bun has potential intestinal scarring from a coccidiosis infection at the RSPCA). One vet has found a narrowed and acute angled ileo-caecal junction in a bun prone to bloat and stasis.

What we did for our bun and found extremely helpful in reducing episodes was the following:
We removed pellets totally from his diet as they are in my opinion too starchy/high in carbohydrates and will predispose to an unbalanced caecal flora, ours could not tolerate them so we cut them out. Buns are designed to eat grass - so we feed exclusively hay and other high fibre vegetation and vegetables. We use a very high fibre coarse timothy rich hay locally grown in the UK from here http://www.willowwarren.co.uk/trh_ours.asp (it is pretty expensive stuff but we feel worth every penny) the coarseness and timothy content and variety of grasses in it really stretch the gut wall and bulk up droppings. To this we add a variety of other hays: Burns green oat hay, Burns organic mountain hay and Oxbow Timothy, and we do this daily. I change or top up the hay 3-4 times a day. They also have 2 handfuls daily of mixed dried herbs.
Buns on no pellets need a strict veg feeding plan - Vit A daily is essential (brassicas and other leafy greens) and 3-4 different veg daily, built up slowly over months to allow the caecum to colonise appropriately, not feeding any veg that causes dysbiosis (excess caecotrophs) and steering away from starchy or watery human veg - carrots are high in sugar and should be a tiny treat occasionally only. The closer you can stick to a wild diet the better, grass, leaves, astringent weeds etc. Leafy green veg are always better than root veg. Cabbage is renound for upsetting some buns. You need to work out your bun's caecal passing time to be able to work out which veg causes upset. 24-72 hrs is normal. A bun with good motility will have it down to 24 hours or less.

Following an episode of stasis/bloat we continue gut motility medication (both Metclopramide - for the upper gut and Ranitidine - for the lowergut) for 5 days AFTER bun's droppings and eating has returned to normal. Hypomotility of the gut in stasis prone rabbits can persist for up to 2 weeks. I suspect that your bun is not having recurrent episodes but in fact a resurgence of his original episode and simply his bowel motility has not yet returned completely to normal. The one time I did not follow this rule my bun had a recurrent episode within the 2 weeks.

Keep routine as constant as possible, and stress to a minimum, car travel, strangers in the house, leaving bun overnight (they find this stressful if a house bun as become attached emotionally to their human carers) and in fact we got him a bunny friend and it made a huge difference - allowed us to leave him more during the day or overnight knowing he would not miss us so much with a bunny to snuggle with.
I hope that helps - i'm sure i've forgotten something! :wave:

i put my pair onto 1/2 a shared carrot each day because everyone bangs on about how bad kale is :?

maybe i need to learn how to look after bunnies myself

I would leave out the carrot and greens and see how he goes and then maybe reintriduce it again in small amounts. If my Dandelion has celery then he gets gas but it never bothers the others. One of my buns didn;t get on with excel pellets either. I don't think there's a definitive answer and each bun is different so you have to see which works best for your boy.

The reason I said in my post to cut out carrot is because my bun mowgli has a delicate tummy and carrot upsets his stomach. My post wasn't meant to cause offence, just trying to offer help but every bun is different and Pye's problem may not not be diet related and whatever I suggested may have already been tried. I didn't say that anyone wasn't looking after their bunnies :?

foofoo said:

The reason I said in my post to cut out carrot is because my bun mowgli has a delicate tummy and carrot upsets his stomach. My post wasn't meant to cause offence, just trying to offer help but every bun is different and Pye's problem may not not be diet related and whatever I suggested may have already been tried. I didn't say that anyone wasn't looking after their bunnies :?

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I'm sure your post didn't cause offence. The OP asked for advice and you gave it :? I don't understand :? Infact what I suggested was very similar. Feeding is all down to trial and error and all buns are different.

foofoo said:

The reason I said in my post to cut out carrot is because my bun mowgli has a delicate tummy and carrot upsets his stomach. My post wasn't meant to cause offence, just trying to offer help but every bun is different and Pye's problem may not not be diet related and whatever I suggested may have already been tried. I didn't say that anyone wasn't looking after their bunnies :?

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no not offended i promise, its just i went to carrot weeks ago because kale was being slated by RU :lol::lol::lol: now i think i should lose the carrot and i dont know what to replace it with :? what ever i do Alvin gets stasis and im fairly certain its not diet related because its months between episodes and i dont rotate veg like some do.. its the same all the time and he gets stasis overnight usually and refusing breakfast veg is how i know hes poorly...

just confusing i think... dont feed this, dont feed that, prone or not :?

i feel for the OP because i have this same worry daily myself and i cant offer proper advice because i have no idea myself really

eta - there was two posts saying no to carrot, yet the list for ok calcium lists carrot as ok.. i werent really reacting to anyone in particular, just the carrot which i thought was a good idea and now it was probavbly my fault alvin got stasis this weekend.... sorry if i upset anyone

donnamt said:

eta - there was two posts saying no to carrot, yet the list for ok calcium lists carrot as ok.. i werent really reacting to anyone in particular, just the carrot which i thought was a good idea and now it was probavbly my fault alvin got stasis this weekend.... sorry if i upset anyone

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Sorry

It was NOT your fault Alvin got stasis this wknd. It is impossible to know what the cause was sometimes and more often than not it is a complicated combination of factors.
I do all the things I preach and my bun still gets stasis/bloat sometimes - unfortunately with some buns it is inevitable despite our best efforts.

