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Metaclopromide?

vicki267

Mama Doe
I know on here certain do's and dont's are advised but since yesterday I've been looking into the use of it and it seems many people are now advising against it regardless of the problem.

What are your thoughts?

If we didn't use metaclopromide what other drugs/treatmments could be used?
 
I know on here certain do's and dont's are advised but since yesterday I've been looking into the use of it and it seems many people are now advising against it regardless of the problem.

What are your thoughts?

If we didn't use metaclopromide what other drugs/treatmments could be used?

Actually my vet uses it happily and I have to say that without it I certainly believe that we could have lost Poppy to her impaction a few months ago - we used both metclopramide and zantac alongside fluids and pain relief to shift her impaction...it was touch and go....
I have also used it many times with my stasis bunny with equally positive results. I would be cautious about not using it if the symptoms were appropriate to be honest. The only occasion I wouldn't would be with a true obstruction. You could say that Poppy's impaction had turned into an obstruction in a sense....she was acutely bloated also...but the combination of therapies worked for her. I'm trying to be careful here, I can sense you are looking for answers as to perhaps why you lost your bun so tragically. I'm so sorry for your loss....every case is very different and so is every bun...I think at the end of the day you have to trust your vet and their expert knowledge which is far more indepth than any of us can achieve without the same training. I'm so sorry for your loss. I would use metclopramide without hesitation if the situation deemed it appropriate. :)
 
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I made that sound like my vet uses metclopramide indiscriminately! :oops: He doesn't at all...he bases his decision on experience, examination and history and good clinical judgement when the circumstances are appropriate for its use! :wave:
 
My Vet uses it if clinical examination of the Bun indicates it to be appropriate.

She would not use it if there was any chance that the Bun may have an obstruction. She would Xray Bun first,especially if the Bun's stomach was very distended. A common place for obstruction is the outlet from the stomach to the intestines (the pylorus). If the stomach is bloated due to an obstructed pylorus then giving metoclopromide could cause the stomach to rupture. But in your Bun's case your Vet said there was no obstruction

After obtaining permission from my Vet I tend to rely more on Ranitidine. Although it is primarily an anti GI ulcer drug it also has the effect of increasing the rate of gastric emptying, but not in the same way as Metoclopromide.
Ranitidine's anti-ulcer action is very useful as gastric ulceration occurs rapidly in a Bun with GI hypomotility/Ileus/Bloat

My Vet still uses Metoclopromide routinely post GAs. But I have heard that some Vets actually use Ranitidine instead.

AFAIK Metoclop' works on the upper GI tract and Ranitidine's prokinetic properties work lower down. So when the two drugs are given simultaneously they have a synergetic effect.

There is another drug called Prepulsid (Cisapride) whose pharmokinetics are apparently similar to those of Ranitidine as far as gut motility goes. That is all way above my head though !! (Rodneyvet and Marie where are you !!)

Prepulsid can be difficult for Vets to obtain as it was withdrawn from use in Humans due to reports of it causing cardiac problems.

After nearly losing Jake to a very severe bloat on Sunday I firmly believe that BUSCOPAN saved his life. Buscopan is not a prokinetic so it is not of any use in getting the guts moving. It does the opposite and is an anti-spasmodic. In bloat this may well be what's needed initially.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/100000395.html

Jake was also given Ranitidine, Gripe water,SQ fluids and Buprenorphine.

As important as prokinetics are in treating GI hypomotility my unqualified opinion is that fluids are also essential. Once the GI tract closes down the lining of the guts starts to absorb water from the gut contents. These then dry out and can lead to an obstruction. Keeping the gut walls hydrated (with SQ or IV fluids) reduces the rate of water absorption from the ingesta.
 
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As important as prokinetics are in treating GI hypomotility my unqualified opinion is that fluids are also essential. Once the GI tract closes down the lining of the guts starts to absorb water from the gut contents. These then dry out and can lead to an obstruction. Keeping the gut walls hydrated (with SQ or IV fluids) reduces the rate of water absorption from the ingesta.

:thumb: the use of fluids can never be stressed enough - I would have to say that in my limited experience of 2 rabbits to Jane's 41 in these situations that fluids both orally and sub-cut given together have been the 'turning point' in achieving recovery in both my bunnies alongside adequate pain relief.
 
:thumb: the use of fluids can never be stressed enough - I would have to say that in my limited experience of 2 rabbits to Jane's 41 in these situations that fluids both orally and sub-cut given together have been the 'turning point' in achieving recovery in both my bunnies alongside adequate pain relief.

I agree with this and the quote by Jane but am a little confiused as in an article I read by FHB it stated that non obstructuve bloat is usually caused by the build up of saliva in the stomach which starts to stagnate and releasing gas as rabbits constantly salivate even when they are not eating:? So I am wondering how the stomach dries out if it is full of saliva?
 
I find it works well as a precautionary measure after a GA or dental work, and is good for buns who have stopped eating due to gas.
 
I agree with this and the quote by Jane but am a little confiused as in an article I read by FHB it stated that non obstructuve bloat is usually caused by the build up of saliva in the stomach which starts to stagnate and releasing gas as rabbits constantly salivate even when they are not eating:? So I am wondering how the stomach dries out if it is full of saliva?

Its not just the actual stomach wall that needs to remain hydrated but the entire GI tract. Otherwise ingesta in the intestines, caecum etc will dehydrate and become a potential risk for causing further obstruction I think :?

So if the bloat resolves and the stomach empties I guess the dehydrated ingesta further down will just cause more problems maybe :?

All I know is that in the more severe cases of Ileus/bloat I have seen the Rabbit has greatly benifitted from SQ or IV fluids.
SQs are no good if the Rabbit is in vascular shut down though as they wont be absorbed.
 
As I understand it, rabbits are pretty unique in that if they are dehydrated (e.g. because they have stopped eating/drinking while in stasis), their body absorbs fluid from the GI tract to maintain the hydration - so I guess even a rabbit that is salivating will still be losing that moisture through this mechanism, just leaving the gloopy part of the saliva. This is one of the reasons that GI stasis can get so bad so quickly, because the longer the bun doesn't eat, the drier the contents of its stomach and intestines become, and the harder it is to get them to move freely.

I totally agree on the hydration point - my vet routinely gives s/c fluids to rabbits in surgery to help get things going again, and even my little poorly Santa tends to recover very quickly :)
 
Thanks for your replies, it's an interesting topic.

This isn't to do with losing Jet, although her being ill made me think about it. I just ideally would like to know why/why not the vets are giving certain meds.

I'm certainly not against metaclop as it likely saved Arnie's life when he went into stasis but as has been proved it may have also been the demise of many a bun and handed out far too readily.

Jane, those meds you mention are very intriging and I will definately look into those more, would all vets keep them in stock and "should" I ever disagree to a vet using metaclop in the future are they likely to use at my request?

I dont want anyone to worry reading this though - By all means do as I do and research the use of these drugs but the vets are qualified and the use of metaclopromide has SAVED many lives :D
 
Its not just the actual stomach wall that needs to remain hydrated but the entire GI tract. Otherwise ingesta in the intestines, caecum etc will dehydrate and become a potential risk for causing further obstruction I think :?

So if the bloat resolves and the stomach empties I guess the dehydrated ingesta further down will just cause more problems maybe :?

All I know is that in the more severe cases of Ileus/bloat I have seen the Rabbit has greatly benifitted from SQ or IV fluids.
SQs are no good if the Rabbit is in vascular shut down though as they wont be absorbed.

This is also how I understand the process. The stomach itself is not dried out but full of gas and mucus and distended when there is an accompanying bloat. However, not all bloats are secondary to impactions or obstructions and can manifest independently. The cause of these is largely unknown and they are acute and 'true bloat'.
However, when you have an obstruction/impaction or simply a rabbit manifesting ileus leading to full blown gastric stasis - you very often get an associated bloat but not always. I find it interesting that you can have stasis without bloat but not bloat without stasis - which always seems to accompany any bloat. To me this would indicate two separate processes that are largely symbiotic....and have a 'knock on' effect, but which are subject to a whole host of different and interdependent factors.
If the bloat resolves and the stomach empties into the lower GI tract, but the ingesta remains, there is nowhere for it to go....bunny is obstructed and the bloat reoccurs. Poppy's bloat certainly blew up and down over 2 days depending on where we were in the treatment regime. Once the ingesta is rehydrated sufficiently using fluids (a rabbit in systemic shock will need IV fluids as Jane says) you then need to move it out of the way....otherwise it can cause further problems...i.e. the impaction remains... and the stomach bloats up again as the 'primary cause' of the bloat if not an isolated bloat case has not been dealt with. Even if the cause is purely a non-obstructive stasis....restablishing normal gut function appears to be crucial as so many systems in the rabbit body appear to be highly dependent on this one mechanism. Horses and 'colic' to me bear much resemblance. Bunny tummies seem to be the epicentre of bunny health.

Whatever is the cause of the gastric 'interruption' if you like, be it bloat, obstruction, impaction, pain or stress related ileus, a chain of events has begun. The guts stop moving and can cause an acute bloat of gas in the stomach whatever the physiological causes behind this I suspect fermentation without adequately functioning systems to remove the gas produced, a distended abdomen puts pressure on both respiratory and cardiovascular systems, this in itself is critical. When the guts stop moving the highly colonised caecal flora which are dependent on gut motility also quickly get out of balance and you get an acute dysbiosis which has significant effect on further gut function as part of the feedback loop, and in particular on renal and liver function. If the kidneys can not function properly or bunny goes into acute renal failure then bunny can not maintain blood volume and then you are in trouble. One way to increase blood volume is to absorb fluid back out of the guts....the guts slow further and the mass dehydrates again. If renal output and blood volume can not be maintained bunny goes into systemic and cardiovascular shutdown.

Alongside these processes, stress hormones, catecholamines, released when bunny is in pain and shock both emotionally and systemically act on the autonomic nervous system which controls gut function....they slow it down further - the ingesta stays put. This is why I believe that when appropriate, and there is no risk of rupture, that moving the rehydrated mass along and out of the gut using a gut motility agent, and reestablishing normal gut function is essential to allow the associated bloat to subside and prevent all the other risk factors in the run away chain of events. Therefore to control stress hormone release which further precipitates the events....adequate pain relief is crucial.

It always appears to my inexperienced eyes that once gut function is back under control that this is when bunny starts to recover.
In summary....pain relief, fluids, shifting the gas - gripe water, anti-spasmodics as Jane has found (due to gut innervation which is all part of the feedback loop) and gut motility agents appear to be the way to treat these critical cases. It certainly has worked for both of my buns. :D
 
I too am NOT a vet though....:oops::oops: it's all guesswork... and no doubt full of inaccuracies! :lol:


Ah, but you have a fare bit of medical knowledge ;)

Yes, your description is how I have understood it. But my lack of any medical training and being basically as thick as two short planks means I often tie myself up in knots and get totally confused :oops:
 
Ah, but you have a fare bit of medical knowledge ;)

Yes, your description is how I have understood it. But my lack of any medical training and being basically as thick as two short planks means I often tie myself up in knots and get totally confused :oops:

If my way of thinking matches yours then i'm pretty certain i'm on the right track! :D
I'm now just waiting for Marie or Rodneyvet to blow my guesswork out of the water! :lol: and for Thumps to correct my medicine! :lol:
:D
 
I have just found the article I was referring to in my post on page one, it is by Thomas Robert Hardcourt Brown and published in 2007 :)

It states that " in rabbits saliva is continually produced and water is secreted into the stomach. As a result, obstruction of the small intestine leads to a rapid accumulation of liquid in the stomach and in the small intestine proximal to the site of an obstruction. Fermentation of this static fluid quickly leads to gas formation and painful gastrointestinal dilation, reduced gut motility and secondary ileus. Sequestration ( effectively taken to a third compartment away from the extra and intracellular fluid - bodily fluids outside and inside cells ) of the static fluid results in rapid electrolyte and acid based imbalances as well as hypovolemia ( decreased volume of blood plasma ) "

The article generally talks about obstructive bloat which I know doesn't seem to be the case with Jet.

His treatment discusses pain relief, antiulcer therapy, x-rays, decompression of the stomach ie inserting a tube into the stomach to release the gas, the use of drugs such as metaclopromide but only after x-ray assessment of the blockage and decompression have taken place, fluid therapy and he discusses exploratory surgery.

If you want any more info from it Vicki just give me a shout :D:wave:
 
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