Sudden fight again - U/D post 26 - Things gone bad

Starbuck and Fay have been what I would call "happily bonded" for a week and a halfish now. They have been cuddling up, all loved up together, sharing food, grooming each other etc.

But then this morning, for what seemed to be no apparent reason, they had a little scrap. Luckily nothing major, mostly just chasing and fur pulling, but we dont know why after over a week of bliss.

They got sprayed with water and have calmed down since then (this was at 7am) so all is settled again.

We were hoping to start increasing their space soon as we felt things were going so well. But now may have to rethink this - unless it was boredom with current limited space and no toys that caused the fight? But have only just begun to think things are 'safe' enough to give them more space.

Any ideas as to why this happened and what we should now do?

Why can't you give them toys? When i bonded my pair they had neutral toys to provide distraction and help dissipate any boredom/frustration. How small a space are they in?

This happened to us about a week ago. We decided it was because they were getting cabin fever. Both of them had been used to being pretty much free range in the house before bonding and then they have been in a confined area together for 2 weeks. We decided to increase their space fairly quickly and it worked! They have been fine since. Im not saying its the answer and some may suggest it is a reason to still keep them in a small space but it worked for us.

We can give them toys, we have plenty ready for them, I think we just havent yet because we didnt want them to get territorial over anything or give them a reason to fight over stuff.

They have been in one of those 8 panel pens since we started bonding them 2 weeks ago. We let them out for a run together in the whole of the double bedroom two nights ago (12ft x 11ft approx) and were planning to start increasing their space in there permanently bit by bit over the next few nights.

Do you think it could be boredom that has started the fight then?

LMc said:

This happened to us about a week ago. We decided it was because they were getting cabin fever. Both of them had been used to being pretty much free range in the house before bonding and then they have been in a confined area together for 2 weeks. We decided to increase their space fairly quickly and it worked! They have been fine since. Im not saying its the answer and some may suggest it is a reason to still keep them in a small space but it worked for us.

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Yes this is what I am thinking now. It would definitely make sense.

I think we may increase their space then now, I was just wondering if experienced bonders might say - keep them in a small area until they have properly calmed down - but this may be exacerbating the problem.

We will try that this afternoon then and I will keep my fingers crossed that this is the answer. I cant say I would blame them as they have been pretty cooped up

I'm not experienced in bonding rabbits but, I would say they probably need to stretch their legs and they will flop together hopefully

helgalush said:

Do you think it could be boredom that has started the fight then?

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In my personal opinon - which others will disagree with - YES! But I would increase it slowly so stick to one room in the house first - then open up another etc a few days later. I expect they are frustrated and taking it out on each other.

prettylupin said:

In my personal opinon - which others will disagree with - YES! But I would increase it slowly so stick to one room in the house first - then open up another etc a few days later. I expect they are frustrated and taking it out on each other.

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I don't disagree I think it seems logical - they have shown you they are OK with each other and now they are telling you they are bored I reckon.

prettylupin said:

In my personal opinon - which others will disagree with - YES! But I would increase it slowly so stick to one room in the house first - then open up another etc a few days later. I expect they are frustrated and taking it out on each other.

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Thank you - I really appreciate your honesty.
We will do it now!

If they get into a scuffle when you give them the whole room to run around then you may need to separate and rebond back in a smaller space and I would be inclined to use a different neutral territory - move the bonding pen somewhere else and clean it to make it fresh again. We used lino under the bonding pen which was wipe clean. This will also mean using brand new neutral trays and toys again etc in the pen if you have to go back a step.

Before you let them out into the room to run around - I would be inclined to make sure as much of the stuff in the room is also neutral to an extent. This is the equivalent of putting newly bonded buns into a neutralised joint hutch after bonding.
Fingers crossed it is just a frustration with space issue.

ETA just out of interest could anything else have happened to cause the scuffle? new smells, people or changes in the house? Newly bonded buns are still quite fragile, it takes months for the bond to really settle down into happy long term companionship.

helgalush said:

I was just wondering if experienced bonders might say - keep them in a small area until they have properly calmed down - but this may be exacerbating the problem.

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I think if you were only a day or two into bonding then yes I would keep them together in the neutral space til it settled down, but a week in a tiny pen for any bun used to more space is enough to drive any rabbit crazy in my opinion. But i'm probably not the best person to ask as I didn't use this method to bond my pair. In between our bonding sessions our buns took it in turns to have full use of the lawn and a room in the house separately so lack of exercise and the frustrations associated with it were never an issue for us. We bonded using a very different method done daily with increased time spent together in a bonding pen in neutral territory. I don't agree with intense methods but this is just me and my opinion and I fully appreciate that in rescues where there are space and time limitations the intense method is far preferrable and clearly works as well.

prettylupin said:

I think if you were only a day or two into bonding then yes I would keep them together in the neutral space til it settled down, but a week in a tiny pen for any bun used to more space is enough to drive any rabbit crazy in my opinion. But i'm probably not the best person to ask as I didn't use this method to bond my pair. In between our bonding sessions our buns took it in turns to have full use of the lawn and a room in the house separately so lack of exercise and the frustrations associated with it were never an issue for us. We bonded using a very different method done daily with increased time spent together in a bonding pen in neutral territory. I don't agree with intense methods but this is just me and my opinion and I fully appreciate that in rescues where there are space and time limitations the intense method is far preferrable and clearly works as well.

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I like this method totally agree.

prettylupin said:

If they get into a scuffle when you give them the whole room to run around then you may need to separate and rebond back in a smaller space and I would be inclined to use a different neutral territory - move the bonding pen somewhere else and clean it to make it fresh again. We used lino under the bonding pen which was wipe clean. This will also mean using brand new neutral trays and toys again etc in the pen if you have to go back a step.

Before you let them out into the room to run around - I would be inclined to make sure as much of the stuff in the room is also neutral to an extent. This is the equivalent of putting newly bonded buns into a neutralised joint hutch after bonding.
Fingers crossed it is just a frustration with space issue.

ETA just out of interest could anything else have happened to cause the scuffle? new smells, people or changes in the house? Newly bonded buns are still quite fragile, it takes months for the bond to really settle down into happy long term companionship.

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Thank you this is great advice. We may start with half the room, as this is bigger than what they currently have, and not so much as the whole room. We will also add some new toys that we have bought recently (so not any that they had when they first came). Then if things go well we will gradually increase it over the next few days. I think we will buy some lino as well.

I dont think there is anything else that could have caused the scuffle apart from a) a plastic cat bed thing which we have been using as a hay bale (we have now removed it and wonder if perhaps we are better giving them one each) and b) a thorough clean yesterday morning of the pen area, but they have been having this regularly anyway. :?

prettylupin said:

I think if you were only a day or two into bonding then yes I would keep them together in the neutral space til it settled down, but a week in a tiny pen for any bun used to more space is enough to drive any rabbit crazy in my opinion. But i'm probably not the best person to ask as I didn't use this method to bond my pair. In between our bonding sessions our buns took it in turns to have full use of the lawn and a room in the house separately so lack of exercise and the frustrations associated with it were never an issue for us. We bonded using a very different method done daily with increased time spent together in a bonding pen in neutral territory. I don't agree with intense methods but this is just me and my opinion and I fully appreciate that in rescues where there are space and time limitations the intense method is far preferrable and clearly works as well.

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Good point, I was just wary of upsetting the balance too soon!

As a first-timer I've just gone with the majority of people's advice and experience, but it is certainly something I would consider for the future (if I ever dare to try bonding again!!)

I'll update later to let you know if it goes ok/any probs. Thank you.

helgalush said:

As a first-timer I've just gone with the majority of people's advice and experience, but it is certainly something I would consider for the future (if I ever dare to try bonding again!!)

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There is nothing wrong with the method that most people use at all, it is just not what we chose to do, you should always do what you feel most confident and happy with and what is most practical for your situation, as long as the crucial ingredients of neutrality and neutering and recovery etc and both buns in good health etc are all there.

I certainly would not use the method we used for our pair for a threesome + (due to redirected aggression issues) and obviously for bonding groups the slow method is neither practical or suitable either, and in these situations the fast method is clearly the most appropriate and safest. It's about weighing up risks and how this fits with natural rabbity instinct. I just want to clarify that a slow method also requires buns to be in visual and scent range even when separate otherwise there is likely to be more stress this way too with constant separation, although I don't believe from my own observations that bonds occur instantly....like any human relationship they are built up and adjust over time. This is just my opinion.

Just to update:

We've given them more space and a few toys, as well as a proper big run around for about 4 hours earlier. There were some amazing binkies which is lovely to see. There were a few chasing moments but I think this is down to Starbuck's deafness and being easily startled.

Fingers crossed we can increase their space even more so that they have the whole double bedroom soon. Thanks for the advice.

prettylupin said:

I think if you were only a day or two into bonding then yes I would keep them together in the neutral space til it settled down, but a week in a tiny pen for any bun used to more space is enough to drive any rabbit crazy in my opinion. But i'm probably not the best person to ask as I didn't use this method to bond my pair. In between our bonding sessions our buns took it in turns to have full use of the lawn and a room in the house separately so lack of exercise and the frustrations associated with it were never an issue for us. We bonded using a very different method done daily with increased time spent together in a bonding pen in neutral territory. I don't agree with intense methods but this is just me and my opinion and I fully appreciate that in rescues where there are space and time limitations the intense method is far preferrable and clearly works as well.

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I completely see your point but my four started to fight everytime i gave them more space. It was only by reducing it again until they were more settled that i could increase it again, i was worried about restricting their space when they were used to so much so i ignored advice to restrict it and paid for it, took much longer to bond my buns because of this. Also seperating my buns with bars basically put me back to square one when i put them back together again. The advice i have received from rescues on retricting space and not seperating has proved to be spot on in my experience, if it wasnt for them i wouldnt have managed to bond my group. I think its more about knowing the right time to give more space. I gave mine neutralised toys in their cage.

Unfortunately with the more space there was more chasing, fur pulling and aggression. I ended up having to sleep in their room with them but have hardly slept because they wouldnt settle. At about 6 am and with hardly and sleep, I decided that it was time to reduce the space again so they are back in the bonding pen again now.

I think we need to try to give them the more space but instead of giving them a larger space and increasing the amount of space they have, I think we will try larger space but increasing the amount of time they have in it.

Its so confusing and so hard to know what to do sometimes. I dont want to give up on them as when they have been loved up it has been lovely but last night/this morning I was ready to think about getting them different partners!!! :roll:

helgalush said:

There were a few chasing moments but I think this is down to Starbuck's deafness and being easily startled.

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I think this might have been an indicator that things needed to go back a step... the chasing would have made me wary about any more space and I would probably have gone back to the bonding pen at this point, but you can only try. To be honest I probably wouldn't have given them quite so long to run around either - clearly they needed to burn off some steam...but 4 hours is a lot longer than I would have given them, although if they were already chasing a little when given more space then it might have been wise to stop there. But please don't take offence i'm not criticising you at all - i'm merely explaining what I would have done, but then as I said earlier I really am not the best person to ask as it is not a method I am comfortable with as I still believe that frustration over being cooped up in a small pen for such a long period of time takes its toll which is why I didn't use it, and therefore I have no experience of it and the behaviour it induces, I can only guess at these based on what I know of rabbit behaviour. I think it likely that once you have begun using a method it is probably best to stick to it.... whatever situation has been set up and the responses from the rabbits after being in this situation for some time will likely be very different from the situation and responses from a pair of rabbits using a different method.... behaviour changes according to stimuli and stress....
I'm sorry it didn't work out, I think it sensible you continue with the advice you have received already based on the technique you are already using, clearly switching technique half way does not work and I should have realised this I am sorry.

I would also appreciate it if other members who comment on my posts (not the OP) would read everything i have written as I did post the following:
[I certainly would not use the method we used for our pair for a threesome + (due to redirected aggression issues) and obviously for bonding groups the slow method is neither practical or suitable either, and in these situations the fast method is clearly the most appropriate and safest. It's about weighing up risks and how this fits with natural rabbity instinct. I just want to clarify that a slow method also requires buns to be in visual and scent range even when separate otherwise there is likely to be more stress this way too with constant separation, although I don't believe from my own observations that bonds occur instantly....like any human relationship they are built up and adjust over time. This is just my opinion.]

Helgalush I do hope it all works out in the end. Keeping calm yourself will always have a positive effect as our own human anxieties are easily picked up on by our furry friends. Good luck