No one really knows exactly why bloat/stasis happens. We only know some of the triggers and so all we can do is minimise those.
If Alvin can't have too much calcium or starchy veg then how about the following:
Some cabbage/spring greens, brocoli, mint, basil, thyme, rosemary, coriander, pea tops, pea pods (mangetout/sugarsnap), a little sweet pepper (a little less starchy than carrots and high in vit C), watercress, radish tops, carrot tops in moderation (high in calcium but never had a problem with it personally, Kale I did) etc. those are the ones that come to mind that I buy/grow for my buns. :wave:

donnamt said:

no not offended i promise, its just i went to carrot weeks ago because kale was being slated by RU :lol::lol::lol: now i think i should lose the carrot and i dont know what to replace it with :? what ever i do Alvin gets stasis and im fairly certain its not diet related because its months between episodes and i dont rotate veg like some do.. its the same all the time and he gets stasis overnight usually and refusing breakfast veg is how i know hes poorly...

just confusing i think... dont feed this, dont feed that, prone or not :?

i feel for the OP because i have this same worry daily myself and i cant offer proper advice because i have no idea myself really

eta - there was two posts saying no to carrot, yet the list for ok calcium lists carrot as ok.. i werent really reacting to anyone in particular, just the carrot which i thought was a good idea and now it was probavbly my fault alvin got stasis this weekend.... sorry if i upset anyone

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Sorry I thought your post was aimed at me No upset caused It is confusing and I'm having the same troubles with Mowgli, he can be fine one minute then be ill with stomach pain the next. I'm sure it wasn't your fault Alvin got stasis and your doing the best you can x

dont want to hijack the thread further but i already give savoy, greens and broccoli.. kale or carrots was just to bulk it up so i didnt get dirty looks when i put a small bowl of veg down.. maybe. i used to feed watercress and stuff like that but the vet said to feed the more high vibre veg so i got rid of all them yummies

i do give a tiny chunk of banana in the morning now too to appolosige to pearl for the drugs and keep the potassium up but even before that alvin had 4 stasis episodes so cant be that :?..

think ill just have another look at the allowed veg list and try something else in the new year.... wish they could tell us what makes them poorly tho

sorry for thread-jacking but as i said i have the same fear daily like the OP.. and i cant help but blame myself, so i have to beleive its the way hes built or id go crazy :shock:

foofoo said:

Sorry I thought your post was aimed at me No upset caused It is confusing and I'm having the same troubles with Mowgli, he can be fine one minute then be ill with stomach pain the next. I'm sure it wasn't your fault Alvin got stasis and your doing the best you can x

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hehe nope carrot only, that and kale they are trying to kill me (or Alvin)... i like nicking it when i chop it up too

wow thank you so much, I now have a lot more research to do! Its not nice to know so many go through this (I have spent many hours on the forum so I know its very common) but its very nice to have the support.

I have tried Pye on other hay in the past, his fav used to be the burns oat hay until i ordered two packs and they were both riddled with mould, that was when i raced to the shops and started him on the herbage which he loves. He is a super picky bun, he knows what he likes and thats it! I have introduced other veg in the past (pepper, kale, chicory) but he wouldn't even smell it. He's had burgess, greens and carrot since he was little and it wasn't till he was about 1 that the problems started. Because of his problems I've been very wary about any diet change so things have always been introduced super slowly and in small amounts (even his little nethie wife!) but the problems just keep coming. I'm still a bit wary about giving him metaclop daily but if it helps I'll try anything. I'll try him with some of the hay suggested and cut his veg and pellets down to see how it goes. Money isn't an issue, I'll starve before my two miss out on anything (my last lot of birthday money went on the third hutch extension and most of my meagre savings have gone on numerous trips to the emergency vets!)

Pye's fine again now. I've learnt the signs so quick now that if I can get him to the vets quick enough he's begging for food within an hour or so and wondering what all the fuss is about! My biggest worry is that I'm not there to spot it early which i think is why i now lead the happy hermit existence...

Thank you for all the suggestions and support. If I ever figure out what the hell is going on I'll let you know, until then, I'll stick to ripping my hair out and developing a nice ulcer!

Jenefina said:

Thank you for all the suggestions and support. If I ever figure out what the hell is going on I'll let you know, until then, I'll stick to ripping my hair out and developing a nice ulcer!

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yeah ill join you on that one :wave::wave: